WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT JACK

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Just now, ArtificialWisdom said:

So? Tmac is easily the best aerobic athlete at the club and a fair chunk of DL wants to trade him at years end! (which is another delusional idea but thats for another time). The modern game is about burst speed something that Jack doesn't have. You dont need to run 100m in a sprint very often just 20/30m. Most slow players like Tyson, Jetta, Mitchell and Bartell can put the after burners on just enough to keep up to make a contest even if they get to the ball second. My problem is that Trenners just cant, its not from a lack of effort he just isnt physically capable. 

I'm thinking of an instance in the hawthorn game first qtr. He was side but side with his man they both sprinted 20m to get to the ball after a watts skyball out of congestion and in that short run trenners was already 8 or 9m behind and unable to impact. That kind of pace is what he has lacked even before his injury which now would have diminished even further. He will likely never get back to his fastest pace which was already very slow...

His skills and Aerobic capacity are unquestioned, but if he cant find a way to get a little more burst speed he wont make it. Yes he deserves a full pre-season and yes there is a spot for him on our list next year, but I have really big doubts on if he will ever make it. He is a top bloke, a fantastic clubman, and could be one of footy's greatest stories but flags are not won on sentimentality. That all being said I also thought he wouldn't ever play again. He proved me wrong once, hopefully he can prove me wrong again.

While I'm not one of those people who want him traded, to equate being a great aerobic athlete to being a great footballer is just silly.  It's a handy attribute but it's no reason to keep someone at your club.  If they struggle with the basics then they aren't going to be much of a player.

[PaulRB 6,362]

1 hour ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

So? Tmac is easily the best aerobic athlete at the club and a fair chunk of DL wants to trade him at years end! (which is another delusional idea but thats for another time). The modern game is about burst speed something that Jack doesn't have. You dont need to run 100m in a sprint very often just 20/30m. Most slow players like Tyson, Jetta, Mitchell and Bartell can put the after burners on just enough to keep up to make a contest even if they get to the ball second. My problem is that Trenners just cant, its not from a lack of effort he just isnt physically capable. 

I'm thinking of an instance in the hawthorn game first qtr. He was side but side with his man they both sprinted 20m to get to the ball after a watts skyball out of congestion and in that short run trenners was already 8 or 9m behind and unable to impact. That kind of pace is what he has lacked even before his injury which now would have diminished even further. He will likely never get back to his fastest pace which was already very slow...

His skills and Aerobic capacity are unquestioned, but if he cant find a way to get a little more burst speed he wont make it. Yes he deserves a full pre-season and yes there is a spot for him on our list next year, but I have really big doubts on if he will ever make it. He is a top bloke, a fantastic clubman, and could be one of footy's greatest stories but flags are not won on sentimentality. That all being said I also thought he wouldn't ever play again. He proved me wrong once, hopefully he can prove me wrong again.

I think to write off and make questionable absolute (negative) claims about a player whose been out of the game for two years and playing AFL level for just three games, says more about you and your need for attention, then it does about Jack. 

Given where Jack's come from to even play at AFL level this year, ahead of schedule, is a testament to his capacity to work on his body to get it right. I'll back Jack's ability to continue to develop himself and play AFL footy over your cheap point scoring with insufficient data and knowledge.

Edited June 21, 2016 by PaulRB

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

14 minutes ago, PaulRB said:

I think to write off and make questionable absolute (negative) claims about a player whose been out of the game for two years and playing AFL level for just three games, says more about you and your need for attention, then it does about Jack. 

Given where Jack's come from to even play at AFL level this year, ahead of schedule, is a testament to his capacity to work on his body to get it right. I'll back Jack's ability to continue to develop himself and play AFL footy over your cheap point scoring with insufficient data and knowledge.

Ok so 2 things,
Im assuming your first statement is more directed at all of the people in this thread in general not just me but as it ws quoting me id like to point out its a lazy argument to suggest I simply post that for attention. Jack's story is facinating and interesting to talk about, and im trying to do it with an objective look and not let emotion too much cloud my judgement. 

