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H_T

Elite Status

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Interested to know posters opinions on elite status AND with respect to our club. What are the standards, the parameters, limitations, levels, barriers, thresholds - however you want to call it?

A/ Is it defined by or does it have something to do with: -

  • Media recognition
  • Best & Fairests
  • Elite categories onfield (Champion Data stats)
  • General Football Industry consensus
  • Star performances (longevity of star perfromances)
  • Top 10 players in AFL
  • MVP

 

B/ Is there some sort of recognition of elite status in relation to: -

  • Brownlow Medal - top 10 finishes/most votes (or how many votes they get)
  • Coleman Medal (or how many goals they kick)
  • Norm Smith Medal
  • All-Australian

Do successive years in the All-Australian team qualify you for elite status? 

Opinions please. Discuss. 

C/ Who are destined (on their way) and showing signs of reaching elite status with our club? Posters have previously had big wraps on a number of players - Jess Hogan, Angus Brayshaw, Christian Petracca, Jack Viney.

 

D/ Where do others put current players such as: -

  • Nathan Jones
  • Bernie Vince
  • Jack Viney
  • Max Gawn
  • Jack Watts
  • Jesse Hogan

 

I haven't looked at Champion Data or anything, or any other stats in relation to this thread, I just wonder what opinions others have in assessing some of these players to the half way mark of the year in 2016 currently and their assessment when it comes to elite status for them.

For mine, my definition of elite status: -

  • In the top 3% of all AFL footballers. 
  • The marquee player of your team.
  • Most likely the highest paid in your team.
  • Player who is significant in contribution to win you games.
  • Consistently performs at a high standard.

 

Let's discuss the elite in our competition and where our players need to get to (or what the club needs to get), to be considered an elite team.

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1 hour ago, H_T said:

Interested to know posters opinions on elite status AND with respect to our club. What are the standards, the parameters, limitations, levels, barriers, thresholds - however you want to call it?

A/ Is it defined by or does it have something to do with: -

  • Media recognition  Far too driven by the boys club and who is a good bloke to have a beer with
  • Best & Fairests Not sure on this as a BnF is easier to win in a bottom team
  • Elite categories onfield (Champion Data stats)
  • General Football Industry consensus Far too driven by the boys club
  • Star performances (longevity of star perfromances)
  • Top 10 players in AFL
  • MVP This is probably a good guide as it is voted by the other players. Still may have the good bloke bit attached though. 

 

B/ Is there some sort of recognition of elite status in relation to: -

  • Brownlow Medal - top 10 finishes/most votes (or how many votes they get)
  • Coleman Medal (or how many goals they kick)
  • Norm Smith Medal Means very little other than you had a great game once, although in the biggest game there is
  • All-Australian

Do successive years in the All-Australian team qualify you for elite status? 

Opinions please. Discuss. I would put elite in the top 5% of players in your position. By top I mean in a mix of various categories like pure talent (class), application, influence over a game, consistency.

C/ Who are destined (on their way) and showing signs of reaching elite status with our club? Posters have previously had big wraps on a number of players - Jess Hogan, Angus Brayshaw, Christian Petracca, Jack Viney.

 

D/ Where do others put current players such as: -

  • Nathan Jones  No but close, doesn't influence the game enough, just
  • Bernie Vince No but a touch closer than Jones as has more influence on the game and bit more pure talent
  • Jack Viney Not yet. Lacks pure talent but if he keeps going the way he is then that will come int eh next year or so
  • Max Gawn  Yes but needs to keep doing it for another year or so to truly be elite. 
  • Jack Watts No. May get there one day but no overly convinced. He is very good though
  • Jesse Hogan  Not yet, needs to put in more application to second efforts and chase more in order to have more influence over a game. Certainly has the talent
  • You missed Jetta, he is currently in the elite category for small defenders in the league. 

Those with potential to make it

Petracca - may well have the lot but way to early to say he will make it

Gus - May not have the pure talent but has the application and will influence games in future if last year is anything to go by

Oliver - certainly showing signs of being able to make it, again it is way to early to really say.

