POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 15

[ArtificialWisdom 3,848]

7 hours ago, Je Roos Salem said:

Exactly. Everyone seems to think we need 3 talls but given we don't have a Jenkins-type at hand we should try something else. Go smaller for a few games or maybe be crazy enough to play Spencer with Gawn again. Either way putrid performances like that from Dawes shouldn't be accepted.

We need 3 talls because Watts plays in the ruck. Whenever watts goes in the middle that leaves hogan alone and he cant do it alone. Dawes only use is that Adelaide had to stand someone next to him.

I know people thing its batshit crazy to play Spencer and Gawn together but I look at our forwardline and think to myself "Is putting a 2m Spencer in at FF really going to hurt us that much?" Cant be any worse than Dawes. Nobody has ever faulted Spencer's effort and he'll provide us a reliable contest when forward so why not? Get Hogan to CHF where he becomes a real threat rather than sitting him in the square. Free watts up to stay out of the ruck (despite him being servicable there recently). Watts and Hogan are gaining chemistry every week and I would look capatalise on that. 

[Nasher 33,047]

Watts post game:

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/video/2016-07-03/rd-15-jack-watts-post-match

Both his tone and his words indicate frustration and pain over the loss.  Who remembers "I move on pretty quickly after losses"? 

As sadistic as it is, it's refreshing to hear players express some self-frustration over not quite getting the job done.  Watts to me in this interview came across as a player who believes in himself and the team and believes they're good enough to win, and anything less is unsatisfactory, even if the effort was there.  It's such a stark contrast to the despair and deflation you would hear in their voices after matches in the past.  

[Maldonboy38 5,848]

Once again we challenged a top team, and got a similar result: a close loss. And the main reason? Class. Both teams fumbled and missed targets all day, but we seemed to do it when under little or no pressure, and killing whatever momentum we could find. Class shows in three areas - 1) disposal under pressure 2) decision making 3) finishing off in front of goal

We desperately need Brayshaw, Oliver, Wagner and one of Hulett or Weideman to develop well over this summer. These blokes have demonstrated a strong class element in their game, along with Hunt, Petracca, Jetta, and Hogan. 

Bugg, M Jones (who has been great this year) and Kennedy lack class and it shows against top teams. Add Kent and Harmes who have gone off the boil a bit. 

I am beginning to notice that opposition now often double-team N Jones, Hogan, and sometimes Viney, and am surprised they haven't started doing it to Watts. They obviously know that outside these players, our class is absent, or remains as potential in our younger players. 

[poita 3,573]

Full credit to the team for their excellent fight back in the second quarter, after a poor first term. That said, we were really poor for three quarters (15 goals to 7) and the margin flattered us.

The start of the third quarter was just abysmal, and our inability to score a goal in the first 20+ minutes of the last quarter, with a gale behind us, was damning. That was the third time in four games that we have just stopped completely at three quarter time.

Ultimately though, what can you expect when the coach / selectors keep picking blokes who don't perform on a regular basis. Vandenberg, Kent, Kennedy, Harmes - these guys just don't turn up ready to play each week. One decent game in four is not reason enough to keep playing them. M.Jones and Bugg are just depth players. Petracca needs a rest. Frost needs a brain.

As for Chris Dawes, he is just an utter liability. After 3.5 years of complete mediocrity, nobody expects him to be taking pack marks and kicking bags of goals, but is there any chance he might provide a decent contest occasionally? His modus operandi appears to be: (1) run to the wrong spot, (2) get in the way of a teammate, (3) fall over at the critical moment, (4) repeat. It is damning when his teammates would prefer a risky kick across ground, rather than a 50 metre kick down the line to Dawes. Any of Spencer, Pedersen, Weideman and Hulett would be far better value.

Clearly we have improved on last year, but there is every chance we will finish with around 8 wins this year, so maybe one more than last year. The progress is positively glacial, whilst other teams seem able to rejuvenate their list in a year. We are still probably 6-8 players off being able to seriously challenge. Hopefully 3-4 of those are running around at Casey, but that is still a bunch more we that need to find in the draft (good luck doing that without a first round pick). And that assumes we don't lose any players at year end, which is doubtful given previous years.

