WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT JACK

[monoccular 16,010]

19 hours ago, hoopla said:

This thread has rolled into its third page - and no one has focussed on a fundamental point in assessing Trenners standing in our list.

The club carefully assessed his abilities 2 years ago - and decided to trade him for a 2nd round pick. He was slow - without the quick reflexes / narrow turning circle of a Sam Mitchell. I had hoped that his lack of acceleration was somehow caused by his injured foot. It's now looking like his athletic  limitations are permanent.

i'm sure the club will give another year to prove he is in our best 22 - but the jury is still out on that.

He's been given an opportunity while Brsyshaw has been unavailable . Salem Is unavailable .Garlett, Harmes and Grimes are  at Casey.

I would be rapt if he finds a permanent niche at our club - but at 24 he's got a way to go.

 

After no preseason to speak of and three games, two of which were wet (one absolute quagmire) and you write him off!  Like many reasonable folk here I will give him next preseason and next year before I even consider that. 

[hoopla 418]

Please don't misinterpret my comments

I just think it is important to remember that Roos/Goodwin/Viney and Co only rated him a B Grader at the end of 2014

May be after a full pre-season he will prove them all wrong. But we shouldn't expect too much. If he starts knocking on the door of our best 22 - it will be a bonus  for the club- and I think we should see it that way. 

A lot of Demonlanders are wishing/ hoping to get Prestia. Would you trade Jack for him ? Would the Gold Coast see that as a far deal?

[Wilson7 2,474]

8 hours ago, hoopla said:

Please don't misinterpret my comments

I just think it is important to remember that Roos/Goodwin/Viney and Co only rated him a B Grader at the end of 2014

May be after a full pre-season he will prove them all wrong. But we shouldn't expect too much. If he starts knocking on the door of our best 22 - it will be a bonus  for the club- and I think we should see it that way. 

A lot of Demonlanders are wishing/ hoping to get Prestia. Would you trade Jack for him ? Would the Gold Coast see that as a far deal?

Would you trade Jack for him ? - Absolutely
Would the Gold Coast see that as a far deal ? - They would laugh at us

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,149]

11 hours ago, hoopla said:

Please don't misinterpret my comments

I just think it is important to remember that Roos/Goodwin/Viney and Co only rated him a B Grader at the end of 2014

May be after a full pre-season he will prove them all wrong. But we shouldn't expect too much. If he starts knocking on the door of our best 22 - it will be a bonus  for the club- and I think we should see it that way. 

A lot of Demonlanders are wishing/ hoping to get Prestia. Would you trade Jack for him ? Would the Gold Coast see that as a far deal?

Did they rate him as a B grader?  They were going to get pick 12.

He did knock on the door of our best 22... in fact he beat relentlessly on it for weeks on end with outstanding performances in the VFL.  Credit where credit is due; it's not nostalgia that sees him in the team at the moment, it's consistent good performances at Casey. 

[hemingway 7,583]

At the time of the proposed trade, he had been playing all season with a dodgy foot that had been not been diagnosed by the MFC medical staff. It was properly assessed by the RFC which was a poor reflection of medical management at that time.

Having said that, Jack is not naturally quick, foot injury or not. Although the injury would not help. 

However, he has good skills and is footy smart. In that first year with Scully, I thought that Jack would be the better player simply because of his skills and footy smarts..

He can win the contested ball and is a competitive beast. He is a ferocious tackler and a team player with leadership qualities. So I think his lack of pace is offset by his other attributes. By all accounts, he has been a role model to others (such as Petracca) in the way he has gone about his rehab. However, he is now competing against a whole new group of young promising players so he will have to work hard to maintain a place in the side. 

I think the bigger hurdle for Jack is whether his foot will hold up long term. His foot will never be the same or be as good as new. So he will play with this limiting factor. It is an injury that has a poor prognosis due to the demands of the sport and harder grounds. Maintaining consistency and form may prove difficult if he is unable to play from week to week. 

He deserves another season before judgement is passed.

[beelzebub 22,225]

So much conjecture.

Fact . Melb offered him a 1 year just to see how he might rebound (or if .. ) !!

He has. To the point he's back playing. He'll  only improve . Again...no preseason, so he's not cherry ripe

I'd be betting hell be offered 2 years on a fairly average remuneration but with good performance triggers and bonuses.

It's a win win.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Was my favourite way-back-when. 

And I still love him. 

But I do fear for his future at the club. I agree with Hemmingway however.

Now that he is playing AFL footy and his body is coping, I think the next progression for him is to really work on his power/acceleration over the off-season in order to give himself an opportunity to be part of the future.