TMac - Very very close no matter what picket thinks. Just lacks in pure talent

Tyson - Is getting close on current form, just needs to do it for a whole year or two to make it and even then may only ever get close

Other who I think will be very good but probably not elite, Hunt, Wagner, Salem, OMac, and maybe Harmes and Kennedy

 

I haven't looked at Champion Data or anything, or any other stats in relation to this thread, I just wonder what opinions others have in assessing some of these players to the half way mark of the year in 2016 currently and their assessment when it comes to elite status for them.

For mine, my definition of elite status: -

  • In the top 3% of all AFL footballers. 
  • The marquee player of your team.
  • Most likely the highest paid in your team.
  • Player who is significant in contribution to win you games.
  • Consistently performs at a high standard.

 

Let's discuss the elite in our competition and where our players need to get to (or what the club needs to get), to be considered an elite team.

Answered in bold above, just seemed easier. 

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We have none, several capable, with Gawn very close right now.

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Neville Jetta. Seriously, among the top few small defenders (as opposed to backman) in the comp. You could find guys to make it an argument, but no one is far and away better than him at his role.

It's an entirely subjective measure. 

Play in a couple of prelims and suddenly we'll have players with 'elite status'. Most would say Jake Stringer is 'elite' and Jesse isn't there yet, but if they swapped teams undoubtedly it would be Jesse getting called elite. [if stats are your thing, it's Jesse hands down this season]

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I reckon you're elite if you're in the top 10% in your position. I reckon the following players are elite:

Gawn

Viney

I reckon the following players have the potential to be elite:

Brayshaw

Oliver

Hogan

McDonald

Petracca

I reckon the following players have a slight chance of being elite:

Salem

Tyson

I think Vince and Jones are on the next rung down from being elite. B+.

I reckon if you're elite for a number of years in a row, you become a champion. And I reckon you need 6 champions to win a flag. 

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I tend to think in grades, A+ being the elite. I think a premiership side needs roughly the following

5  A+: Preferably 1 defender, 1 foward and 3 mids
10 A graders: all over the ground
Mix of B+ and B players filling the rest of the 22-28 

Right now I would say we have a few A graders and a mountain of B/B+. The guys bold I believe can step up a grade or more in time. (each section is in no real order and I have skipped the guys we dont see in the seniors)

A+ 
 Gawn - He stands within a step of Goldy as the Comps number 1 ruckman. Fear the beard!! 

A
 Viney - Very, very close on numbers he will prob be A+ this time next year
 Bernie - Not going to get better but is the type we need
 Jones - Always a worrior but is no superstar
 Jetta - Freakish turn around, wont get any better but we dont need him to, just needs to stay consistant
 
B+
Tyson - Closest to A he has the talent. A grade and if he keeps his first half 2016 form 
TMac - Just the mistakes stop him from being a star defender, has the ability needs to lift
Garlett - Poor form recently but we have already gotten our moneys worth (which was next to free) 
Watts - Made the improvement we desperatly needed, just 1 more step to be an A grader
Oliver - Has so much and so young, could be a star, but alot of strings to be added for him to become A+, A grade will be enough, similar to tyson for me.
Brayshaw - Hard at it. skilled and a gun on both sides Im a sucker for ambidextrous player could one day be A, maybe A+
Hogan - Young and inconsistant, we all know he has what it takes to be the Nr 1 man. Any less than A+ would be a dissapointment, so much pressure, poor kid.
CP5 - Has everything, will be A grader, question is will he be A+?
Lumumba - Past his best but servicable for the next couple of years while kids develop

B
 Vanders - Improve his finishing and he will be B+ easy knocking on the door for A
 Kent - Teases talent and speed. should be an A grader but needs consistancy
 Hunt - Lightning quick and very raw, but i love what he brings, A grader? possible, but a solid B+ would probably be enough.
 Wagner - B+ no more i think, but we need them. B+ with skill and determination is exactly the players you want.
 Harmes - Has class (something we dont have much of), hardness and skill, could be an A grader with time, but i think B+ is more likely watch this space. 
 Stretch - Shown glimpses of A grade talent, now we wait to see what comes over the next 3 years. We are desperate for runners
 Salem - Needs to find the ball more and to get the body right. Has the A grade skill but idk if its A grade numbers, give him time
 Kennedy - Hard at it, Does the Job, good player but never going to be a super star
 Bugg - same as Kennedy, does job and thats enough.
 Dawes, Pederson - Role players
 M Jones - Stepped up into a solid role we needed before injury. I think deserves another shot but just a B grader
 Trengrove - tough case, all the odds against him but has tallent to be B+ 

