Post Match Discussion: JLT #2 vs St. Kilda

[old dee 23,788]

7 hours ago, puntkick said:

You don't have to vote after 75 years of age doya ?

I will be voting until they carry me out puntkick.

[rjay 24,919]

9 hours ago, BrisbaneDemon said:

Woewodin won a Brownlow for us in 2000, that makes him a champion midfielder....

No...it means he had a great season.

A champion midfielder he was not.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,209]

9 hours ago, BrisbaneDemon said:

Woewodin won a Brownlow for us in 2000, that makes him a champion midfielder....

I assume you're being sarcastic here

[Dr. Gonzo 24,209]

8 hours ago, DemonAndrew said:

i started really supporting the dees about 85. 86. and since then i reckon i could count the champion midfielders we've had with one hand - maybe even just two fingers, in flower and stynes, and i only saw the tail end of robbie's career

players that i thought would become 'champion' mids - i.e. constantly in discussion for all australian if not brownlow contention - but for a variety of reasons never quite did:

• travis johnstone
• glenn lovett
• shane woewodin
• stephen tingay
• todd viney
• nathan jones

Those guys may qualify as club champions but none of them were league champions in the way a Voss, Hird, Buckley, Black, Judd etc were

[Fork 'em 6,983]

Until we win a flag we have no champion anything.

[Deemania since 56 6,634]

13 hours ago, Bonkers said:

Watching on tv I thought that the kicking inside 50 that quarter was just long bombs mostly to the top of the square. Either the forwards weren't leading to space, players kicking the ball I50 weren't looking for shorter options or both. It looked like lazy careless football to me. Others have commented we had our 3rd string midfield at centre bounces, but I think if the delivery was more effiecient we could have matched the saints that qtr. In the final quarter they moved the ball a lot better and lowered their eyes to hit up shorter targets.

We MUST stop long-bombing. It is low-percentage football on a hope and a prayer. If you bomb the ball to the goalsquare, you are off the ground to consider your folly. Forwards must become mobile to space - nothing else will do -  a quick buck return from the long bomb just does not happen. We have uniquely skilled runners, ball-handlers, hand-ballers, foot skills and more. We rarely us them in percentage terms. What team would not want Petracca, Hunt, Harmes, Garlett, Hannan, Fritch, Oliver, Tyson, Salem, ANB. Jones and Bugg, for example, running amok? And, we have others for these roles, as well. The Saints ripped us up from within the 1st and 3rd qtrs because of our pathetic reliance on this negative aspect of our game. Our players were not prepared to run, enabling their opponents to tag, man-up and defend anything we were hoping to achieve. We stopped it, and the Saints - a noted running team, themselves - capitulated under the pressure in the final qtr. For PH.....Ks sake. 

[Deemania since 56 6,634]

11 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

He had the yips for a period last year (kicked 4 points vs NM from memory?) but also kicked some handy goals one in particular against the Crows to start our avalanche when we were down by 4 goals.

Get the Ox to stand with him as advisor for 300 kicks at goal each training session for two months. That'll fix his inaccuracy.

[Diamond_Jim 12,571]

I think you will find that the idea of the "long bomb" is to kick over the defenders and allow the forwards to run onto the ball.

The first Petracca goal came from exactly such a play.

The ball that is no good is the one that is put on the forward's head so to speak that is easily defended

[Deemania since 56 6,634]

2 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

I think you will find that the idea of the "long bomb" is to kick over the defenders and allow the forwards to run onto the ball.

The first Petracca goal came from exactly such a play.

The ball that is no good is the one that is put on the forward's head so to speak that is easily defended

The kick over the defenders head does not work. It is so obvious that it, too, is easily defended forthwith. It would work more often if we had a Rodney Grinter-style deliverer but as yet, we do not. Petracca comes close, yes and he showed it. The only two players who seem to have exploited it were Jakovich and Bennett and both of these did so with their mobility - one in a running trip around town and the other in an aggressive straight line. 

[Elwood 3184 1,301]

In the third quarter we kicked long bombs into a crowded forward line and, with Hogan playing downfield and TMac not there, the result was inevitable.