I'm hoping for him. But looking at Brayshaw, Oliver, Petracca, Viney etc. It's hard to see where he fits in.

[daisycutter 28,452]

18 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

So much conjecture.

Fact . Melb offered him a 1 year just to see how he might rebound (or if .. ) !!

He has. To the point he's back playing. He'll  only improve . Again...no preseason, so he's not cherry ripe

I'd be betting hell be offered 2 years on a fairly average remuneration but with good performance triggers and bonuses.

It's a win win.

i suspect more likely a 1+1 contract with triggers would be more pragmatic

 

[beelzebub 22,225]

24 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

i suspect more likely a 1+1 contract with triggers would be more pragmatic

 

similar

[thesleepinggiant 160]

Theres nothing wrong with Jack, seriously though some posters have no f#@!! idea.....

Those calling his game slow should take note the conditions he played in, time out of game ffs. I noticed quite a bit vs Hawthorn he gets in the right spots consistently only to be let down by teammates delivery i.e. position himself at top of goal square for short kick/ chest mark and the ball goes nowhere near him. Its his teammates not Jack who needs to read/play better!

Once the younger guys step up and delivery has improved u watch his game go on the upward trajectory as he doesn't need to be flash when he has a elite football brain. Knock him at ur peril!

[Lord Travis 10,141]

I don't understand why he's being criticized on here. On form since his return a few weeks ago he's in our top dozen players. How is he being criticized for this? I know we all get excited by our young talent but at the end of the day he's performing better than most of them and will get better as he gets fitter. Until that young talent surpasses him, and if he maintains his current form, he is automatically best 22. End thread.

[Wiseblood 24,636]

Just now, hemingway said:

At the time of the proposed trade, he had been playing all season with a dodgy foot that had been not been diagnosed by the MFC medical staff. It was properly assessed by the RFC which was a poor reflection of medical management at that time.

Having said that, Jack is not naturally quick, foot injury or not. Although the injury would not help. 

However, he has good skills and is footy smart. In that first year with Scully, I thought that Jack would be the better player simply because of his skills and footy smarts..

He can win the contested ball and is a competitive beast. He is a ferocious tackler and a team player with leadership qualities. So I think his lack of pace is offset by his other attributes. By all accounts, he has been a role model to others (such as Petracca) in the way he has gone about his rehab. However, he is now competing against a whole new group of young promising players so he will have to work hard to maintain a place in the side. 

I think the bigger hurdle for Jack is whether his foot will hold up long term. His foot will never be the same or be as good as new. So he will play with this limiting factor. It is an injury that has a poor prognosis due to the demands of the sport and harder grounds. Maintaining consistency and form may prove difficult if he is unable to play from week to week. 

He deserves another season before judgement is passed.

Wrong.  He hadn't played a game since Round 2 of 2014, and had been rehabbing his foot for the entire year becasue of it.  When we put him up for trade, and Richmond were keen, it was found that there had been a recurrence of the injury and he would need to spend another year out of the game to get it right.   Thus, the trade fell through.

[ArtificialWisdom 3,844]

2 hours ago, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

Did they rate him as a B grader?  They were going to get pick 12.

He did knock on the door of our best 22... in fact he beat relentlessly on it for weeks on end with outstanding performances in the VFL.  Credit where credit is due; it's not nostalgia that sees him in the team at the moment, it's consistent good performances at Casey. 

Getting a game doesnt mean you're in the best 22. I would take a fit and fireing Brayshaw, Garlett or Salem over jack maybe even lumumba ahead as well.  Grimes is also showing consistent good performances at casey but he isnt in the 22 because there are others ahead of him. Jack has his chance due to injuries and has done ok so far, but there hasn't been anything to suggest he will cement a spot going forward. I would suggest in the same amount of time M Jones showed more this year but he isnt getting the same support as Jack. Jack is showing good B grade form but i would like to see some glimpses of that higher potential he showed as a kid. He will get more chances as this year and next year come and go. We'll see, hope I'm wrong! 

39 minutes ago, thesleepinggiant said:

Theres nothing wrong with Jack, seriously though some posters have no f#@!! idea.....

Those calling his game slow should take note the conditions he played in, time out of game ffs. I noticed quite a bit vs Hawthorn he gets in the right spots consistently only to be let down by teammates delivery i.e. position himself at top of goal square for short kick/ chest mark and the ball goes nowhere near him. Its his teammates not Jack who needs to read/play better!