C
 Frost - little more than an Athlete, but tries hard, could be a B grade defender but no more
 OMac - Skinny little ball of skill. few years off but i see huge upside B+ or higher
 ANB - Needs to be more than just an accumulator then he will step up. Unlikely to be an A grader though
 Michie, Newton - Good VFL players, depth

So I could see 2 elite by this time next year. We should have Hogan that will be pushing soon after and Oliver, CP5 and Brayshaw are all maybes. Too early to be sure. We still need more of the next level to be the elite side we want to be, but we have all the side pieces of the proverbial puzzle, now we need to fill the rest in.

Now I need to run for cover because some will clearly have very different views on some of these haha

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6 minutes ago, Ricky P said:

I reckon you're elite if you're in the top 10% in your position. I reckon the following players are elite:

Gawn

Viney

I reckon the following players have the potential to be elite:

Brayshaw

Oliver

Hogan

McDonald

Petracca

I reckon the following players have a slight chance of being elite:

Salem

Tyson

I think Vince and Jones are on the next rung down from being elite. B+.

I reckon if you're elite for a number of years in a row, you become a champion. And I reckon you need 6 champions to win a flag. 

Petracca

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2 minutes ago, samcantstandya said:

Petracca

haha yeah he's there mate in my 'potential to be elite' category!

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The core: Viney, Gawn, Jones, Vince, Hogan, Watts, TMac, Tyson, Jetta

The not quite core or "the crust" (young): Kent, Petracca, Brayshaw, Oliver, Salem, Hunt, Wagner, Harmes, Bugg, Kennedy, Frost, Stretch, Kennedy, AVB

Mature depth: Garlett, Dunn, Lumumba, Pedersen, Spencer.

Need more time to make calls: OMac, Trengove, Dawes

The expendable young group: ANB, JKH, Newton, Michie, 

The horse has bolted (somewhat harsh): Grimes, Garland, M.Jones, Terlich.

 

Just tried to categorise our list..well at least those who've played games. I factored in both my perspective and the club's

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38 minutes ago, Je Roos Salem said:

The core: Viney, Gawn, Jones, Vince, Hogan, Watts, TMac, Tyson, Jetta

The not quite core or "the crust" (young): Kent, Petracca, Brayshaw, Oliver, Salem, Hunt, Wagner, Harmes, Bugg, Kennedy, Frost, Stretch, Kennedy, AVB

Mature depth: Garlett, Dunn, Lumumba, Pedersen, Spencer.

Need more time to make calls: OMac, Trengove, Dawes

The expendable young group: ANB, JKH, Newton, Michie, 

The horse has bolted (somewhat harsh): Grimes, Garland, M.Jones, Terlich.

 

Just tried to categorise our list..well at least those who've played games. I factored in both my perspective and the club's

I agree for the most part with this one. Tyson and TMac still hovering between the two top categories.

Really don't think more time is required to make a call on Dawes though.

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If Pendles is elite then so is Nathan Jones.

If Mark Murphy is elite then so is Viney.

The term elite is a media fad.

More than ever it's about the 22 on ground.

Sadly,

Sam Mitchell is probably the only consistently brilliant little *&^% running around,week in,week out .

Edited by Biffen
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7 minutes ago, Django said:

I agree for the most part with this one. Tyson and TMac still hovering between the two top categories.

Really don't think more time is required to make a call on Dawes though.

Yeah I was tossing up with Dawes, he's missed the mark for a while but I just considered the fact he got back in the team and looked alright for at least his first 2 back. Wouldn't have had Tyson in at the start of the year, and probably would've had Garlett and Dunn. TMac has been the most scrutinised out of that core group this year, but I still think he's a reliable player and a mature head for 23

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10 minutes ago, Biffen said:

If Pendles is elite then so is Nathan Jones.

If Mark Murphy is elite then so is Viney.

The term elite is a media fad.

