POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 9

[Sir Why You Little 37,034]

21 minutes ago, frankie_d said:

Goodwin "We're a footy club with a fairly poor past".

Sad

True

This is why we need angry men. Poise just doesn't cut it.

Wow. Don't tell me Goodwin has been defeated already?

that doesn't sound great at all...

[Wiseblood 24,637]

1 minute ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Wow. Don't tell me Goodwin has been defeated already?

that doesn't sound great at all...

Yeah, Goodwin has thrown the towel in after 9 games.  There you go, drawing that long bow again Robin.

[poita 3,902]

Good win last week and all, but that performance today was pitiful. We have lazy players, stupid players and players who have shocking skills. Plenty of our group fit into more than one of those categories.

Four weeks in a row we have given our opposition a giant head start, but nine weeks in a row we have gone missing for one or more quarters. This week it was two and a half quarters that we just didn't compete well enough.

We still have all our players flying in contests and nobody down too often. But today's special party trick was leaving your man to run towards the ball carrier, but ultimately getting caught between the two and creating an overlap runner for North. Surely the dangerous player is the one closest to goal. Oh, if you are playing on Ben Brown, you have to stop him jumping at the ball.

The time has come to clear out the bottom part of this group, those who consistently fail to perform. Weideman doesn't work nearly hard enough and is never in a dangerous position - he needs to spend the rest of the year at Casey developing physically and learning his trade. Kent is the biggest show pony on the list, is a massive front runner, and should be traded (if anyone wants him). Bugg's skills are Z-grade - he gets the ball because the opposition don't respect or fear him. Wagner makes the same poor decisions over and over again.

Lewis is a massive concern - his defensive work rate is appalling, and he is getting exposed too easily. Vince is more worried about playing tough guy than getting the footy. Jones had a horror game - I can't imagine he went above 50% efficiency today. Did Garlett and Watts play? Again our leaders and experienced players went missing when the heat was on.

Credit to Hannan who was a one-man band up forward, Pedersen who competed well all day, and Hibberd who found plenty of the ball down pack. The rest were on average poor, and I wouldn't say Goodwin had a great day either.

 

 

[Chris 2,892]

1 hour ago, Earl Hood said:

Weren't we stitched up by the umps in Hobart last year? Lost by 6 points after the umps gifted Goldy 2 or 3 of his 5 goal haul as I remember it. Big Max got pinged in the ruck duels from throw ins no matter if he was in front or behind. I remember Goldy getting a free in front of goal where Maxy was in front in the boundary throwing but somehow held Goldy unfairly. Shafted last year and somewhat the same today I thought. 

Has been the same for years against the roos. It is why I try not to watch the games against them. 

[dazzledavey36 54,892]

12 minutes ago, ShaneJ said:

I was at the New Members Function before the game. Brendan McCartney was there and wouldn't stop talking about the Adelaide win. He brought up how Oliver is 15 percent the player he will be, Trac is 10 percent, Viney a third... And the win against Adelaide is an indicator of that etc. Even when Trengove and Stretch came out, their first bunch of questions was about the Adelaide win. I get it was a great win, but 4 points is 4 points...

 

That makes me seriously angry..

Edited May 21, 2017 by dazzledavey36

[Adam The God 30,239]

2 hours ago, rjay said:

This is easy to say 'AF', but what could he have done differently and in what way was he out coached?

I thought our celebrated mids were average today, they've done a good job of roving to opposition ruckmen but North have a pretty tough inside crew as well and they got the armchair ride from Goldy.

What could Goody do here? he rotated a lot through the middle and had a number against Goody but 193cm is not going to beat up on a 200cm AA ruck.

We had passengers on the forward line, he moved Hunt in there and shifted others around.

The moves didn't come off this week, almost did and if they did he would be a genius again.

No, he wasn't thoroughly out coached, we were out played and still have a ways to go until we have the list that will win finals.

Having our 2 most important players, at least structurally, out doesn't help.

I would have moved McDonald into the ruck earlish in the third. Pedersen was good in the second term because he started jumping into Goldstein and we started to dominate the clearances as Goldstein wasn't allowed to do what he wanted. As soon as the second half started, you could see Pedersen wasn't jumping into Goldstein in the same way and Goldstein was dealing with him easily. That's when you pull the trigger on McDonald. You brief him at half time and say we're gonna keep going with Pedo as he's giving us a real contest at the moment, but if things go against us, we'll throw you in the ruck and try and keep them guessing and catch them off guard.

I also wouldn't have played Hunt. I would have gone Melksham or even Harmes. Probably Harmes actually. But let's put that issue to the side for a moment...