 

 

[Lucifers Hero 36,991]

Rightly or wrongly, we need to show "measurable" improvement this year and a key measure will be more wins eg 8 to 10. 

So I think the club will wait till we have a few more wins before players like Weideman or Hullet get a 'taste of AFL'.  We played Oscar, Hunt in the last few games of 2015 so would expect the same apply to this year's newbies (and maybe Grimes).

Edited July 4, 2016 by Lucifer's Hero

[The heart beats true 16,103]

17 minutes ago, poita said:

The progress is positively glacial, whilst other teams seem able to rejuvenate their list in a year.

 

This gets thrown around here a fair bit but I'd be interested in having a look at who is being referenced? Aside from the Bulldogs making a considerable jump the only other side to move strongly since 2014 is GWS - and I think we can all agree that the draft concessions offered them are extraordinary (and we should all be VERY grateful GCS stuffed up their recruiting). It's also a very different playing field now with Free Agency. In any other era Geelong and Hawthorn would be paying for their recent success, but now they top up and go again. To move up the ladder other teams have to move down too.

I often hear the phrase 'It took me a decade of hard work to become an overnight sensation' in reference to success. It's a slow build and for a very young list that's great. The last thing we need is a team that thinks it'll come easy to them.

And if you ask smart footy people about how Bevo ended up with such a strong team at the Bulldogs they'll tell you that Brendan McCartney did some great work with their developing players. He backed them in at the expense of some senior players and the senior players sooked (which cost him his job). I think McCartney's been proven right. Their rise has been built on their younger players.

[Gator 16,891]

32 minutes ago, poita said:

Full credit to the team for their excellent fight back in the second quarter, after a poor first term. That said, we were really poor for three quarters (15 goals to 7) and the margin flattered us.

We had 34 more disposals, 15 more contested possessions, 24 more uncontested possessions and were basically even in clearances.  

They were cleaner with ball delivery into the forward-line, but I don't think the margin flattered us.  In many respects, I reckon we should have won that game.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,412]

14 hours ago, Demi Dee said:

Im not blaming our loss on him, but, he has a real knack of giving us acouple of soft free's early, plenty of benign free's for us in no mans land and balances the ledger with free's against the flow of play and questionable freebies in extremely dangerous positions. He has mastered the craft of camouflaging his favouritism or is it his contempt for the red and blue. 

I didn't think there was much wrong with the umps yesterday. A couple of howlers each way but otherwise pretty consistent.

[Lucifers Hero 36,991]

Roos on our better players yesterday:

“I take joy because I’ve seen how much he (Watts) has got bashed in the three years I’ve been here,” Roos said of Melbourne’s much-maligned 2008 No.1 draft pick...I’m loving watching him play..."

"...Jeff Garlett (four goals) had returned from a stint in the reserves to play a “cracking game” yesterday..."

“He (Hunt) was just exceptional in the contest, exceptional getting across the ground, helping his teammates, creating scoring opportunities, kicked a goal himself,” Roos said.

That sort of public praise must do wonders for their confidence. 

Last week Watts credited Roos with 'saving his career'.  Jack is repaying the faith!

[drdrake 3,037]

There are Key moments in a game where we cry out for someone to grab it by the throat and win the game.  We still don't have that player, I think we have one in the making with Petracca but at the moment we don't.

N Jones free kick middle of the ground goes 50m sideways to a 2 on 2, that summed up our evening, when it mattered our senior players made some very basic and poor decisions, Vince was woeful, Dawes massive liability.

I remember a three quarter time checking stats on my phone, the telling one was Tackles inside 50m, Adelaide had 11 and we had 4, the match finished up 12 to 7, the ball gets out of our forward 50m to easy.  Garlett has really good with his forward pressure, it just seemed to me when to ball came out to easy.

[Demonised 1,201]

11 hours ago, Jaded said:

but for god's sake at least he can take a mark

Sorry, no. Dunn has never been a good mark, especially overhead.