More than ever it's about the 22 on ground.

Sadly,

Sam Mitchell is probably the only consistently brilliant little *&^% running around,week in,week out .

Absolutely what it comes down to. It's a buzz word and trying to measure 'elite' won't really get us anywhere I feel.

Can't agree with the comparison between Jones and Pendlebury though. While he has been a little down this year, Pendles is a very, very good player and better than Jones. Murphy is extremely overrated though.

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Anybody here seen or read "Watchmen"?

Discussing imaginary meaningless grades of players is as nourishing to the intellect as a photograph of oxygen to a drowning man.

 

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Doesn't the AFL prospectus have these rankings based on various measures?

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2 minutes ago, stuie said:

Anybody here seen or read "Watchmen"?

Discussing imaginary meaningless grades of players is as nourishing to the intellect as a photograph of oxygen to a drowning man.

 

Cheer up Stu. Even though Eddie got out of jail, Brad Scott got fined $30k.

FWIW I think Gawn is our only elite player currently with Viney not far behind. Amazing how far those two have come in the last 12 mths.

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5 minutes ago, grazman said:

Doesn't the AFL prospectus have these rankings based on various measures?

Forget any of the AFL ratings. Max Gawn is currently the 8th best ruckman in the competition according to them, a spot behind Ivan Maric.

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19 minutes ago, Django said:

Forget any of the AFL ratings. Max Gawn is currently the 8th best ruckman in the competition according to them, a spot behind Ivan Maric.

That's hilarious! Probably have Jarrod Witts no1...

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Gawn is elite. No doubt about it. If he was an unrestricted free agent this year he would have 18 offers for his services.

You are elite when every club wants you.

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12 minutes ago, Adzman said:

Gawn is elite. No doubt about it. If he was an unrestricted free agent this year he would have 18 offers for his services.

You are elite when every club wants you.

Comfortably elite. AA ruck man. Just a dominant force. Very underrated ruck man IMO.

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3 hours ago, Django said:

Forget any of the AFL ratings. Max Gawn is currently the 8th best ruckman in the competition according to them, a spot behind Ivan Maric.

Probably the best illustration of how farcical those ratings are.

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Gawn is our only elite player at present. Outsiders would argue tyhat there needs to be a larger sample size but I think we've seen enough to know that he's an elite ruckman.

Jones, Vince and Viney (with two fully functioning hands) are A graders. Tyson lacks the consistency to be classed as such.

Tom McDonald's C grade attributes bring his overall rating down from A to B.

Hogan needs to increase his defensive output to become an A grader. One tackle every now and then won't cut it. Long distance set shots are also a mild concern. Contested marking wise, which is pretty damn important, he is elite. Overall though, he's still a B grader.

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38 minutes ago, P-man said:

Probably the best illustration of how farcical those ratings are.

The AFL ratings are based off a two year rolling window, so it probably is much stronger indication of consistent football over a prolonged period rather than this years. 

 

In terms of elite, I like the champion data method of top 10% in each position and whilst we had none at the start of this year we will probably have two Max Gawn and Jack Viney off this years stats. 

Jesse Hogan and Jack Watts could well be close based of stats this year, but I have no understanding of the categories used. Marks, goals and score involvements would be important for a forward and I think that would put both in the above average category or top 35%

 

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9 minutes ago, Mad_Melbourne said:

The AFL ratings are based off a two year rolling window, so it probably is much stronger indication of consistent football over a prolonged period rather than this years. 

They lack currency and overall relevance to me. I would also seriously question their criteria when looking at some of their rankings over recent years.

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Elite to me is the player that isn't just the one that gets BOG in wins, but also does it in losses. The one that when you are 5 goals down halfway in the third that is suddenly everywhere, and who does it too many times to be a fluke. Judd did it. Hird did it. Both Abletts did/do it. Carey, Flower, Buddy etc. A grade is great talent. Elite is genius.What is the saying? Talent does what it can, genius does what it what it must...

I think Gawn is very very close to it, Viney might get there, and Petracca has that spark to be such a player and pass both.

The rest mentioned are A or B. That's no slight on them, but elite is the player that when the ball is near them you stand up and watch only them because you expect them to do something sublime.

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