Secondly you're 100% right it is a testament to him and I have no doubt he will continue to work hard to improve. I have nothing against him but if you want to talk data you come back and tell me how many players have had 2 year long injuries especially ones in their feet and ended up having super successfull careers. There was a time when they were just rehabing him just to be able to walk properly for the rest of his life. People get cruelled by injury, its an unfortunate reality of sport. I want to be proven wrong so badly, I'd love nothing more to stand up and applaude as he walks to the podium collecting a premiership medal. But life doesnt always have such fairy tales. I have not written him off completely by any means but I have doubts, which I think deep down you would have some too.

[PaulRB 6,362]

Sure its general to all threads and the many discussions on here where there is insufficient data to actually conclude. So the situation with Jack is we don't know a fair amount about where he's at, his ceiling, his role and ability to perform that role, and how it will turn out.

So there's a debate, yadda yadda, that's what we're here to engage with. But then someone turns a opinion based on "we don't know" into a campaign to somehow prove their point... they claim to "know" when they don't know and insisting they are right, and that's where their intention becomes revealed.

I'm comfortable with all of the above stuff until its becomes clear that the intention being pushed is actually detrimental, disrespectful and nasty toward the player, the person we are discussing. Jack T is a former captain of the club during a woeful time and from all accounts a dedicated, professional person who has relentlessly pursued his rehabilitation and earned his spot in our team. To push a line as you (and others) have that he's never going to make it, when we don't know, is ugly to me and why I responded as I did. 

Edited June 21, 2016 by PaulRB

[Biffen 12,943]

He can tackle,kick,handball,mark above his head,run,kick straight for goal.

When he has a run at it he will be in the first ten picked.

He will take a few games to show his true abilities again but for mine he is holding his own.

[Return to Glory 8,436]

If his foot stays right and he has a full pre season I'm confident that he will silence the doubters. The key - he needs an uninterrupted run at it.

[hoopla 418]

This thread has rolled into its third page - and no one has focussed on a fundamental point in assessing Trenners standing in our list.

The club carefully assessed his abilities 2 years ago - and decided to trade him for a 2nd round pick. He was slow - without the quick reflexes / narrow turning circle of a Sam Mitchell. I had hoped that his lack of acceleration was somehow caused by his injured foot. It's now looking like his athletic  limitations are permanent.

i'm sure the club will give another year to prove he is in our best 22 - but the jury is still out on that.

He's been given an opportunity while Brsyshaw has been unavailable . Salem Is unavailable .Garlett, Harmes and Grimes are  at Casey.

I would be rapt if he finds a permanent niche at our club - but at 24 he's got a way to go.

 

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,175]

He'll be fine but expect he will lose his spot in back half of year. Still picking up the pace and doing most of this without proper preparation so well worth a go around again next year. Not being helped currently by being played on a wing would much prefer to see him pushed through the inside more. 

[Adam The God 30,239]

11 hours ago, stuie said:

Wasn't comparing them, but you could easily.

My point was everyone is banging on about our "slow midfielder who averages 20 possessions" and that's exactly what Tyson is.

If you wanted to compare their "ceiling" you could go with the facts that they are both about the same age, still young, and are both former high draft picks. One has missed nearly two years of footy though so a bit hard to judge his "ceiling" at this stage i would have thought, but going by facts you'd say it's fairly similar really.

Let's also not forget, Trengove has already captained this club, Tyson will never be in the leadership group.

 

Disagree that Tyson will never be in the leadership group. When discussing whether Viney could be the next captain the other day, Roos mentioned Tyson in the captain conversation. 

[stuie 7,374]

11 minutes ago, AdamPleb said:

Disagree that Tyson will never be in the leadership group. When discussing whether Viney could be the next captain the other day, Roos mentioned Tyson in the captain conversation. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he's a bad bloke or sets a bad example or anything of the like, I just don't think he has the personality for it, and I'd actually be surprised if he genuinely wanted to be in the leadership group.

 

[beelzebub 23,364]

44 minutes ago, hoopla said:

This thread has rolled into its third page - and no one has focussed on a fundamental point in assessing Trenners standing in our list

Actually I think I broached it.