[binman 37,945]

1 hour ago, Nasher said:

Watts post game:

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/video/2016-07-03/rd-15-jack-watts-post-match

Both his tone and his words indicate frustration and pain over the loss.  Who remembers "I move on pretty quickly after losses"? 

As sadistic as it is, it's refreshing to hear players express some self-frustration over not quite getting the job done.  Watts to me in this interview came across as a player who believes in himself and the team and believes they're good enough to win, and anything less is unsatisfactory, even if the effort was there.  It's such a stark contrast to the despair and deflation you would hear in their voices after matches in the past.  

I could not agree more Nasher. I had exactly the same thoughts when i watched it last night. He also nailed the reasons why we lost - mistakes, turnovers, silly errors. But was also quick to point out how that we were hard at the ball all day. Terrific and insightful comment that the top teams, the Geelongs and Hawthorns, don't let a team smash them out of the center 5 times in a row as we allowed to happen in the third (which is precisely when we lost the game) and that we would have to find a way to do the same. A more balanced and accurate analysis than some in this thread.

I also really liked his comments about his own game. Acknowledged he played well without going over the top and said he still made some errors. my take was that it was close to the best game i have seen him play. Played well from beginning to end. Marked well, ran hard, cracked in, hit the scoreboard, got 23 possessions, stayed switched on and in the contest (eg i'm pretty sure he touched the ball Jacobs shanked to Gartlett setting up a goal, though in the highlights the coomenatotoes didn't say so) used the ball beautifully (god, didn't it stand out when compared to some of the howlers - OMc, Dawes, TMac and Hogan's chief among them. How was that kick across his body to Hogan running towards goals that Hogan should have swallowed) and had numerous score involvements

Dare i say it but he sounded like a leader. Perhaps that's the next evolution of Jack.

[binman 37,945]

53 minutes ago, ProDee said:

We had 34 more disposals, 15 more contested possessions, 24 more uncontested possessions and were basically even in clearances.  

They were cleaner with ball delivery into the forward-line, but I don't think the margin flattered us.  In many respects, I reckon we should have won that game.

Agree PD. As Jack Watts said we should not allowed those four goals to start the third. Critical. I was actually really impressed we stayed in the contest after that and whilst not quire wresting back the momentum stopping it all flowing their way.

Also some critical errors and missed opportunities throughout the game cost us our chance. Kennedy missing from straight in front in the last was a heart breaker. 

Whilst it didn't cost the game i thought the free kick against Stretch in the the third for holding the ball on the half back flank was a shocker and led directly to a Crows goal. He had absolutely no prior opportunity. That said the goal came about after a poor kick put him under pressure and we failed to spoil a kick to the top of the square.

[Chris 2,892]

3 minutes ago, binman said:

Agree PD. As Jack Watts said we should not allowed those four goals to start the third. Critical. I was actually really impressed we stayed in the contest after that and whilst not quire wresting back the momentum stopping it all flowing their way.

Also some critical errors and missed opportunities throughout the game cost us our chance. Kennedy missing from straight in front in the last was a heart breaker. 

Whilst it didn't cost the game i thought the free kick against Stretch in the the third for holding the ball on the half back flank was a shocker and led directly to a Crows goal. He had absolutely no prior opportunity. That said the goal came about after a poor kick put him under pressure and we failed to spoil a kick to the top of the square.

I was really happy we got back into it as well and think the turning point came due to Chunck. I am not usually one to sing his praises too loudly on here, although I do think he is good and growing as a captain, but I saw him go in on the edge of the centre square, at a point where they had kicked all the quick goals, and you could see in his body language that he had had enough and wasn't going to let it continue. He went in against a couple of them, should have lost it a couple of times but just wouldn't give in and ended up coming out with the ball. 

It was probably the first time I have really seen him say enough is enough in such a strong way and pick the team up with his actions. Unfortunately the damage was done and we never fully recovered. 

[samcantstandya 918]

2 hours ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

We need 3 talls because Watts plays in the ruck. Whenever watts goes in the middle that leaves hogan alone and he cant do it alone. Dawes only use is that Adelaide had to stand someone next to him.

