HOW PAGAN SLIPPED THROUGH DEES' FINGERS

[Guest]

I think another perspective needs to be added here.

Most would agree Balmey was and is a good bloke. I reckon however that the tail wagged the dog too much during his era. Hollywood Boulevarde was given it's head and that would come back to haunt the club in a way that was unexpected 15 years later. Some blokes needed a kick up the arze during that era rather than a pat on the back. I remember the Ox saying as much in a 3AW interview at the time. The Gaz Man also said in his book that he was let down by a lot of blokes who took advantage of his methods so they could slack off. Plus I didn't like the idea of playing players who were not match fit or ready to come back from injury. Jimmy Stynes and David Schwarz calling their own shots on when they would play come to mind.

That being said, Balmey definitely found a job that he was suited to after he left and has proven he is one of the best in the business in that role. He was probably ahead of his time as a coach as well. He was just coaching in the wrong era.

Would Pagan have done any better? Hard to say as it's all speculation now.
 

[ickey_11 145]

On 09/02/2017 at 9:48 PM, rjay said:

I hear Roos wasn't Mr Popularity with us and how do you think Barassi would stack up in the most liked list?

Good point; every coach has his favourites, and also read Stan Alves autobiography on how Barassi treated him when he forced him to retire (not that there was any issues there, just that Barassi was very ruthless about it).

[Sir Why You Little 34,432]

20 hours ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

I think another perspective needs to be added here.

Most would agree Balmey was and is a good bloke. I reckon however that the tail wagged the dog too much during his era. Hollywood Boulevarde was given it's head and that would come back to haunt the club in a way that was unexpected 15 years later. Some blokes needed a kick up the arze during that era rather than a pat on the back. I remember the Ox saying as much in a 3AW interview at the time. The Gaz Man also said in his book that he was let down by a lot of blokes who took advantage of his methods so they could slack off. Plus I didn't like the idea of playing players who were not match fit or ready to come back from injury. Jimmy Stynes and David Schwarz calling their own shots on when they would play come to mind.

That being said, Balmey definitely found a job that he was suited to after he left and has proven he is one of the best in the business in that role. He was probably ahead of his time as a coach as well. He was just coaching in the wrong era.

Would Pagan have done any better? Hard to say as it's all speculation now.
 

Pagan would have been bog ordinary without W Carey in his side

[Whispering_Jack 27,960]

So what is it about coaches that makes a team good? 

I think Clarkson is the epitome of the successful modern day coach and Luke Beverage is close behind. 

But you have to have the right cattle as well.

RDB was sensational at Carlton and then North but couldn't get results at Melbourne although it could be argued that he set the tone for better times under Northey.

Malthouse was a genius at Collingwood and said to be loved by the players there and yet it was said he was despised at Carlton where he was an abject failure.

You wouldn't want to be a coach for quids.

[rjay 23,888]

2 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Pagan would have been bog ordinary without W Carey in his side

He was smart enough to use Carey the right way and get the best from his player and team so he should be credited with that.

His success as a junior coach also points towards him being far from bog ordinary.

[Sir Why You Little 34,432]

17 minutes ago, rjay said:

He was smart enough to use Carey the right way and get the best from his player and team so he should be credited with that.

His success as a junior coach also points towards him being far from bog ordinary.

We shall disagree. I know people who were at Carlscum when he was there

it was a disaster from Day one

( a beautiful thing)

[thesleepinggiant 160]

Pagan was a good coach as previous posters mentioned. He called a spade a spade and was a father figure to a lot of players over his coaching career. His coaching under 19's stint was great, a great human being and a good man.

Unfortunately he was screwed hardcore at Carlton. "Member" when the Blues had the draft sactions imposed??? Yes they were to blame however quite simply that screwed the pooch for 10 yrs. Its now 2017 and they have finally acknowledged a proper rebuild.

History will judge Dennis unfairly after the 2000's which is sad if you research his creditionals pre- Carlton.

 

[Willmoy1947 3,769]

I don't care how smart any coach in the AFL is, noone would get rid of Lewis to us....

[John Crow Batty 8,252]

I remember the stark contrast between the Northey/ Balme sides. One tough hard working, the other flashy Swiss cheese. Pagan then might have been the right man for the job and OX may not have gotten his injury and we may have gotten a couple of flags. 

[monoccular 16,042]

On 09/02/2017 at 5:29 PM, McQueen said:

I would've gladly had him instead of Neeld.

Maybe Steve, even you could have outdone Neeld

On 09/02/2017 at 8:20 PM, Sir Why You Little said:

Have heard similar stories from Carlton Supporters who knew players at the same time. Elliot's last Stand, that failed dismally

CFC haven't done all that well with the importation of 'super coaches' have they?  Pagan.  Malthouse.

On 09/02/2017 at 8:56 PM, Wiseblood said:

Hopefully ours is simply 'kick it to JH.'  If that win's us a flag then I'll be happy with that.  

 

On 09/02/2017 at 10:16 PM, Biffen said:

We have more options.

But Jesse is not a bad one.

 

I was thinking a bit about the Pagan's paddock option before I came across this post.

Not sure if Jesse is athletic enough, at this stage, to carry it off, but I did wonder about isolating Jack Watts deep forward.  Good mark, agile, quick, and would the opposition go for a strong gorilla who Jack would outrun, or a quick who Jack would outsmart and outmark?   A bit like the GF (?1999) where Jarman was left one on one against Jamie Shanahan and stole the game.

Edited February 13, 2017 by monoccular