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If I remember correctly this same thing happened to Richmond twice in a season and thjey lost 2 close games. They were upfront and said it was their onfield leaders who did not initiate the required on field instructuions and motivation.

Sorry to say it, but our on field leadership group failed a big test today. No runner is needed when only 1 goal is scored in a quarter and it is late in a game. Ultimately, Jonesy has to wear it but I also place a fair bit of responsibililty on the shoulders of Cross and Lamumba who have demionstrated outstanding onfield leadership ability in the past but were part of the failure yesterday.

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Gullible?

This whole "they didn't know how much time was left" is just some spin cooked up to protect the players. Roos didn't even mention it in the press conference, even though he was specifically asked about the final moments. It's something that came out later on.

It saves people asking why Nathan Jones wasn't in the centre for that last ballup, or why the leaders (cough cough) didn't organise the players to get behind the ball etc. etc.

Roos (and the club) is just covering for his team - well, in public anyway, but the players know that they stuffed up.

Everyone knew how much time was left, including the players on the field - it's partly why there was so much celebrating after Howe's goal - with under a minute to go, they thought they'd won it. Roos was screaming into the phone to get them back ... even if the runner wasn't around, the bench was close enough to communicate with the players onfield.

Hard lesson, but the players won't let that happen again. Hopefully.

I genuinely believe Bernie Vince when he said he thought they had more time. He could have just said we didn't man up or get numbers back and that would be the end of it. He didn't look impressed either when interviewed. Just one player but still.

This notion that Roosy took one for the team to protect them only reinforces how soft they are if anything. After he had a chance to speak with some of these guys he may have realised the stuff up. Unfortunately [censored] happens.

Mind you the fact that we lost the final centre bounce is on the players regardless of their time perception.

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Said this on the other thread.

Hard for Roos to get any message down and enacted upon even with 5 mins to go in the last qtr. My question is, should he have been down on the bench running the show in that last 5 mins rather than in the box dealing with it via phone. I remember thinking this same thing when scores were level with 9 mins to go - Roosy should be on the boundary line directing traffic. With little time left, it's clear that giving direct orders to runners and players as they come on and off the bench was the better option.

Having said that, it's amazing that the senior players such as NJones, Dunn, Cross, Lumumba and Vince weren't screaming at the forwards to get back after Howe's goal. Football 101.

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I said it on the other thread, but the security guards come in and circle the ground with five minutes to go. There is no excuse for the players not having some idea of how much time is remaining.

The other side of the question, which doesn't seem to have been asked anywhere, is: Why change from flooding the backline, when we'd been doing that for the whole quarter up to the last 41 seconds?

You could (almost) understand them playing 6-6-6 if that's what they'd been doing up to then, but they actually changed to go back to 6-6-6.

When Howe took the mark, surely most of the forwards were standing in defence. So why did they run back to the forward line, instead of just staying where they were?

In other words, it can't have been that they didn't have time to reposition themselves for a flood. They were already in "flood" positions, and all they had to do was stay where they were.

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Not sure that saying it was the players fault or coaches fault helps much. The reality is we are a long way off as a football team. All the same problems are there as have been in the past. Poor skills, poor decision making, too many turnovers, lack of 4Q effort/consistency, lack of two way running. We rely on the same players week in week out to rack up possessions. We cant blame injuries as every team has to cover injuries over the season. Sure we can see improvement in some areas and we have some good young kids. The kids are the only thing that raises my mood level above suicidal. They do give hope. However, as a TEAM we are way off. If we were improving as a team, we should have been able to clean up the Saints. They are fair to ordinary at best. The reality is that other teams (excluding Carlton and Brisbane) are improving and in most cases at a faster rate that us. The only reason I go to the football is to watch the young kids. We do have some young stars and potential stars that we have not had for a long time. We can only hope we can pick up more talent in the draft and the trading period. We need real pressure on places. We have not had that for a long time. Many of our players get games too easily and I suspect that breeds complacency and bad habits. Anyway, like most of you, I live in hope. I just hope I live long enough to be proud of my football team.

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Kudos to Roos for not using it as an excuse, but we saw the eventual result of reducing the no. of runners, discussed in preseason.

