The "They're out here" Get Rid of the Zone Defence Thread

[sue 8,415]

There is no way to learn how to do it without trying.  By definition of 'learn' it is almost certain it will fail to work a lot of the time until it is learnt.  If it is the best way to produce a winning team, the only questions are will it ever work reliably with our players and can we bear the pain while they learn.   I'd prefer this uncertainty to hearing people grumbling about defensive game plans.

[mo64 5,209]

7 minutes ago, sue said:

There is no way to learn how to do it without trying.  By definition of 'learn' it is almost certain it will fail to work a lot of the time until it is learnt.  If it is the best way to produce a winning team, the only questions are will it ever work reliably with our players and can we bear the pain while they learn.   I'd prefer this uncertainty to hearing people grumbling about defensive game plans.

I've heard former coaches say that if a new gameplan takes longer than a preseason to "learn", then there's something wrong with it. The logic being that you devise a gameplan around structures, not personnel. Personnel can change rapidly depending on injuries, suspensions, player turnover. If the new gameplan is that complex, every new arrival at the club would find it difficult to adapt. The team would become a never ending circle of mediocrity.

Roos statement that it took him 2 years to teach the players the defensive side of AFL, is just BS. With the player turnover under Roos' reign, does that mean that all the players acquired in the past 12/24 months are stilling learning the defensive side in addition to the new gameplan?

Beveridge and Bolton are testimony that a new gameplan can be taught in 1 preseason.

 

[Wiseblood 24,636]

Just now, mo64 said:

I've heard former coaches say that if a new gameplan takes longer than a preseason to "learn", then there's something wrong with it. The logic being that you devise a gameplan around structures, not personnel. Personnel can change rapidly depending on injuries, suspensions, player turnover. If the new gameplan is that complex, every new arrival at the club would find it difficult to adapt. The team would become a never ending circle of mediocrity.

Roos statement that it took him 2 years to teach the players the defensive side of AFL, is just BS. With the player turnover under Roos' reign, does that mean that all the players acquired in the past 12/24 months are stilling learning the defensive side in addition to the new gameplan?

Beveridge and Bolton are testimony that a new gameplan can be taught in 1 preseason.

 

Let's see if their gameplans have any longevity before we start potting ours and praising others.  Roos has said from the start that they wanted to build a structure, gameplan and culture for the long term future.  

If Carlton are a finals side and dominating in 2 years time then I'll happily stand corrected, but let's not get carried away in professing that Bolton is the messiah after just 10 rounds.

[mo64 5,209]

4 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Let's see if their gameplans have any longevity before we start potting ours and praising others.  Roos has said from the start that they wanted to build a structure, gameplan and culture for the long term future.  

If Carlton are a finals side and dominating in 2 years time then I'll happily stand corrected, but let's not get carried away in professing that Bolton is the messiah after just 10 rounds.

Hang on, Carlton still have to build their talent base before you can expect them to be a dominant finals team. Also, their top 5 recruits this year have had injury setbacks. Even when they lost their first 4 games this year, you could see the difference that Bolton had made. At least they turn up to play every week, which is a good sign of cultural change. Roos makes excuses every fortnight. Where's the cultural change?

You're giving Bolton only 2 years, so how long does an experienced coach on $1m a year get?

[sue 8,415]

Doubtless you can teach a new game plan in a few weeks, but to see what happens to the players trying to implement it when they are up against real competition, particularly from more experienced older players, is an entirely different thing.

[Chris 2,892]

56 minutes ago, mo64 said:

I've heard former coaches say that if a new gameplan takes longer than a preseason to "learn", then there's something wrong with it. The logic being that you devise a gameplan around structures, not personnel. Personnel can change rapidly depending on injuries, suspensions, player turnover. If the new gameplan is that complex, every new arrival at the club would find it difficult to adapt. The team would become a never ending circle of mediocrity.

Roos statement that it took him 2 years to teach the players the defensive side of AFL, is just BS. With the player turnover under Roos' reign, does that mean that all the players acquired in the past 12/24 months are stilling learning the defensive side in addition to the new gameplan?

Beveridge and Bolton are testimony that a new gameplan can be taught in 1 preseason.

 

Roos was teaching the players what it takes at AFL standard. All the talk of defensive game plans was not really a game plan but making it clear in expectation of the players that they needed to do the defensive actions, 1 percenters if you like, before it is even worth trying to teach a real game plan. Roos is fixing a culture that sucked.

Beveridge picked up a team that had been developed for a few years by Macca, Beveridge is not the sole reason for the dogs rise. What Macca brings is all about that initial learning (that our senior players didn't have) and sets standards, Beveridge bought the game plan. To a large extent Bolton is getting the same from a team that made finals not too long ago.

I think people forget how far back we were, we weren't AFL standard, we were a VFL standard side in every sense of the word. That takes time to fix. 