I know people thing its batshit crazy to play Spencer and Gawn together but I look at our forwardline and think to myself "Is putting a 2m Spencer in at FF really going to hurt us that much?" Cant be any worse than Dawes. Nobody has ever faulted Spencer's effort and he'll provide us a reliable contest when forward so why not? Get Hogan to CHF where he becomes a real threat rather than sitting him in the square. Free watts up to stay out of the ruck (despite him being servicable there recently). Watts and Hogan are gaining chemistry every week and I would look capatalise on that. 

Spencer is useless around the ground he is a very tall witch hat as is Dawes though not as tall

[samcantstandya 918]

1 hour ago, poita said:

Full credit to the team for their excellent fight back in the second quarter, after a poor first term. That said, we were really poor for three quarters (15 goals to 7) and the margin flattered us.

The start of the third quarter was just abysmal, and our inability to score a goal in the first 20+ minutes of the last quarter, with a gale behind us, was damning. That was the third time in four games that we have just stopped completely at three quarter time.

Ultimately though, what can you expect when the coach / selectors keep picking blokes who don't perform on a regular basis. Vandenberg, Kent, Kennedy, Harmes - these guys just don't turn up ready to play each week. One decent game in four is not reason enough to keep playing them. M.Jones and Bugg are just depth players. Petracca needs a rest. Frost needs a brain.

As for Chris Dawes, he is just an utter liability. After 3.5 years of complete mediocrity, nobody expects him to be taking pack marks and kicking bags of goals, but is there any chance he might provide a decent contest occasionally? His modus operandi appears to be: (1) run to the wrong spot, (2) get in the way of a teammate, (3) fall over at the critical moment, (4) repeat. It is damning when his teammates would prefer a risky kick across ground, rather than a 50 metre kick down the line to Dawes. Any of Spencer, Pedersen, Weideman and Hulett would be far better value.

Clearly we have improved on last year, but there is every chance we will finish with around 8 wins this year, so maybe one more than last year. The progress is positively glacial, whilst other teams seem able to rejuvenate their list in a year. We are still probably 6-8 players off being able to seriously challenge. Hopefully 3-4 of those are running around at Casey, but that is still a bunch more we that need to find in the draft (good luck doing that without a first round pick). And that assumes we don't lose any players at year end, which is doubtful given previous years.

 

 

I agree with u about Kent, Vanders, Harmes, Kennedy, MattJones & Bugg. They are all inconsistent. Kennedy & Harmes  most upside, but they must eliminate flaws. Harmes fumbles 2 much. Vanders needs 2 improve his skills, Bugg might b tough but lacks polish & Matt Jones runs in2 trouble 2 much & is a poor kick.

[Fat Tony 4,401]

2 hours ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

We need 3 talls because Watts plays in the ruck. Whenever watts goes in the middle that leaves hogan alone and he cant do it alone. Dawes only use is that Adelaide had to stand someone next to him.
 

IMO we would be better off playing another midfielder and relying on the small forwards. Occasionally you get out marked, but players like Petracca, Vandenberg and Brayshaw can provide a decent contest and are much better when the ball hits the deck and provide more pressure.

[ArtificialWisdom 3,848]

7 minutes ago, samcantstandya said:

Spencer is useless around the ground he is a very tall witch hat as is Dawes though not as tall

Spencer changes our structure though. I think we can all agree Hogan is better as CHF. But when Dawes is in the team, Mr 1 dimentional can only play at CHF which means we have to put hogan deeper where he just gets double teamed and is left with little hope. Play spencer as FF where his height is enough to panic defenders and if he dosent win a free he is big enough to take a mark or bring it to ground and hopefully the support will come. He is more threat than dawes is right now. No I dont think long term he can fit in the side, but right now he changes us up a bit to put our better players in their best positions. If dawes was playing well then sure run with hogan as FF but since dawes cant get it happening then play Hogan up the ground and put Spence in there to be the big bloke who makes a contest 
 

[ArtificialWisdom 3,848]

3 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

IMO we would be better off playing another midfielder and relying on the small forwards. Occasionally you get out marked, but players like Petracca, Vandenberg and Brayshaw can provide a decent contest and are much better when the ball hits the deck and provide more pressure.