I would have moved Frost onto Brown when he started to dominate, but we stuck with Oscar. Okay, Waite may have been too clever for Oscar, but give him a chance to prove himself and switch things back if it doesn't work. Oscar on Brown wasn't working though. I would have kept Hibberd on Mason Wood and made sure Frost could run off Brown. Make Brown accountable. That then plays with North's forward structure.

I would have thrown Kent into the middle to see if it would get him going. He was pathetic. That move has worked for Watts in the past. They are in effect forced to lift their intensity. I would have played Pedersen full forward for much of the remainder of the third term and had him leading out of the square, with Watts leading away as decoy and other forwards creating space for Pedo (who is a good mark on a lead as a rule).

With Pedersen forward, you can then start to experiment a little bit with Watts and maybe play him on a wing and get his ball use going inside 50 or maybe even in the middle.

We didn't try any of these things. We didn't play with our spine enough and when we did it was too late. 

Edited May 21, 2017 by A F

[Adam The God 30,239]

1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

Really well said, rjay.  Goodwin is doing all he can - he even shifted McDonald into the ruck to start the last term and was happy to swing some changes when he felt it was required.

Goodwin, as you said, wasn't outcoached.  We were outplayed and there is a big difference.

We were certainly outplayed, but we didn't make moves quick enough today or proactively enough.

I did say that the responsibility doesn't rest solely at Goody's feet, but I think the coaches box was somewhat culpable today.

[frankie_d 1,471]

2 minutes ago, A F said:

I also wouldn't have played Hunt. I would have gone Melksham or even Harmes. Probably Harmes actually. 

Nor would have I.

[Webber 10,465]

The Bugg hate on here is ridiculous, but he seems to be this week's whipping boy. His kicking for goal was bad, his role-playing was good. Weideman is clearly lacking confidence, as he consistently runs under the ball in marking contests (last quarter grab excepted). Who to play instead though? Convinced he will be good however. Kent is NOT playing his role, he will have another, this time career defining, make or break dose of Casey I suspect. Watts seems tired. Intensity was lacking as a whole, as it has been at the start of every game this year after a good win, and in an unpredictable year, this is unarguably our most predictable trait. We are too short when a taller opposition play well to their strengths (hurry back Max and Jesse), Cunnington and Higgins are very smart, experienced footballers, and the umpiring (Nicholls in particular) was woeful. Too many underperformers today, and with the injury disadvantages we have, it's surprising once more how much we were in the game. Finals talk seems crazy, but if we beat GC next week, and Gawn and Hogan come back after the bye, it's all on again! Crazy.

[titan_uranus 25,016]

2 hours ago, ding said:

So with the same average age, Norf are a better side than we are.

Awesome.We are clearly going places.......... 

Their side today was more than a year older than us on average with an average of 18 games more experience per player.

I don't think that played much of a factor at all, but they are still carrying quite a lot of older players in their best 22.

1 hour ago, rjay said:

So following this line of thinking...we have a great list, it's just between the ears that we have a problem.

I don't think so.

Disagree - the list is not the problem IMO, it's all in the preparation, work-rate, intensity and mindset.

We have shown what our best football is like and it is more than good enough to be a finals side, even a top 4 side.

But we don't produce it consistently within a game, let alone from week to week. We're yet to put a single four quarter performance together and in all 9 games we've turned off for crucial periods of the game (today it was the first 10 minutes of the first and the third quarters).

That inability to put four quarters together is what is losing us games, not a list problem.

Also, if we had only one of Hogan or Gawn available we wouldn't be needing to play Weideman at the moment, who is clearly not good enough right now and ought to be developing at Casey. It's a double-whammy when key position players go down, not only do we miss Gawn/Hogan, but we're playing inadequate replacements in their place.

[Demonsone 2,037]

Goodwin is not going to start bagging his players & will deal with them internally...signs of a good coach

Players yet to mature to turn up ready to play ...wether its leadership is hard to say

[John Crow Batty 8,863]

Remarkably despite out shyte performances against shyte sides we are still the running for finals. It's gonna take a radical change of mindset in the second half of the season though to pull it off.

Edited May 21, 2017 by america de cali

[The heart beats true 18,123]

33 minutes ago, Skuit said:

Never mind injuries etc., the 195cm+ KPFs on our list consist entirely of Hogan, Watts, Weideman. I understand we're drafting to the game-style we have in mind, but surely the club should have been able to foresee the potential issue here. 

You're technically right on the 195+ KPF, but it's a pretty selective bracket. By 2 cm's your missing Pederson, Tim Smith and Hulett from this years list. Waite or Cam McCarthy isn't in that category either.

Frustration with the development of JKH is one thing, but I think we've actually done a really solid job since 2013 with our recruitment. I'll trust Roos' selections. He wasn't alone in not getting Brown.