[hemingway 7,589]

29 minutes ago, Chris said:

Roos was teaching the players what it takes at AFL standard. All the talk of defensive game plans was not really a game plan but making it clear in expectation of the players that they needed to do the defensive actions, 1 percenters if you like, before it is even worth trying to teach a real game plan. Roos is fixing a culture that sucked.

Beveridge picked up a team that had been developed for a few years by Macca, Beveridge is not the sole reason for the dogs rise. What Macca brings is all about that initial learning (that our senior players didn't have) and sets standards, Beveridge bought the game plan. To a large extent Bolton is getting the same from a team that made finals not too long ago.

I think people forget how far back we were, we weren't AFL standard, we were a VFL standard side in every sense of the word. That takes time to fix. 

Chris I like your opinions but many supporters including me are losing patience. As a club we do not have the luxury of time beyond this season. We will see what happens when we meet some of the big boys starting this weekend. I am encouraged by our development in so many ways but our defense has been awful all season. I am concerned that our players down back simply don't have the skills including the ability to read the game to implement the current game plan. 

[John Crow Batty 8,231]

31 minutes ago, hemingway said:

Chris I like your opinions but many supporters including me are losing patience. As a club we do not have the luxury of time beyond this season. We will see what happens when we meet some of the big boys starting this weekend. I am encouraged by our development in so many ways but our defense has been awful all season. I am concerned that our players down back simply don't have the skills including the ability to read the game to implement the current game plan. 

Not just the defence but lack of support from the midfield and forwards to keep the ball from getting back too easily.  

 

[P-man 13,155]

4 hours ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Hi

now that many of the newspapers have introduced paywalls I have become an avid reader of the online Australian edition of the Guardian. No paywall and unlimited access. Moreover it allows comments which frequently make for better reading than the articles.

Anyway today is one of the first opinion pieces I have seen on the MFC. Shows we are "making waves". It talks of our game plan amongst other things including the dreaded MFCSS

Here is the link if anyone is interested:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/may/30/fear-of-another-false-dawn-lingers-at-melbourne-after-demons-loss-in-alice

Got a chuckle out of Oliver "dodging tacklers like Neo dodging bullets in the Matrix".

[Chris 2,892]

1 hour ago, hemingway said:

Chris I like your opinions but many supporters including me are losing patience. As a club we do not have the luxury of time beyond this season. We will see what happens when we meet some of the big boys starting this weekend. I am encouraged by our development in so many ways but our defense has been awful all season. I am concerned that our players down back simply don't have the skills including the ability to read the game to implement the current game plan. 

I have the samme concerns but think we need to give more time for the consistency to come. Our best is good, with the consistency then we are good, that comes with age and experience. We are basically fielding the youngest and most inexperienced side every week and are puttiñg some very good performances, wait for the consistency and things will be OK. 

In terms of timeframes I think making the finals next year is a must. If we dont and then have an average start to 2018 then the pressure on Goodwin will be immense and we will potentially back to sqaure 1, which in our case may mean closing the doors. 

[hemingway 7,589]

1 hour ago, Chris said:

I have the samme concerns but think we need to give more time for the consistency to come. Our best is good, with the consistency then we are good, that comes with age and experience. We are basically fielding the youngest and most inexperienced side every week and are puttiñg some very good performances, wait for the consistency and things will be OK. 

In terms of timeframes I think making the finals next year is a must. If we dont and then have an average start to 2018 then the pressure on Goodwin will be immense and we will potentially back to sqaure 1, which in our case may mean closing the doors. 

Your reasoning is reassuring or at least a little reassuring mate. I hope I can manage my frustration without the medication and alcohol. 

[beelzebub 22,225]

6 hours ago, Chris said:

I have the samme concerns but think we need to give more time for the consistency to come. Our best is good, with the consistency then we are good, that comes with age and experience. We are basically fielding the youngest and most inexperienced side every week and are puttiñg some very good performances, wait for the consistency and things will be OK. 

In terms of timeframes I think making the finals next year is a must. If we dont and then have an average start to 2018 then the pressure on Goodwin will be immense and we will potentially back to sqaure 1, which in our case may mean closing the doors. 

Chris .. we don't have decent quantity of cattle down back. Perseverance with the current inept group is misconstrued. 

Not all down there are flawed but most are Asus any delusional notion on the part of the FD that we can implement the "PLAN"

[Clayton van Oliver 1,665]

17 hours ago, CityDee said:

It took a single preseason for carlton to get a solid defence up and running and three for us to get it wrong . 

It would be interesting to know what Carlton's list turn over during the last 3 years has been compared to ours. It seems more to me that the combination of culture change/build, list turn-over and game/player development that Roos and Co have had to undertake is different from any other team during that period, or arguably any period. 

We were a shambles. Not just our list, but the whole club to the very core. This season has shown that this has changed more than anything during the last ten seasons combined.

I think. It seems. Who knows? There's been more fun this year, and that's the actual point of footy.

[Coq au vin 754]

What happened to our defensive side of the past 2 years with all the tackling and low opposition scores?

[jackaub 1,402]

1 hour ago, Diamond said:

What happened to our defensive side of the past 2 years with all the tackling and low opposition scores?