The teams with better experience, a better ability to recognise game situations and better communication have a greater advantage without the 2nd runner. Without having it conclusively confirmed, I believe this was a reason why Geelong had Nigel Lappin conspicuously in close around stoppages far too often - they are one of the teams to benefit the most from such a rule change.

We were caught unaware of the time left on the clock, and with the runner caught out on the field still delivering an old message.

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Surprised by some of the comments here. It's obvious the players knew how much time was left but stuffed up, and that Roos (and Vince) is protecting them.

They thought that with only 40 second to go, they had it won. Too busy celebrating after Howe's goal, instead of putting it to one side and focusing on the job at hand.

Reminds me of the scenario in the third quarter, where Tom MacD lost a mark/gave away a free. While Tommy was remonstrating with the umpire, his opponent simply took off unhindered towards goal, with predictable results.

I don't actually blame the players, they've had such a rough time, and wins have been hard to come by. But it's the difference between a team like a Hawthorn and a team like ours.

We need to harden up mentally.

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We need to harden up mentally.

Of course we do and I assume you mean supporters as well as players. I'm willing to bet that if Max Gawn's tap had ended up in a scrimmage with time running out before the ball got to the St. Kilda end, most of us would be celebrating the victory and few would have been critical as many are at the moment. Yes, it was a monumental stuff up and showed up a lack of organisation from the coaches and the team leaders but it was one (albeit important) passage of play in 100 minutes and I take a different view of the game which was one we would possibly have won with some more experienced players on the ground. Leaving aside the injured, we could have had Matt Jones, Rohan Bail and the Russian in the 22 instead of ANB, Billy and Max and we might have plucked the game out of the fire.

But from a long term perspective, the decision to go with the younger players will pay its dividends well in the future.

Despite the length of time we have suffered, we need to understand that a bit more short term pain will be offset by long term gain.

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Leaving aside the injured, we could have had Matt Jones, Rohan Bail and the Russian in the 22 instead of ANB, Billy and Max and we might have plucked the game out of the fire.

But from a long term perspective, the decision to go with the younger players will pay its dividends well in the future.

Despite the length of time we have suffered, we need to understand that a bit more short term pain will be offset by long term gain.

Agree on ANB and Billy but Max's current output is already better than the Russian's output earlier in the year, and he should only get better.

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I have no doubt that errors in match day coaching, firstly in allowing Oxley to be the loose man for so long, and not getting instructions out to defend our lead and get numbers back yesterday had a hand in both losses.

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We spent 8 seconds celebrating Howe's goal, instead of perhaps running back, glancing at the bench (for time remaining) and setting up.

Roos knew exactly what to do. Read his lips at the 41 second mark; he knew exactly what to do. This is not about match day coaching; although TGR would have tried to get Garlett in the game a bit more.

This is more an indictment on Jones, Lumumba, Vince, Crossy (who did peel back), our mids (who left St.Kilda a whole quadrant and a half and allow Jack Steven a free run and 2 possessions in the chain), and other leaders. Watts does a hell of a lot of thinking throughout the match, implementing the game plan...and structures at each stoppage, but could have been pointing and instructing as soon as Howe's goal was going through.

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I think Garland would have been one to switch on and tell blokes to get back.

I truly think the players were unaware of the situation they were in, but even if they had, many would have struggled with knowing what to do.

It's worth remembering how much relative inexperience was in that 22.

Hogan, Brayshaw, ANB, Stretch, Toumpas, Michie, Riley.

As mentioned directly above, Watts could have been directing traffic, but this is sadly very unfamiliar territory for many of our players.

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Well Bing The coach thinks they lost because of the coach. How do you like them apples?

Again.....what is said publicly is not necessarily what's said behind closed doors.

I ain't got no bananas, therefore I must have some bananas.

Edited by Al's Demons
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But from a long term perspective, the decision to go with the younger players will pay its dividends well in the future.

Despite the length of time we have suffered, we need to understand that a bit more short term pain will be offset by long term gain.

This is short term?

Im 59.