[robbiefrom13 887]

As a matter of interest, is anyone able to say whether we have ever won a game umpired by Nichols?  Free kick count?  Who we beat?

[bringbackthebiff 654]

Things are never as good or as bad as they seem. We gave it a crack and just didn't quite get there. Missing probably our 2 most important players (at least structurally). Also I hate blaming umpires but they were shocking. Get our players back and get on a winning streak and we can make the finals. 

[Chris 2,892]

Most of players had a good crack at it today but looked a bit off. 

Tyson took another small step forward in regaining some good form. Each week he does a few more good things. 

Kent was soft. I like him and want him in the side as he gives us a bit but when he has to put his body on the line he doesn't, it drives me mad. I would bring in Harmes for Kent. Kent is a better user of the ball but Harmes goes in hard when he has to and Kent simply doesn't. 

We were spanked in the middle today but not in the clearances around the ground. We just couldn't match them one on one in the middle due in part to our poor structure, I think we were too focused on the man, and Goldy gave them brilliant service in the middle.

Omac I though was OK. He needs to get bigger but unlike other weeks I though he threw himself at it but was just too small. 

Hannan will be handy, certainly showed a bit today. 

Jones had an average day but wasn't on his own in that. 

The umps, especially Nicholls, can take a long walk off a short pier!

 

 

[Coq au vin 755]

28 minutes ago, DeeZee said:

Goodwins response was that we are still s developing team and North were simply the better team on the day.

He was right

[picket fence 17,151]

1 hour ago, rjay said:

This is easy to say 'AF', but what could he have done differently and in what way was he out coached?

I thought our celebrated mids were average today, they've done a good job of roving to opposition ruckmen but North have a pretty tough inside crew as well and they got the armchair ride from Goldy.

What could Goody do here? he rotated a lot through the middle and had a number against Goody but 193cm is not going to beat up on a 200cm AA ruck.

We had passengers on the forward line, he moved Hunt in there and shifted others around.

The moves didn't come off this week, almost did and if they did he would be a genius again.

No, he wasn't thoroughly out coached, we were out played and still have a ways to go until we have the list that will win finals.

Having our 2 most important players, at least structurally, out doesn't help.

Goodwin outcoached today .... Badly!

[bing181 9,221]

1 hour ago, DeeZee said:

It may have been better to have an extra tall or two , instead of so many small forwards for example, such as Johnstone, Kennedy and JKH for example.

Yes, but we have the two Smiths, Keilty, then Vandenberg plays tallish ... not to mention Gawn, Spencer and Hogan.

ALL of them are out injured.

[SFebes 4,884]

Ladder, Rds 3-9

GWS
FR
AD
STK
GE
WCE
PA*
SYD

NM
WB
COL
RIC
GCS*
ES
CAR
HAW
MEL
BL

One win separating Cats & Hawks.
Dees 17th a surprise.

[Brownie 5,980]

3 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Mentally weak. Fuming!

A game we simply should have won but no, typical Melbourne [censored].

And Weideman is utter useless. Send him back to Casey and leave him there till next year when he puts on weight and actually grows a pair.

That was one of the weakest games from Jack Watts since 2012. Your a 145 game veteran, play like one!

we played without Watts last week as well. he has to be dropped due to lack of effort but who do you bring in? with Weeds, Kent and Oscar out there, its left up to the mids to carry us over the line. Too many passengers.

another wasted season. 

[Phadraig 760]

The amount of time Omac leaves his opponent to go 3rd man up and completely misses the ball is staggering

[Deemented Are Go! 3,677]

I miss Vanders 

[Maldonboy38 6,402]

Our worst 4 players in each game we lose are often the reason we lose. Watts, Kent, Weid and Garlett were our worst today, and the story once again is we couldn't convert our hard work. We are being tortured by a lack of outside class, especially trting to find a target inside 50. Bugg's misses, Jones' horrendous kciking, the embarrassing clangers from our 3 KPD players, and our ingrained habit of not lowering our eyes for close forward targets.

I thought we had a fair crack at the game, were annihilated by their tall forwards and backs, but our worst 4 cost us 30+ points. Watts is beginning to concern me. He has some credits, but he and Kent lacked any phhsical presence at all today. Both very low intensity, low pressure, and ineffective. Garlett has had a great year so will allow him one shocker, but he can go missing for runs of matches so I hope that is not starting now. 

It feels very much like 2011 and 2016 all over again. Fairly hollow admission that. 

 

[FireInTheBennelly 4,072]

I think it speaks volumes on our progress that despite playing poorly for much of the game, the umps weren't willing to risk evening up the free kick count.