Once the younger guys step up and delivery has improved u watch his game go on the upward trajectory as he doesn't need to be flash when he has a elite football brain. Knock him at ur peril!

If you think that the way jack has played is going to be enough then we will never be a premiership side. Jack is capable of more as are his teammates. Both need to improve, jack standing in the goal square wanting a 80m long kick over the top does not mean his teammates are providing poor delivery that means he is out of position. Saying Jack requires good teammates is a consern if you miss the target, players like viney, bernie, tyson, jones etc are quick enough to make it work even though they arnt speedsters jack can't he gets beaten to the contest by a few meters. He'll get better with more time and strength, 100% he will get an extention maybe a year or 2, but people seem to be living in a delusion that he is just as likely to make it as a Brayshaw or a CP5. His deficincies and his injuries makes it extraordinarily difficult, but, not impossible.

[george_on_the_outer 6,944]

Jack will be on the list next year because White, Newton, Michie, Terlich (and if things keep going badly for Grimes and Lamumba),  will be missing.

We don't have a first round pick which means if we delist 4 or 5 as every side does, then the question becomes "is keeping Jack ( or any of the fore mentioned) better than what we could pick in the 90's or 100's?"

At the moment he is playing in the first 22....all these others aren't.

[thesleepinggiant 160]

26 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

Getting a game doesnt mean you're in the best 22. I would take a fit and fireing Brayshaw, Garlett or Salem over jack maybe even lumumba ahead as well.  Grimes is also showing consistent good performances at casey but he isnt in the 22 because there are others ahead of him. Jack has his chance due to injuries and has done ok so far, but there hasn't been anything to suggest he will cement a spot going forward. I would suggest in the same amount of time M Jones showed more this year but he isnt getting the same support as Jack. Jack is showing good B grade form but i would like to see some glimpses of that higher potential he showed as a kid. He will get more chances as this year and next year come and go. We'll see, hope I'm wrong! 

If you think that the way jack has played is going to be enough then we will never be a premiership side. Jack is capable of more as are his teammates. Both need to improve, jack standing in the goal square wanting a 80m long kick over the top does not mean his teammates are providing poor delivery that means he is out of position. Saying Jack requires good teammates is a consern if you miss the target, players like viney, bernie, tyson, jones etc are quick enough to make it work even though they arnt speedsters jack can't he gets beaten to the contest by a few meters. He'll get better with more time and strength, 100% he will get an extention maybe a year or 2, but people seem to be living in a delusion that he is just as likely to make it as a Brayshaw or a CP5. His deficincies and his injuries makes it extraordinarily difficult, but, not impossible.

Since where abouts in my post does it say he will bring home or be responsible for our premiership??.

Really cant be f@!# posting on here anymore, deadset dipshits on this site 

[Uncle Fester 2,834]

38 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

Getting a game doesnt mean you're in the best 22. I would take a fit and fireing Brayshaw, Garlett or Salem over jack maybe even lumumba ahead as well.  .

Stopped reading there. He has one string to his bow.... run around as fast as he can can bomb it. I hope he never gets another game at this club.

 

Jack I hope gets another 100

[ArtificialWisdom 3,844]

5 minutes ago, thesleepinggiant said:

Since where abouts in my post does it say he will bring home or be responsible for our premiership??.

Really cant be f@!# posting on here anymore, deadset dipshits on this site 

Chill man, I'm looking at this from a whole club perspective. At his age I would like to think we would be fighting for a flag before he is much over 30. That means if he is at he club we need him to improve. My consern is that his body will not allow him to either through injury or through his athletic limits. I'm not happy about it and i dont hate the guy its just the reality.

7 minutes ago, Uncle Fester said:

Stopped reading there. He has one string to his bow.... run around as fast as he can can bomb it. I hope he never gets another game at this club.

Jack I hope gets another 100

Well thats a bit silly isnt it. Read part of a comment then assume the rest. I could have said anything after that. FWIW I'd like to see lumumba play for another year or 2 and Jack for another 7 or 8 but i just think it is unlikely.

 

[Uncle Fester 2,834]

1 minute ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

Well thats a bit silly isnt it. Read part of a comment then assume the rest. I could have said anything after that. FWIW I'd like to see lumumba play for another year or 2 and Jack for another 7 or 8 but i just think it is unlikely.

 

Silly if I thught there was some sense if a good post there, but but I want seening it.

 

 don't rate Harry. Never have never will. Trenners is silk. Injured sik, NQR fitness silk.maybe never get back to his best silk, but silk.So yeah, that's where I stopped reading

[Lucifers Hero 36,983]

3 hours ago, hemingway said:

At the time of the proposed trade, he had been playing all season with a dodgy foot that had been not been diagnosed by the MFC medical staff. It was properly assessed by the RFC which was a poor reflection of medical management at that time.