Maybe it can work at times, Vanders is the best mark of those 3 but he cant find form, Petracca is a gun but his height makes it difficult against a tall defender and if they bring in Brayshaw i will not be happy he should get more time in the 2s. We have a decent mosquito fleet, no doubt, but they are also pretty inconsistant. Dawes is our most consistant player right now... pitty we cant get some inconsistancy and fit in good performances among the bad.

[old dee 22,847]

1 hour ago, Demonised said:

Sorry, no. Dunn has never been a good mark, especially overhead.

If my life depended on it and the choice was that two I would pick Dunn first, second, third and fourth.

 

[old dee 22,847]

2 hours ago, poita said:

Full credit to the team for their excellent fight back in the second quarter, after a poor first term. That said, we were really poor for three quarters (15 goals to 7) and the margin flattered us.

The start of the third quarter was just abysmal, and our inability to score a goal in the first 20+ minutes of the last quarter, with a gale behind us, was damning. That was the third time in four games that we have just stopped completely at three quarter time.

Ultimately though, what can you expect when the coach / selectors keep picking blokes who don't perform on a regular basis. Vandenberg, Kent, Kennedy, Harmes - these guys just don't turn up ready to play each week. One decent game in four is not reason enough to keep playing them. M.Jones and Bugg are just depth players. Petracca needs a rest. Frost needs a brain.

As for Chris Dawes, he is just an utter liability. After 3.5 years of complete mediocrity, nobody expects him to be taking pack marks and kicking bags of goals, but is there any chance he might provide a decent contest occasionally? His modus operandi appears to be: (1) run to the wrong spot, (2) get in the way of a teammate, (3) fall over at the critical moment, (4) repeat. It is damning when his teammates would prefer a risky kick across ground, rather than a 50 metre kick down the line to Dawes. Any of Spencer, Pedersen, Weideman and Hulett would be far better value.

Clearly we have improved on last year, but there is every chance we will finish with around 8 wins this year, so maybe one more than last year. The progress is positively glacial, whilst other teams seem able to rejuvenate their list in a year. We are still probably 6-8 players off being able to seriously challenge. Hopefully 3-4 of those are running around at Casey, but that is still a bunch more we that need to find in the draft (good luck doing that without a first round pick). And that assumes we don't lose any players at year end, which is doubtful given previous years.

 

 

I agree with most of that poita however we will win 10 games.

The seventh is next weekend in Darwin.

[Moonshadow 16,161]

22 minutes ago, old dee said:

I agree with most of that poita however we will win 10 games.

The seventh is next weekend in Darwin.

We are likely to finish with 8 wins. Win vs GCS and Carlton. Even those are by no means certainties.

[Dockett 32 1,213]

With Max getting his fair share in the ruck, more than fair share at times, IMO our midfield should be doing a lot better. Not ruthless enough ( like Hawthorn,Swans) in the engine room. We have to start smashing sides in this area , Max gives us an advantage  but I thought that both last week and this week the opposition were way harder  and cleaner than us in the midfield. Would kill for a Selwood , Kennedy, Fyfe  or Hodge. Maybe that's why Petracca  was moved there and I hope its persevered with.

[old dee 22,847]

2 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

We are likely to finish with 8 wins. Win vs GCS and Carlton. Even those are by no means certainties.

We will see Mr. Shadow but I am bullish about 10.

[old dee 22,847]

2 minutes ago, Dockett 32 said:

With Max getting his fair share in the ruck, more than fair share at times, IMO our midfield should be doing a lot better. Not ruthless enough ( like Hawthorn,Swans) in the engine room. We have to start smashing sides in this area , Max gives us an advantage  but I thought that both last week and this week the opposition were way harder  and cleaner than us in the midfield. Would kill for a Selwood , Kennedy, Fyfe  or Hodge. Maybe that's why Petracca  was moved there and I hope its persevered with.

IMO so far Petracca has shown he is a reasonable young player in his first season.

I actually think it is time he had a freshen up back at Casey, I did not think he was influence yesterday.