He hasn't had a full preseason.

When he has this...assess away.

He's  doing pretty good ok reckon.

[hoopla 418]

45 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

EActually I think I broached it.

He hasn't had a full preseason.

When he has this...assess away.

He's  doing pretty good ok reckon.

Probably true - he is doing "ok"

In his first year he looked as if he'd be "more than ok" - and you'd like to think he'll have to be "more than ok" to be a permanent member of our side in 2017.

He's got character .He will improve his endurance - he's a fair kick - he can mark for his inches - his hands are sound. 

What position is he going to make his own? An inside mid ? A defensive forward? Not sure he's quick enough to be an effective small forward - which leaves inside mid.If  not that ,not sure there's much else.

Big pre-season coming up for him. He' s going to have to at least match the improvement in others. As a mature aged player this will not be easy.

Edited June 21, 2016 by hoopla

[DemonWA 3,934]

I agree. Will be interesting to see if they re-sign Trengove before the trade period.

 

2 hours ago, hoopla said:

The club carefully assessed his abilities 2 years ago - and decided to trade him for a 2nd round pick. He was slow - without the quick reflexes / narrow turning circle of a Sam Mitchell. I had hoped that his lack of acceleration was somehow caused by his injured foot. It's now looking like his athletic  limitations are permanent.

 

 

[Dr. Mubutu 851]

2 hours ago, hoopla said:

This thread has rolled into its third page - and no one has focussed on a fundamental point in assessing Trenners standing in our list.

The club carefully assessed his abilities 2 years ago - and decided to trade him for a 2nd round pick. He was slow - without the quick reflexes / narrow turning circle of a Sam Mitchell. I had hoped that his lack of acceleration was somehow caused by his injured foot. It's now looking like his athletic  limitations are permanent.

i'm sure the club will give another year to prove he is in our best 22 - but the jury is still out on that.

He's been given an opportunity while Brsyshaw has been unavailable . Salem Is unavailable .Garlett, Harmes and Grimes are  at Casey.

I would be rapt if he finds a permanent niche at our club - but at 24 he's got a way to go.

 

Not sure it's as black and white as that; wasn't this part of a larger machination to land a big fish?

[rjay 24,919]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Mubutu said:

Not sure it's as black and white as that; wasn't this part of a larger machination to land a big fish?

Correct 'Dr', definitely not so black and white at all...

There were a few things in play and one was the possible drafting of Lever who we were interested in.

[Akum 2,660]

It's stating the obvious but it has to be stated - Trengove hasn't yet reached his physical ceiling, or anywhere near it. And it's simply premature to make judgments on his long-term outcome until he does.

Remember, when his leg came out of plaster, that photo that showed how withered his calf muscles were? OK, maybe that was a year or so ago, but it would not have fully recovered to anywhere near "physical ceiling" level.

I thought that both Trengove and Dawes had trouble changing direction on Sunday. In those conditions they certainly weren't the only ones, but on the slippery surface the condition of their leg muscles wouldn't be able to slow them down enough to change direction, so they weren't able to run anywhere near full pace.

Same probably applies to VdB, though I didn't notice him as much. Were there any others who were "managing" ankle or calf or knee injuries? Didn't BenKen have ankle problems in the preseason? He was another one who seemed to have trouble changing direction. Again, perhaps it wasn't a good idea to take 3 or 4 players in this condition into a match on such an unstable surface.

But Trengove has shown, even at this stage, that he's worth his place on the list for another year or two. It's reasonable to expect that he would continue to improve with another pre-season or two, barring further injury, until he reaches his physical ceiling. He'll only be 26, and it will probably be only then that we can be definitive about whether he's a keeper or not.

[Undeeterred 3,123]

This is the kind of thread someone starts because they are bored at work and have to generate a non-existent problem to talk about.

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,503]

14 hours ago, hoopla said:

This thread has rolled into its third page - and no one has focussed on a fundamental point in assessing Trenners standing in our list.