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Nobody on the bench must have known the time either, which I find astounding. If they did, 1 of 2 things would have happened, which may have saved the game.

1. The player who came on after Howe's goal could have instructed to get everybody back, instead they plunked themselves down on a half back flank, and told whoever was there to push up to the wing

2. Everyone on the bench could have done what I was doing, and screamed and got the big arm wave going to try and catch somebodies attention to make the necessary changes

No single person is to blame, but all it could have taken was one player being aware, grabbing the moment, showing some leadership, directing the traffic, and we were home.

Edited by Forest Demon
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I think Garland would have been one to switch on and tell blokes to get back.

I truly think the players were unaware of the situation they were in, but even if they had, many would have struggled with knowing what to do.

It's worth remembering how much relative inexperience was in that 22.

Hogan, Brayshaw, ANB, Stretch, Toumpas, Michie, Riley.

As mentioned directly above, Watts could have been directing traffic, but this is sadly very unfamiliar territory for many of our players.

Except that it's up to the guys in the leadership group - or for that matter, those on the Demonland banner - to be directing traffic. None of them are Watts, and it's bizarre for one of Watts' more persistent detractors to suggest that he should be the one to show leadership. And Watts wasn't in for the centre bounce anyway - it was Viney, Vince & I think Tyson. That's three of our top four mids, but unfortunately Viney & Vince both had to focus on their direct opponents.

Now if only Jones had gone to the defensive side of the square instead of wandering over to HFF. And you're probably right about Garland - he's probably the most likely to think, "Now what could possibly go wrong here?"

The plain fact is that at the time of the centre bounce, none of them could foresee how it was going to unfold.

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Nobody on the bench must have known the time either, which I find astounding. If they did, 1 of 2 things would have happened, which may have saved the game.

1. The player who came on after Howe's goal could have instructed to get everybody back, instead they plunked themselves down on a half back flank, and told whoever was there to push up to the wing

2. Everyone on the bench could have done what I was doing, and screamed and got the big arm wave going to try and catch somebodies attention to make the necessary changes

No single person is to blame, but all it could have taken was one player being aware, grabbing the moment, showing some leadership, directing the traffic, and we were home.

That was Cross, after Roos had been bellowing into the phone to the bench to 'get them back'.

Either the bench didn't tell Cross (a sackable offence).

Or Cross ignored bench/coach instructions (a retireable offence?)

On 360 last night Roos was asked if Cross knew.

Roos waited about 3 secs and eventually said: 'you have to ask Crossy'.

Roos could have said: 'I haven't asked him yet' or 'we review the game tomorrow' on any other 'fluff' comment.

Cross knew!!

Unbelievably disappointing in a senior player who has played finals!

What happened next was a calamity of missteps by 5 dees players lacking any sort of desperation.

Unbelievably heartbreaking!

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It was also pointed out that N Jones remained in the forward line and did not go in to contest the centre bounce. On top of that, Max Gawn, who had played well all day, rather than stifle the ruck contest, decided to flick it back. It was a combination of a number of poor decisions made on the field, in the heat of battle. The worst of these was not to protect the corridor and be goal side of the opponent. Jimmy Toumpas knew it, especially as it was his man who kicked the goal. In this case, there is no way you can blame Roos.

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It was also pointed out that N Jones remained in the forward line and did not go in to contest the centre bounce. On top of that, Max Gawn, who had played well all day, rather than stifle the ruck contest, decided to flick it back. It was a combination of a number of poor decisions made on the field, in the heat of battle. The worst of these was not to protect the corridor and be goal side of the opponent. Jimmy Toumpas knew it, especially as it was his man who kicked the goal. In this case, there is no way you can blame Roos.

Not sure this was the worst Iva.

Toumpas was running with Montagna but he had to leave him to tackle Lonie (who Cross was supposed to be on).

Steven ran fast to the flank but his opponent, Viney didn't go with him, he just jogged forward but went to neither Lonie or Montagna to help Toumpas.

As I said in post above that there were 5/6 players who 'misstepped', without any sign of desperation...Toumpas tried but he received no back up. A lot of players at fault but Toumpas was low on that list.

Edited by Lucifer's Hero
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