Plus the fact that the Saints were very good on the rebound when they got the ball out and the result was 6 goals to 1.

 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,209]

1 hour ago, Fork 'em said:

Until we win a flag we have no champion anything.

Disagree, Ablett Snr as an example was a champion without a flag. Same as our own Robbie Flower. Buckley never won a flag. Champion players can exist outside champion teams.

[DV8 2,271]

On 3/9/2018 at 11:07 AM, old dee said:

You are jesting right?

No.  School is out on Hoges in my mind, Re going west at some time. And he will play more midfield time this year, so that opens up places for another tall, from time to time.

That will open up opportunity for Weideman, who will need more games this year to continue his development.

Pedo is more likely in his last year?  at least in the senior side, in 2018.  He may play in 2019 as a backup option?

So we have to get games into Weide during 2018.

 

Beyond 2018, who knows what Hoges will be doing.  So, I posted that as a thought provoking statement. to look further forward, away from what the players do on the field of play.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

13 hours ago, Doodle Dee said:

This may sound premature but perhaps the calls for Hunt to play on wing or in middle may be premature. He still does seem to look like a defender through and through, and like Frost, seems to be more of a straight-line runner. Doesn't seem like a 360 degree player as of yet. But that's really only two JLT games. He's a scintillating player but he could be one of a handful feeling the pressure to hold down a spot, if he doesn't get back to his best within the first few rounds (Though every player has to hold down a spot too)

I said this last year that despite the fact Hunt and Frost are both quick they are both very predictable with their straight line running.

They need to develop a sidestep like Jetta and Hannan.

[george_on_the_outer 7,590]

There will be more of the long bomb scenario utilized to overcome the Richmond manic forward press that them and others will try this season. 

North used it effectively in the first half against the Toiyges in their JLT game because it leaves those pressing stranded, and your own team with numbers downfield.  

And remember these are practice games. It gave us the opportunity to see what Fritsch, Garlett and Bugg the opportunity to show what they could do when Hogan was in a contested situation.  It won't be used all the time, but you have to try it out when 4 points isn't at stake.

[bush demon 2,039]

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Those guys may qualify as club champions but none of them were league champions in the way a Voss, Hird, Buckley, Black, Judd etc were

Any club would have loved to have had Steven Powell or Brian Wilson in the guts. Both great players and ball-winning magnets.

[P-man 13,366]

So I’ve watched it a few times now and and Trac almost defnitely meant that kick to Vince to set up for goal. Yes his eyes went to goal but you can see them divert left at the last moment and he adjusts his kick accordingly. Commentators sold him short. It was quite brilliant. So brilliant in fact that they thought it had to have been a miskick. It wasn’t.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,209]

51 minutes ago, bush demon said:

Any club would have loved to have had Steven Powell or Brian Wilson in the guts. Both great players and ball-winning magnets.

Good players not great. Nowhere near the level of all time greats of the game.

[Deemania since 56 6,634]

1 hour ago, DV8 said:

No.  School is out on Hoges in my mind, Re going west at some time. And he will play more midfield time this year, so that opens up places for another tall, from time to time.

That will open up opportunity for Weideman, who will need more games this year to continue his development.

Pedo is more likely in his last year?  at least in the senior side, in 2018.  He may play in 2019 as a backup option?

So we have to get games into Weide during 2018.

 

Beyond 2018, who knows what Hoges will be doing.  So, I posted that as a thought provoking statement. to look further forward, away from what the players do on the field of play.

The Weed needs lots of games but at what cost? He does have attributes so one must wonder by now if he is really training his heart out to make the improvements for the cut. He needs weeks of aggressive, driven performances in the VFL team and very close mentoring, otherwise we will have another prospective tall held in abeyance season by season. He has a great football heritage upon which he can draw, no doubt. It is time for the Weed to turn the corner. Consistently.

