Clarence Oliver

[What 18,810]

I would be surprised if there was one AFL coach that would take Parish ahead of Oliver if they could choose one now.

[Chris 2,892]

On 3/12/2017 at 1:55 PM, dazzledavey36 said:

How will you know exactly that Clarry will be able to break a tag? He's never been tagged at AFL level to experience if he could or not. Opposition clubs will start to take notice of his dominance around stoppages and then we'll find out where he can break tags.

Think your going a bit too early there AF.

He ended up tagged against WC in the second half, not AFL proper but as close as he has been. He was no where near as effective with the tag, but it probably freed Viney and Co a bit, although I thought Viney and a few other mids were pretty disappointing against WC.

[BrisbaneDemon 1,492]

5 minutes ago, Chris said:

He ended up tagged against WC in the second half, not AFL proper but as close as he has been. He was no where near as effective with the tag, but it probably freed Viney and Co a bit, although I thought Viney and a few other mids were pretty disappointing against WC.

Spot on mate, thats always the problem with good midfields, you tag someone and it allows someone else to get off the leash.  This needs to be drummed into the boys round 1 and every round next year, when they lay off you, see ball, get ball, hit target.

[Chris 2,892]

45 minutes ago, BrisbaneDemon said:

Spot on mate, thats always the problem with good midfields, you tag someone and it allows someone else to get off the leash.  This needs to be drummed into the boys round 1 and every round next year, when they lay off you, see ball, get ball, hit target.

Can't wait to see opposition teams thinking about having 2 players in tagging roles against us, as long as they aren't as good as Bernie was a couple of years ago!

[ArtificialWisdom 3,844]

4 minutes ago, Chris said:

Can't wait to see opposition teams thinking about having 2 players in tagging roles against us, as long as they aren't as good as Bernie was a couple of years ago!

2? please, we could have 4. 
Oliver, Viney, Salem and Tyson could all one day demand the tag. Even if the tagger doesnt really exist anymore. 

[FarNorthernD 5,839]

8 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

I agree. I think Parish had a terrific first season and will be in the elite category in due course.

My point is that Parish was seemingly the safe selection with pick 4, but Taylor backed himself and went with Oliver despite him being the riskier choice.

For this reason, I always keep an eye on how Parish performs in games. Not that that's especially productive though - I just can't help it.

 

Yes I do the same mainly as I was hoping for Parish to be a complete bust just because he was drafted by Essendon. Unfortunately he has been very, very good particularly for a small skinny young mid.  

[Demon trucker 1,729]

3 hours ago, fndee said:

Yes I do the same mainly as I was hoping for Parish to be a complete bust just because he was drafted by Essendon. Unfortunately he has been very, very good particularly for a small skinny young mid.  

He has been good  but I think he has reached his full potential, unless he puts on same size, after 2 season cale Morton had 2 great seasons, he reached his full potential, he never put mussels and did not get any better, Darcy will have the same fate

[Wadda We Sing 10,685]

4 hours ago, Chris said:

Can't wait to see opposition teams thinking about having 2 players in tagging roles against us, as long as they aren't as good as Bernie was a couple of years ago!

.......speaking of which, whats happened with Bernie as a tagger?......he was really good.

[Skuit 9,109]

3 hours ago, Wadda We Sing said:

.......speaking of which, whats happened with Bernie as a tagger?......he was really good.

And we shouldn't forget the stopping ability of Viney against the league's top mids in 2015. 

[monoccular 16,010]

8 hours ago, don't make me angry said:

He [Parish] has been good  but I think he has reached his full potential, unless he puts on same size, after 2 season cale Morton had 2 great seasons, he reached his full potential, he never put mussels and did not get any better, Darcy will have the same fate

They need to get a pharmacist  to the club to ply his magic. ??.  Or do they have one?

Edited March 14, 2017 by monoccular

[rjay 23,851]

 

14 hours ago, don't make me angry said:

He has been good  but I think he has reached his full potential, unless he puts on same size, after 2 season cale Morton had 2 great seasons, he reached his full potential, he never put mussels and did not get any better, Darcy will have the same fate

You're way off the mark with the Parish/Morton comparison.

I'm a huge Oliver fan but the rose coloureds don't extend to denigrating Parish who is a great young talent and on his way to being an A grader.

Pity he's with EFC...

[Gator 16,891]

4 hours ago, rjay said:

 

You're way off the mark with the Parish/Morton comparison.

I'm a huge Oliver fan but the rose coloureds don't extend to denigrating Parish who is a great young talent and on his way to being an A grader.

Pity he's with EFC...

Yes, Parish has a long career ahead of him. 

He's an unbelievably busy and smart player, who will really hurt teams once he gets a tank. 

He reminds me of a young Cousins and a young Crawford.