The club carefully assessed his abilities 2 years ago - and decided to trade him for a 2nd round pick. He was slow - without the quick reflexes / narrow turning circle of a Sam Mitchell. I had hoped that his lack of acceleration was somehow caused by his injured foot. It's now looking like his athletic  limitations are permanent.

i'm sure the club will give another year to prove he is in our best 22 - but the jury is still out on that.

He's been given an opportunity while Brsyshaw has been unavailable . Salem Is unavailable .Garlett, Harmes and Grimes are  at Casey.

I would be rapt if he finds a permanent niche at our club - but at 24 he's got a way to go.

 

In fairness, Richmond and Melbourne assessed his value in 2014to be a first round pick, not a second.  

To put that in perspective, Melbourne would have lost Trengove and our second round pick for pick 12 - Richmond therefore rated Trengove as more valuable than Pick 12: Corey Ellis, Pick 13: Lachlan Weller and Pick 14: Jake Lever in that draft. 

[jnrmac 20,060]

On 6/20/2016 at 7:13 PM, Ethan Tremblay said:

Have I missed something or has he only played three games (two in heavy rain) since coming back from being out for two years? I sometimes think posters on here enjoy seeing our players fail. 

It's amazing isn't it.

Give me a slow player with a footy brain than a fast player with none.

[Lucifers Hero 39,758]

3 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

It's amazing isn't it.

Give me a slow player with a footy brain than a fast player with none.

Good point, jnrmac - Easy choice when it is Trengove vs Blease!

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

9 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Good point, jnrmac - Easy choice when it is Trengove vs Blease!

That is an easy choice because blease wasnt competitive enough, but out of curiosity who would you take out of Hunt and Trengrove? I think what Hunt brings is more valuable than what trenners does. We have lots of trengrove-like players. Obviously in a perfect world we would have both, but i just wonder what you think when looking at a player who has more upside than blease ever did.

[beelzebub 23,364]

The thing about  Trenners  ( for mine ) is he has some qualities that exist in some but rarely as a combination.. He has poise, calm, and reasoned thinking before disposal.

This otherwise known as "doesnt [censored] up too often "

Haste can be waste 

Edited June 22, 2016 by beelzebub

[Lucifers Hero 39,758]

1 minute ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

That is an easy choice because blease wasnt competitive enough, but out of curiosity who would you take out of Hunt and Trengrove? I think what Hunt brings is more valuable than what trenners does. We have lots of trengrove-like players. Obviously in a perfect world we would have both, but i just wonder what you think when looking at a player who has more upside than blease ever did.

...Trengove vs Blease was in response to jnrmac's specific question.

You have posed an agonising question as Trengove has always been a fave and I have been a huge fan of Hunt since I saw him throw himself at everything in the Hawks game.  He has fabulous attack on the ball and plays with intent and relentless aggression, virtually 100% of the time...a bit like Trengove when he started and was fit.

I would have to go with Hunt

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

7 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

...Trengove vs Blease was in response to jnrmac's specific question.

You have posed an agonising question as Trengove has always been a fave and I have been a huge fan of Hunt since I saw him throw himself at everything in the Hawks game.  He has fabulous attack on the ball and plays with intent and relentless aggression, virtually 100% of the time...a bit like Trengove when he started and was fit.

I would have to go with Hunt

I think thats the biggest point right now its tough to think about. We all want to see Trenners be a star or even just a good role player, but its so hard to do form where he has been. I'll keep hoping but it just seems so unlikely. But hell if leicester city and cleveland can win their respective championships then anything can happen! 

[deeko 952]

HFF is his spot for mine. It's where he did his damage for Sturt what feels like an eternity ago. Couple of my mates played with him there for that season. 

I think we shanked his development by loading the muscle on him for an inside mid role after 09. Prior to the finals he was taking big pack marks and had decent pace over the turf. Not electric pace but never caught with the pill. All while playing on the flank I'm told.

The HFF can be a graveyard if you're not a smart player and he clearly is so for mine Id like to see him spend his preseason with a focus on speed and agility training and make this spot his own again.

I read about Pendles working for years on his speed with only slight improvements each time but still enough to be an advantage. If he can do this while still running sub 10mins for 3kms there is to much upside imo to not give him another year at least