[Deemania since 56 6,634]

57 minutes ago, P-man said:

So I’ve watched it a few times now and and Trac almost defnitely meant that kick to Vince to set up for goal. Yes his eyes went to goal but you can see them divert left at the last moment and he adjusts his kick accordingly. Commentators sold him short. It was quite brilliant. So brilliant in fact that they thought it had to have been a miskick. It wasn’t.

No error in that kick - he meant it as you have observed. Agile, dynamic, great eyes, terrific advantageous decision. And, so quick to so do. Killer instincts....

[Deemania since 56 6,634]

18 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Good players not great. Nowhere near the level of all time greats of the game.

Not champions? Just good players? Those two did it all each week and then some.

[Gator 17,332]

55 minutes ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Not champions? Just good players? Those two did it all each week and then some.

On a scale of 1-10 a champion of the game is a 9-10.  Robert Flower was between a 9-10.

Wilson was a 7 and Powell a 6.  Nowhere near "champions".  For example, I'd put Woewodin at 6.5 for his career.  I'd put his Brownlow year at 8.

Nathan Jones is a 7.

Just my opinion of course and others will differ.

[Deemania since 56 6,634]

13 minutes ago, ProDee said:

On a scale of 1-10 a champion of the game is a 9-10.  Robert Flower was between a 9-10.

Wilson was a 7 and Powell a 6.  Nowhere near "champions".  For example, I'd put Woewodin at 6.5 for his career.  I'd put his Brownlow year at 8.

Nathan Jones is a 7.

Just my opinion of course and others will differ.

 

14 minutes ago, ProDee said:

On a scale of 1-10 a champion of the game is a 9-10.  Robert Flower was between a 9-10.

Wilson was a 7 and Powell a 6.  Nowhere near "champions".  For example, I'd put Woewodin at 6.5 for his career.  I'd put his Brownlow year at 8.

Nathan Jones is a 7.

Just my opinion of course and others will differ.

Yep, it is a fine line but scalar measures often are misleading. I considered the amount of effective work each of these players contributed during their time/s at the Club and rated them both, very highly for that achievement. Of course, Wilson was an exceptional example of that mark. Powell was one of our best quite often, as well. Consequently, I rate them as champions in our team because of their reliability, much like but not at the same level of brilliance and effectiveness as Flower, Hardeman, and the Ox across a timeframe. Still, labelling them as such, in my mind, is better on reflection than 'very good players'. Please note that this is my opinion, too - some of the stuff that I used to go to the footy to see, exclusively at the time. Now, it is for Petracca, Clarrie, Viney and Gawn - all champions in their own right, to my eyes. Carna Dees.

 

 

[In Harmes Way 7,768]

On 09/03/2018 at 8:50 AM, PaulRB said:

Pre-season done, both games won well, no injuries and almost the entire best 22-24 up and running...

Couldn’t have asked for more.

Bring on season 2018.

its gonna be a ripper...

Couldn’t agree more Paul

Not hearing much noise on the boot camp that wasn’t ?. Maybe it wasn’t such a big deal after all????

 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,209]

15 minutes ago, small but forward said:

Couldn’t agree more Paul

Not hearing much noise on the boot camp that wasn’t ?. Maybe it wasn’t such a big deal after all????

 

Until we lose a game then every man and his dog will want to talk about it despite having no idea of how it was really handled

[Dr. Gonzo 24,209]

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

On a scale of 1-10 a champion of the game is a 9-10.  Robert Flower was between a 9-10.

Wilson was a 7 and Powell a 6.  Nowhere near "champions".  For example, I'd put Woewodin at 6.5 for his career.  I'd put his Brownlow year at 8.

Nathan Jones is a 7.

Just my opinion of course and others will differ.

Yep exactly - in my eyes there's a difference between champions of the club and champions of the league. A guy like Neitz is a club champion borderline league champion in my eyes. Garry Lyon was a league champ cruelled by injury. Schwarz could've been if not for injury. No one else comes close since Robbie Flower in my time watching.

When you compare them to the best of the best (Voss, Hird, Judd) guys like Wilson and Woewodin just don't cut it. Powell isn't even in the same ball park though very useful player for us across a few seasons.