[Lord Travis 10,141]

Oliver is my favorite player and could be a star of the competition if he can build enough of a tank. He's so damaging around the stoppages with his quick decision making and sure hands, but it's good we are starting to see him create space for himself and use his brilliant kicking skills. Gun.

Parish is very good also, and was the better of the two players last year. Oliver will be better long term if he gets fit enough but that's no slight on Parish. He looks a gun also and only a fool suggests otherwise. He did a few Cousins-like things last year grabbing balls out of packs and using agility and gut run to break away from opponents.

[jnrmac 18,914]

If you did the schoolyard test and lined them up against a wall to select a team you would take Oliver over Parish every day. They'll both be good players but Oliver does things that most players can't do.

[Wells 11 4,650]

3 hours ago, ProDee said:

Yes, Parish has a long career ahead of him. 

He's an unbelievably busy and smart player, who will really hurt teams once he gets a tank. 

He reminds me of a young Cousins and a young Crawford.

...and the more open game that is being pushed by the AFL will suit him. He wil be a star imo.  But so will Clarry . Im expecting both to be A grade. I highly doubt anyone from EFC or MFC will regret who they recruited. Would have been satisfying to have Toumpas V Wines situation run in our favour for once....but it wont be the case. 

[Demon trucker 1,729]

18 hours ago, rjay said:

 

You're way off the mark with the Parish/Morton comparison.

I'm a huge Oliver fan but the rose coloureds don't extend to denigrating Parish who is a great young talent and on his way to being an A grader.

Pity he's with EFC...

No rose coloured  glasses with Oliver he is a gun, and he is quick as well, would pick a quick bodie player over a skinny one every time

[ArtificialWisdom 3,844]

6 hours ago, don't make me angry said:

No rose coloured  glasses with Oliver he is a gun, and he is quick as well, would pick a quick bodie player over a skinny one every time

No rose for Oliver at all but there might be some here who look at parish through some pretty crappy coloured glasses. Theres every chance he will end up being a better player than Oliver. However I believe that Oliver will be so good that even if Parish is "better" we will be happy given those around him. I'd rather have 3 top 10 players than the number 1 player in the comp*

*yes i know parish may never be the number 1 player in the comp but you get my point

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

All I think and care about with this kind of comparison (Oliver/Parish), is who would be more likely to be the better player under the heat of a final.

And for me, Oliver wins without question.

Generally finals and especially grand finals are scrappy contested affairs and Parish is exactly the type of player who'd be caught out in that type of environment. He is 180 cm and will never be in the build of Nathan Jones. He'd purely be relying on the heavy lifters to get the ball out to him and whilst he may have that rare ability to kick a classy goal when it's most needed.

Oliver would be right in the coalface from the start making it happen.

 

 

Edited March 16, 2017 by stevethemanjordan

[Binmans PA 25,892]

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 2:07 PM, ArtificialWisdom said:

2? please, we could have 4. 
Oliver, Viney, Salem and Tyson could all one day demand the tag. Even if the tagger doesnt really exist anymore. 

Hopefully one day Tyson and Viney will demand a tag, but I don't see any of those boys, with the exception of Clarry, demanding a tag at this stage. But if Tyson and Viney are free to go without a tag, we will have a very dangerous midfield. Especially, if we learn to block and work for each other. 

No side is going to tag two mids, but there were certainly times last year where Viney was either tagged or received heavy attention at stoppages. Oliver's rise makes us all the more unpredictable, which is terrific. 

This all said, I'd be chasing hard for one more A grade mid at the end of this year. Reckon we're still one short.

Brayshaw, Petracca, Salem and for the next few years Lewis, Jones and Vince can all push through there, but I think we need one more to be a flag contender in a year or two.

Edited March 16, 2017 by A F

[Demon trucker 1,729]

32 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

All I think and care about with this kind of comparison (Oliver/Parish), is who would be more likely to be the better player under the heat of a final.

And for me, Oliver wins without question.

Generally finals and especially grand finals are scrappy contested affairs and Parish is exactly the type of player who'd be caught out in that type of environment. He is 180 cm and will never be in the build of Nathan Jones. He'd purely be relying on the heavy lifters to get the ball out to him and whilst he may have that rare ability to kick a classy goal when it's most needed, those opportunities are rare.

Oliver would be right in the coalface from the start making it happen.

 

 

I think parish looked good because he was number 1 midfielder in a depleted team., where results did not matter.

[ArtificialWisdom 3,844]

5 minutes ago, A F said:

Hopefully one day Tyson and Viney will demand a tag, but I don't see any of those boys, with the exception of Clarry, that will demand a tag. But of Tyson and Viney are free to go without a tag, we will have a very dangerous midfield. Especially, if we learn to block and work for each other. 

No side is going to tag two mids, but there were certainly times last year where Viney was either tagged or received heavy attention at stoppages. Oliver's rise makes us all the more unpredictable, which is terrific. 

This all said, I'd be chasing hard for one more A grade mid at the end of this year. Reckon we're still one short.

