WELCOME TO THE MELBOURNE FOOTBALL CLUB - BEN BROWN

[Axis of Bob 10,207]

1 hour ago, Hannibal Inc. said:

Fritsch is a forward for me and a natural one at that.

If only he could kick straight.

He had within 8-10 shots at goal for the year of Dixon, Kennedy and Lynch.  And he played one less game than all of them.

It's no stretch to say he should be kicking between 40-50 goals per year.  That ability is too valuable to be wasted behind the ball where it's far easier to play.

 

I get this argument, and I agree that he's a natural forward. I think the role that best suits him is the role he played in the last two weeks as a defensive tall on intercept markers where he can use his smarts to find space on a non-defensive opponent. I'm just not convinced that his best role is the best role for his team.

[Grimes Times 1,278]

3 hours ago, Axis of Bob said:

I can see that my 'Fritsch in defence' thoughts are about as popular as COVID, so I'll try to give a bit more information to support it (although I may still skip doing so for COVID).

Fritsch has received Brownlow votes twice: two votes in a tight win against Carlton at half back (26 touches, behind T McDonald who kicked 6 before being injured), and two votes in a close loss to the Eagles 2 weeks later (kicking 4 as the second tall forward). He stayed forward in every game after that and we lost them all, despite him kicking goals. He kicked goals as a key forward, with Weid and TMac both missing, rather than as a small forward.

In games he has played as a forward from 2018-now, we were 13-14 with him in defence/not forward, and 16-18 with him forward. We won the game he missed this year against St Kilda in a dour defensive slog. 

There were some excellent articles in the 'Game Plan' thread and I saw this table from one of them, which showed the top 4 teams and their contribution of goals from different players. 

It shows a 'barbell' of goalkickers, where goals are mostly kicked by the talls or smalls, with few being kicked by the mediums (mostly midfieders). This makes sense, because it's so much harder to get space inside 50 in the modern game, so the goals are kicked from big marks (eg, Charlie Dixon, Tom Hawkins, Tom Lynch) or crumbing forward (eg, Robbie Gray, Brendan Parfitt, Daniel Rioli). Then have a look at ours:

We kick twice as many goals from mediums as the others, and hardly any from the talls and smalls. 4 of our top 5 goalkickers were mediums (Fritsch, Petracca, Melksham, Hunt - nobody else kicked double figures other than Weideman). Fritsch kicked 22 from 16 games as our leading goalkicker, so it's clear that what we're doing isn't working. Our best wins were when we lost the inside 50 count because we could kick goals in transition (where mediums thrive) but couldn't kick goals when teams were set against us (where the tall/small setup is better).

We can solve our tall issues because we have some talented players like Jackson, Weid and Petty (and possibly Brown). But Fritsch doesn't help our small forward problems because he isn't a small forward, but instead he'd be a fourth tall forward! He has shown promise as a smooth moving and flexible defender who can intercept and provide drive. I think that's the role he best serves the team in.

 

slightly off topic but can Geelongs tall slow back 6 contain Brisbane small forwards??

[Grimes Times 1,278]

1 hour ago, Hannibal Inc. said:

Fritsch is a forward for me and a natural one at that.

If only he could kick straight.

He had within 8-10 shots at goal for the year of Dixon, Kennedy and Lynch.  And he played one less game than all of them.

It's no stretch to say he should be kicking between 40-50 goals per year.  That ability is too valuable to be wasted behind the ball where it's far easier to play.

 

I think he kicks perfectly straight 95% of the time they just go in the wrong direction. His kicks dont vary left, right or hook. It might be just a simple alignment problem. 

[Skuit 9,166]

2 hours ago, Half forward flank said:

Ben Brown could not give a stuff about MFC. Play for pay. Buyer beware.

Cheers for setting me straight with your blunt inside-knowledge. Clearly I was delusional that some players care about winning. Silly me. 

[Redleg 37,556]

4 hours ago, Axis of Bob said:

I can see that my 'Fritsch in defence' thoughts are about as popular as COVID, so I'll try to give a bit more information to support it (although I may still skip doing so for COVID).