Exactly

our defence has gone backwards and there is FA being said about it by the coach,we leaked like a sieve again on Saturday  and spent 3 quarters chasing tail and  it was appallling to watch. The game plan is not working, can we all agree to that?

[Cheap Seats 3,300]

6 minutes ago, jackaub said:

Exactly

our defence has gone backwards and there is FA being said about it by the coach,we leaked like a sieve again on Saturday  and spent 3 quarters chasing tail and  it was appallling to watch. The game plan is not working, can we all agree to that?

No

The gane plan itself and the application of it are 2 complete different things

Should have had u bkokes down at Geelong in 05. You would have sacked bomber and i wouldn't have to put up with my smug cata supporting mates.

My point is with a young list it's going to take time to gel. Find any amount of excuses u want but with our liat profile at the moment we are still in rebuild. We dont have to start again rebuild but develop what we have rebuild.

I'm hoping we csn bag a few more wins this year (another 4 or 5 at least) but this year is a work in progress IMO and from what I've seen on field 

[Coq au vin 754]

Yes but where's the defence gone?

[Cheap Seats 3,300]

In repect to prior years or the general application across games?

2016 is a new style. We dont play the dour 1 v 1 or flooding/rebound style like 14/15 anymore

[jackaub 1,402]

26 minutes ago, Unleash Hell said:

No

The gane plan itself and the application of it are 2 complete different things

Should have had u bkokes down at Geelong in 05. You would have sacked bomber and i wouldn't have to put up with my smug cata supporting mates.

My point is with a young list it's going to take time to gel. Find any amount of excuses u want but with our liat profile at the moment we are still in rebuild. We dont have to start again rebuild but develop what we have rebuild.

I'm hoping we csn bag a few more wins this year (another 4 or 5 at least) but this year is a work in progress IMO and from what I've seen on field 

The game plan looks like shite smells like shite is shite. The fact is our defence is worse now thats my point! Are you saying our defence is better?

[Cheap Seats 3,300]

Im no expert i am just trying to communicate what I've seen and heard. But we are playing a completely different style of game to prior years

The keys as i understand it to our defence are 

Pressure

Winning contested ball.

If we dont do that we lose. It shouldnt be an excuse but temas like port, dogs etc who bring pressure and excellent ball.movement are able to towel us up dur to our lack of ability to execute the game atyle for 4 qtrs

[Cheap Seats 3,300]

9 minutes ago, jackaub said:

The game plan looks like shite smells like shite is shite. The fact is our defence is worse now thats my point! Are you saying our defence is better?

No

I'm trying to paint a picture of what i belive the club is trying to do, and why they fail to execute from time to time

Can we even define what the defence is under the current system? I can guarentee it isnt what we did in 14/15 when Roos first started 

How does the MFC apply defensive pressure? I agree with you it was non existent against Port

Is the drop in defence due to fatigue in young players? Inexperience? Or is it due to a new game plan?

I thin it's a bit of all.of the above , especially in an 18 man press in a young side playing a new style 

Enjoy thengood and the bad. I belive this a new club and on the rise agin. Mistakes will be made but they wont be mortal

Edited May 30, 2016 by Unleash Hell

[Demon Dynasty 15,337]

16 hours ago, sue said:

Doubtless you can teach a new game plan in a few weeks, but to see what happens to the players trying to implement it when they are up against real competition, particularly from more experienced older players, is an entirely different thing.

So on that basis the Blues passed with flying colors (against the premiership favourites and a seasoned opposition) on Sunday yes?

[Demon Dynasty 15,337]

37 minutes ago, Diamond said:

Yes but where's the defence gone?

DIAMOND I thought you of all landers wld know all about this

[Demon Dynasty 15,337]

18 minutes ago, Unleash Hell said:

In respect to prior years itr the general application acro. ss games?

2016 is a new style. We dont play the dour 1 v 1 or flooding/rebound style like 14/15 anymore

I remember similar zoning/witches hat defencIve styles/horror results under MN and he was slammed for It and rightly so.

Similar results this time around yet some are arguing 'For' It to be given a fair go.

Any solid defensive style Is solid because It holds up well when It'ssupposed to Ie; under severe pressure. This one doesnt hold under any pressure!

DUMP THE DIAMOND AND START WINNING MORE GAMES!

[Coq au vin 754]

On 29 May 2016 at 11:06 AM, big_red_fire_engine said:

I know everyone says we need a plan B. How many sides in the AFL switch to or have a plan B? Maybe they have reactive tweak to an opposition plan ie: man up their 7th back but so much time is spent ingraining plan A and making it natural that switching it off is easier said than done. 

Our plan A relies on at a minimum halving the contest and creating good forward pressure. Both were down yesterday. I have no issue with the plan aside from a preference that we leave one man as an anchor back (preferably someone with some speed) to stop the easy 2-3 out the back goals we saw yesterday.  

Lots of teams have a plan B. They switch to a loose man in defence and man on man when they need to.