Having said that, Jack is not naturally quick, foot injury or not. Although the injury would not help. 

However, he has good skills and is footy smart. In that first year with Scully, I thought that Jack would be the better player simply because of his skills and footy smarts..

He can win the contested ball and is a competitive beast. He is a ferocious tackler and a team player with leadership qualities. So I think his lack of pace is offset by his other attributes. By all accounts, he has been a role model to others (such as Petracca) in the way he has gone about his rehab. However, he is now competing against a whole new group of young promising players so he will have to work hard to maintain a place in the side. 

I think the bigger hurdle for Jack is whether his foot will hold up long term. His foot will never be the same or be as good as new. So he will play with this limiting factor. It is an injury that has a poor prognosis due to the demands of the sport and harder grounds. Maintaining consistency and form may prove difficult if he is unable to play from week to week. 

He deserves another season before judgement is passed.

Always enjoy your words, mr hemingway so A Very Big Thank You for putting paragraphs in your posts. 

My enjoyment of your posts has gone up immeasurably as a result.

[hemingway 7,583]

1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

Wrong.  He hadn't played a game since Round 2 of 2014, and had been rehabbing his foot for the entire year becasue of it.  When we put him up for trade, and Richmond were keen, it was found that there had been a recurrence of the injury and he would need to spend another year out of the game to get it right.   Thus, the trade fell through.

Okay thanks for the factual correction. In regard to my implicit criticism of the MFC medical management, my understanding was that the full extent of the injury was found after RFC scanned the foot, something not done by MFC.

The analogy being that if you went to two doctors or specialists and one investigated the complaint by scan and one didn't, it would reflect badly on the one that failed to investigate. The fact is that some doctors have very good diagnostic skills that include proper investigation and others don't. The reason that many cancers develop is that the initial doctor fails to investigate or make an accurate diagnosis. Sometimes it's missed due to poor assessment (poor skills), omission or lack of care.

In any event, my main point was that Jack has the skills (although not the pace), but that the health of his foot will be the main determinant of whether he makes it over the longer term.

[Watts the matter 1,235]

1 hour ago, george_on_the_outer said:

Jack will be on the list next year because White, Newton, Michie, Terlich (and if things keep going badly for Grimes and Lamumba),  will be missing.

We don't have a first round pick which means if we delist 4 or 5 as every side does, then the question becomes "is keeping Jack ( or any of the fore mentioned) better than what we could pick in the 90's or 100's?"

At the moment he is playing in the first 22....all these others aren't.

White? Really? Based on what? I'd be shocked if that is the case.

Sentiment aside, has Trengove shown more than Newton or Michie this year? 

I do expect he will be given another year and that's fine but two years would just add to a number of very poor decisions we have made with contracts.

[Wiseblood 24,636]

Just now, Watts the matter said:

White? Really? Based on what? I'd be shocked if that is the case.

Sentiment aside, has Trengove shown more than Newton or Michie this year? 

I do expect he will be given another year and that's fine but two years would just add to a number of very poor decisions we have made with contracts.

Yes.  

[Skuit 9,109]

I have a question that is in no way whatsoever a veiled opinion. Some posters have questioned Trenners pace. A common response is that Jack is a smart footballer with good skills. I'm curious if there are some ready examples of highly skilled ' dumb' footballers?

[rjay 23,852]

1 hour ago, Skuit said:

I have a question that is in no way whatsoever a veiled opinion. Some posters have questioned Trenners pace. A common response is that Jack is a smart footballer with good skills. I'm curious if there are some ready examples of highly skilled ' dumb' footballers?

Yes, a highly skilled dumb footballer with pace that comes to mind is Murdoch at Geelong. I would have put Stanley in the same bracket when he was with the Saints but he seems to have come on a fair bit since being with the Cats and spending more time in the ruck.

edit: skilled dumb footballers can often get to where the ball aint a lot...

Edited June 23, 2016 by rjay

[Skuit 9,109]

2 hours ago, rjay said:

Yes, a highly skilled dumb footballer with pace that comes to mind is Murdoch at Geelong. I would have put Stanley in the same bracket when he was with the Saints but he seems to have come on a fair bit since being with the Cats and spending more time in the ruck.

edit: skilled dumb footballers can often get to where the ball aint a lot...

Probably inviting a whole can of worms - but who would you consider the closest to that category from our club rjay?