Fritsch has received Brownlow votes twice: two votes in a tight win against Carlton at half back (26 touches, behind T McDonald who kicked 6 before being injured), and two votes in a close loss to the Eagles 2 weeks later (kicking 4 as the second tall forward). He stayed forward in every game after that and we lost them all, despite him kicking goals. He kicked goals as a key forward, with Weid and TMac both missing, rather than as a small forward.

In games he has played as a forward from 2018-now, we were 13-14 with him in defence/not forward, and 16-18 with him forward. We won the game he missed this year against St Kilda in a dour defensive slog. 

There were some excellent articles in the 'Game Plan' thread and I saw this table from one of them, which showed the top 4 teams and their contribution of goals from different players. 

It shows a 'barbell' of goalkickers, where goals are mostly kicked by the talls or smalls, with few being kicked by the mediums (mostly midfieders). This makes sense, because it's so much harder to get space inside 50 in the modern game, so the goals are kicked from big marks (eg, Charlie Dixon, Tom Hawkins, Tom Lynch) or crumbing forward (eg, Robbie Gray, Brendan Parfitt, Daniel Rioli). Then have a look at ours:

We kick twice as many goals from mediums as the others, and hardly any from the talls and smalls. 4 of our top 5 goalkickers were mediums (Fritsch, Petracca, Melksham, Hunt - nobody else kicked double figures other than Weideman). Fritsch kicked 22 from 16 games as our leading goalkicker, so it's clear that what we're doing isn't working. Our best wins were when we lost the inside 50 count because we could kick goals in transition (where mediums thrive) but couldn't kick goals when teams were set against us (where the tall/small setup is better).

We can solve our tall issues because we have some talented players like Jackson, Weid and Petty (and possibly Brown). But Fritsch doesn't help our small forward problems because he isn't a small forward, but instead he'd be a fourth tall forward! He has shown promise as a smooth moving and flexible defender who can intercept and provide drive. I think that's the role he best serves the team in.

 

That is fascinating Bob, I never considered examining the height of goal kickers before.

It does make for an interesting analysis of game styles, versus personnel.

[Grr-owl 1,075]

7 hours ago, Redleg said:

Do you feel the same about the other guy he was doing it with?

No.

Good question, though. But no because Hunt initiated it. If I had a preference for Trac's response, rather than tolerate it, it would be to have seen him turn on Hunt and tell him to f*!# o@# and get his head together. But maybe Trac is too nice. Or perhaps has another forward step to take in that regard. In any case, Trac has credit in the bank for being generally awesome with obvious and scary-good upside potential, whereas if Hunt has an account, it's one of those State Bank ones we had a primary school...

By the way, 40-odd years later, what with the miracle of compound interest working in my favor, my ten cents must be worth a pile... but where is it?

[picket fence 15,101]

1 hour ago, Grimes Times said:

I think he kicks perfectly straight 95% of the time they just go in the wrong direction. His kicks dont vary left, right or hook. It might be just a simple alignment problem. 

Well if thats right then which of the coaches has not  fixed a "Glaring" Error?? Oh, I get it it must have been Dans problem!!

Edited October 16, 2020 by picket fence

[Grr-owl 1,075]

4 hours ago, picket fence said:

Just on Melksham.The coach made him Captain for one game. You are correct and why how he continued to get a game is one element of Goodwin playing clear favourites!

As I understand it, Melksham is an excellent on-field organizer. His role is to organize the forwards, so when he is out of the team, there is nobody to fill that aspect of the role. I think that is why he doesn't get dropped... for better or worse.

[Grr-owl 1,075]

3 hours ago, Turner said:

u read the media too much, have u ever been a part of a football club, these boys are best mates they made a joke together move along, happens everywhere and defines absolutely no one as a person or a footballer and is in no way related to what they dish up between the sirens

 

I don't agree at all. If Goodwin didn't go to Hunt and tell him that is exactly the reason why he doesn't play regularly I would be surprised. The time for playing feelies is in the dressing room after a big win against brutal opposition. They can get a room together after that for all I care. In fact, I'll pay....