Brayshaw, Petracca, Salem and for the next few years Lewis, Jones and Vince can all push through there, but I think we need one more to be a flag contender in a year or two.

haha yeah i know nobody really tags anymore but i was just trying to point out that for everyone who gets the hypothetical tag we have a couple that can step up. 

As for the A graders I think we need about 3 more. We have a whole heap of B grade young mids who are still a long way off being A grade. Maybe Viney is close to being there now. The rest are probably a couple of years off being A grader midfielders (yes, even Oliver despite all the potential he is showing) and none of them are A+ superstars . Hopefully we can get 2 or 3 to grow near the top with Viney but I'm yet to be convinced any will actually be A+.

[nutbean 8,837]

33 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

All I think and care about with this kind of comparison (Oliver/Parish), is who would be more likely to be the better player under the heat of a final.

And for me, Oliver wins without question.

Generally finals and especially grand finals are scrappy contested affairs and Parish is exactly the type of player who'd be caught out in that type of environment. He is 180 cm and will never be in the build of Nathan Jones. He'd purely be relying on the heavy lifters to get the ball out to him and whilst he may have that rare ability to kick a classy goal when it's most needed, those opportunities are rare.

Oliver would be right in the coalface from the start making it happen.

 

 

Again all speculation as to who would be more valuable in final...

Who won the Norm Smith medal last year ? (which I didn't agree with) - I know that Johannisen plays HBF - but both are more outside players ( I think Parish actually gets more of his own hardball than Johannisen) - same height and almost the same weight. Both to a large extent both need the heavy lifters to get the ball out to them, or at least need space to be at their most destructive. 

All I know is we got an absolute pearler in Oliver and I believe that Essendon got a beauty as well. Both are valuable but in entirely different ways.

[FarNorthernD 5,839]

Just seen the Swans have locked Callum Mills up till the end of 2023, seven seasons away. They have a history of long contracts with Buddy on a ten year on and Heeney I think till 2021(?). 

Personally I think anything over a four year contract is too much of a gamble but then I wouldn't mind if the MFC put a long term in front of Clayton. It is difficult not to see him playing 200+ games

[rjay 23,851]

51 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Generally finals and especially grand finals are scrappy contested affairs and Parish is exactly the type of player who'd be caught out in that type of environment. He is 180 cm and will never be in the build of Nathan Jones. He'd purely be relying on the heavy lifters to get the ball out to him and whilst he may have that rare ability to kick a classy goal when it's most needed, those opportunities are rare.

 

Parish gets his own ball, he's very good on the inside and outside plus he uses it well.

I don't know where you get this idea of him needing others to get it for him...the kid is a very good footballer.

Don't get me wrong. I think we pulled the right reign in Oliver, the kid is a gun.

...but because Oliver is a gun it doesn't make Parish an also ran.

We're not talking Toumpas/Wines here.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

4 hours ago, nutbean said:

Again all speculation as to who would be more valuable in final...

Who won the Norm Smith medal last year ? (which I didn't agree with) - I know that Johannisen plays HBF - but both are more outside players ( I think Parish actually gets more of his own hardball than Johannisen) - same height and almost the same weight. Both to a large extent both need the heavy lifters to get the ball out to them, or at least need space to be at their most destructive. 

All I know is we got an absolute pearler in Oliver and I believe that Essendon got a beauty as well. Both are valuable but in entirely different ways.

History and therefore evidence suggests that the vast majority of finals and especially Grand Finals are won from hard/strong inside contested ball kings. Plays and situations where heavy packs of players are trying to win first possession. You've named an outlier in Johannisen winning the Norm-Smith one year.  Usually it's influential combative contested ball players or mercurial forwards who take out that award. Hardly speculation.

It's not that I don't rate Parish, I'm simply saying I'd rather head into a Grand Final with Clayton Oliver starting in the guts over Parish if I had a choice.

 

4 hours ago, rjay said:

Parish gets his own ball, he's very good on the inside and outside plus he uses it well.

I don't know where you get this idea of him needing others to get it for him...the kid is a very good footballer.

Don't get me wrong. I think we pulled the right reign in Oliver, the kid is a gun.

...but because Oliver is a gun it doesn't make Parish an also ran.

We're not talking Toumpas/Wines here.

 

No, we're not. 

And I agree with Parish being a stronger inside player than Toumpas. Only because of his tenacity.

But again I'll stress that the heat of a final or grand final is at an entirely different level. I'll also add that a contested possession is another 'stat' that can be misleading. Just like a clanger. I won't post it here, but you should have a look at what counts as a contested possession these days.

My argument is that Oliver is bigger, stronger, more aggressive, is as clean/or cleaner with his hands and has a far better chance of marking the ball in a contested situation than the smaller Parish. 

All of these things point to him being the more influential player in a final, given the way finals are usually played.

 

Edited March 16, 2017 by stevethemanjordan