Edited October 16, 2020 by Grr-owl

[picket fence 15,101]

5 minutes ago, Grr-owl said:

As I understand it, Melksham is an excellent on-field organizer. His role is to organize the forwards, so when he is out of the team, there is nobody to fill that aspect of the role. I think that is why he doesn't get dropped... for better or worse.

Well, if this is the case then we are the absolute Titanic mrk 2 Going that far down the Abyss that not even shark droppings are found there. I cannot fathom this, His role is Forward Organiser?? Save me!!! Sheeit Footy ability doesn't count but marshalling other players does? Parkkk Me!?

Edited October 16, 2020 by picket fence

[Grr-owl 1,075]

3 hours ago, sue said:

There are a lot of worse things that go on as model behaviour.  Eg. gloating and mocking over an opponent when you get the better of him, and well, Tom Lynch.

Also derided, generally.

[sue 8,418]

2 minutes ago, Grr-owl said:

Also derided, generally.

Not by the commentators sadly.

[Grr-owl 1,075]

3 minutes ago, picket fence said:

Well, if this is the case then we are the absolute Titanic mrk 2 Going that far down the Abyss that not even shark droppings are found there. I cannot fathom this, His role is Forward Organiser?? Save me!!! Sheeit Footy ability doesn't count but marshalling other players does? Parkkk Me!?

It's the truth, PF. Watch him pointing and explaining and moving things about. Goes on every game, from start to finish. In any case, he's not that bad, being a lovely kick that nearly always hits the target. Would like to see a stat on that actually before committing to it.... ? 

[Grr-owl 1,075]

1 minute ago, sue said:

Not by the commentators sadly.

I think they are perhaps a little too aware that there is a gladiatorial aspect to the man-on-man nature of AFL that makes for a spectacle.....

[sue 8,418]

4 minutes ago, Grr-owl said:

I think they are perhaps a little too aware that there is a gladiatorial aspect to the man-on-man nature of AFL that makes for a spectacle.....

There is sufficient spectacle in our football game without the need for the manly gladitorial sniping and mocking actions which seem to excite some of the TV commentators so much. 

[58er 5,607]

4 hours ago, Axis of Bob said:

I can see that my 'Fritsch in defence' thoughts are about as popular as COVID, so I'll try to give a bit more information to support it (although I may still skip doing so for COVID).

Fritsch has received Brownlow votes twice: two votes in a tight win against Carlton at half back (26 touches, behind T McDonald who kicked 6 before being injured), and two votes in a close loss to the Eagles 2 weeks later (kicking 4 as the second tall forward). He stayed forward in every game after that and we lost them all, despite him kicking goals. He kicked goals as a key forward, with Weid and TMac both missing, rather than as a small forward.

In games he has played as a forward from 2018-now, we were 13-14 with him in defence/not forward, and 16-18 with him forward. We won the game he missed this year against St Kilda in a dour defensive slog. 

There were some excellent articles in the 'Game Plan' thread and I saw this table from one of them, which showed the top 4 teams and their contribution of goals from different players. 

It shows a 'barbell' of goalkickers, where goals are mostly kicked by the talls or smalls, with few being kicked by the mediums (mostly midfieders). This makes sense, because it's so much harder to get space inside 50 in the modern game, so the goals are kicked from big marks (eg, Charlie Dixon, Tom Hawkins, Tom Lynch) or crumbing forward (eg, Robbie Gray, Brendan Parfitt, Daniel Rioli). Then have a look at ours:

We kick twice as many goals from mediums as the others, and hardly any from the talls and smalls. 4 of our top 5 goalkickers were mediums (Fritsch, Petracca, Melksham, Hunt - nobody else kicked double figures other than Weideman). Fritsch kicked 22 from 16 games as our leading goalkicker, so it's clear that what we're doing isn't working. Our best wins were when we lost the inside 50 count because we could kick goals in transition (where mediums thrive) but couldn't kick goals when teams were set against us (where the tall/small setup is better).

We can solve our tall issues because we have some talented players like Jackson, Weid and Petty (and possibly Brown). But Fritsch doesn't help our small forward problems because he isn't a small forward, but instead he'd be a fourth tall forward! He has shown promise as a smooth moving and flexible defender who can intercept and provide drive. I think that's the role he best serves the team in.

 

Axis and Redleg What a whole lot of lies lies  and stats!!!

The only reason you can come up with your "Fritsch to Defence " argument is to furnish a dodgy convoluted mass of other Clubs vs our goal scoring from smalls mids and Talls.

The real situation is that each Club has  mixture of all 3 and depending upon their  abilities and numbers the goals are scored accordingly.

It doesn't make one system better than the other OR make Melb worse because  you identify that Fritsch is our problem because he is neither tall nor small!!!IE MEDIUM

The real fact is that Bayley is hands down OUR best forward by goals scored ( 22 from 16 games ) especially as his season total would  have been about 22.24/28 I reckon.

And he has weaknesses in accuracy strength Marking and tackling which if developed properly will make him a 40/45 goal scorer each year.

Fsr more valuable than sky other firward at this stage and nearly as good as Tomac in 2018. We could afford to play Bayley in defence ( in lieu of Lever injured) then but NOW not so.

We need Brown Weid Jacko Petty  to all develop to 30/35 plus goal kickers If they are talls in our Forward line.

Bayley should be selected no matter who is named ie 4 talls inc Jacko or 3 smalls say Spargo Bedford snd Kossie.

Its the mediums that fail us ( other than Bayley ) is Melk Hannan ANB AVB so we don't abandon our best forward but work around him to get the best balance.

BTW Trac is a medium and plays 30/40% forward!!!

Occasionally Bayley May be at FF just to change things a bit ( one on one advantage especially) but that is a luxury only fir say 5% of the time not fir a long time as Goody has gone too often to our detriment.

So I can't imagine our team if we win a flag in the next 4/5 years having Bayley any where else other than firward kicking twice as many as he is now amongst some better figures from both our talls and smalls.

No,No and No to Fritta in defence the old adage is ratbags you the backline and Bayley ain't no ratbag he is an A grader just waiting to bloom up forward.

 

 

[Deemania since 56 6,132]

On 10/13/2020 at 6:43 PM, A F said:

How does a 60+ goal a year forward not suit our game style? This is another artificial barrier. Do people not want to succeed? 

This is a good point, as if Brown would not suit our game style (?); the Kangas played the same opposition as we played across the past two years, yet we did not produce a 60+ goal scoring forward in that time. I'd take him if we could be moderately confident we could deliver the ball to him into the spaces in front of goal and kicking range as he is a great, straight kick in anyone's language. Just imagine, we might get it to him 40-50 times a season - it may not be 60+ goals a season but who would not be happy with 35-40 six--pointers from one player? Might teach the Weed what to do if we are retentive enough to keep him. Then again, we might just concentrate on Brown's existing skillset and develop his body for improved strength.

[picket fence 15,101]

11 minutes ago, Deemania since 56 said:

This is a good point, as if Brown would not suit our game style (?); the Kangas played the same opposition as we played across the past two years, yet we did not produce a 60+ goal scoring forward in that time. I'd take him if we could be moderately confident we could deliver the ball to him into the spaces in front of goal and kicking range as he is a great, straight kick in anyone's language. Just imagine, we might get it to him 40-50 times a season - it may not be 60+ goals a season but who would not be happy with 35-40 six--pointers from one player? Might teach the Weed what to do if we are retentive enough to keep him. Then again, we might just concentrate on Brown's existing skillset and develop his body for improved strength.

We would need Jaheesus H himself with our flawed and suspect game style to kick goals and not even then would I be confident!

[Binmans PA 25,996]

2 hours ago, Axis of Bob said:

I get this argument, and I agree that he's a natural forward. I think the role that best suits him is the role he played in the last two weeks as a defensive tall on intercept markers where he can use his smarts to find space on a non-defensive opponent. I'm just not convinced that his best role is the best role for his team.

Yeah, I think Fritsch's deficiencies present a problem for us. I agree with @Hannibal Inc. and you here, Bob. He's certainly a natural forward target, the concern I have is his defensive game, given the style we're trying to play. I don't think we can carry 2, let alone 3 'talls' that don't tackle and are ordinary at bringing ground level pressure.

I wonder what Yze thinks of our forward set up. Hawthorn managed to play Franklin, Roughead and Gunston in the one forwardline, but had Rioli, Puopolo and Breust at their feet. Those three smalls not only brought x factor, goal smarts and were natural goal kickers, they brought brilliant ground level pressure.

Brown, Weideman and Fritsch are similar types to those Hawthorn 3 or could be in tandem, albeit not as talented.

We then have Pickett and somehow have to fit Jackson in (I agree he'll play, but where best to play him?) and are still lacking the goal smarts and goal kickers like Puopolo and Breust. Petracca rolling through there probably takes one of them, but we need at least 1 or 2 others.

Jack Higgins would be a great target for us and anyone else of similar ilk. We are crying out for zippy forwards that can apply pressure and hit the scoreboard to balance out these three talls. Would love Brent Daniels too. I wonder if there's a way we can get him via Preuss.

Edited October 16, 2020 by A F

[DubDee 20,548]

The thing is, we desperately need a big fwd. if Brown doesn’t happen, what’s plan b?

Miochek doesn’t solve this as he is not a number 1 fwd. 

so we need to go hard for brown unless something else comes up

[whatwhat say what 18,897]

48 minutes ago, picket fence said:

We would need Jaheesus H himself with our flawed and suspect game style to kick goals and not even then would I be confident!

brown can play at chf, then

[Deemania since 56 6,132]

56 minutes ago, picket fence said:

We would need Jaheesus H himself with our flawed and suspect game style to kick goals and not even then would I be confident!

Yep, reality bites.

[Cards13 9,117]

The Age has just reported Shaw has taken an extended break from work and may not coach again.

[Redleg 37,556]

1 hour ago, 58er said:

Axis and Redleg What a whole lot of lies lies  and stats!!!

The only reason you can come up with your "Fritsch to Defence " argument is to furnish a dodgy convoluted mass of other Clubs vs our goal scoring from smalls mids and Talls.

The real situation is that each Club has  mixture of all 3 and depending upon their  abilities and numbers the goals are scored accordingly.

It doesn't make one system better than the other OR make Melb worse because  you identify that Fritsch is our problem because he is neither tall nor small!!!IE MEDIUM

The real fact is that Bayley is hands down OUR best forward by goals scored ( 22 from 16 games ) especially as his season total would  have been about 22.24/28 I reckon.

And he has weaknesses in accuracy strength Marking and tackling which if developed properly will make him a 40/45 goal scorer each year.

Fsr more valuable than sky other firward at this stage and nearly as good as Tomac in 2018. We could afford to play Bayley in defence ( in lieu of Lever injured) then but NOW not so.

We need Brown Weid Jacko Petty  to all develop to 30/35 plus goal kickers If they are talls in our Forward line.

Bayley should be selected no matter who is named ie 4 talls inc Jacko or 3 smalls say Spargo Bedford snd Kossie.

Its the mediums that fail us ( other than Bayley ) is Melk Hannan ANB AVB so we don't abandon our best forward but work around him to get the best balance.

BTW Trac is a medium and plays 30/40% forward!!!

Occasionally Bayley May be at FF just to change things a bit ( one on one advantage especially) but that is a luxury only fir say 5% of the time not fir a long time as Goody has gone too often to our detriment.

So I can't imagine our team if we win a flag in the next 4/5 years having Bayley any where else other than firward kicking twice as many as he is now amongst some better figures from both our talls and smalls.

No,No and No to Fritta in defence the old adage is ratbags you the backline and Bayley ain't no ratbag he is an A grader just waiting to bloom up forward.

 

 

So now I am called a liar, just for being interested in another poster’s use of stats, to back his opinion that Fritsch should be play in the back half, which I don’t even agree with.  
Wow some posters on here are so quick to attack others even for the completely wrong reason. 
Read my post again, if you ever even read it in the first place. 
PS, I actually never mentioned Fritsch at all in my post or moving him to Defence.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Redleg

[whatwhat say what 18,897]

9 minutes ago, Cards13 said:

The Age has just reported Shaw has taken an extended break from work and may not coach again.

hopefully he gets the help he needs