Melbourne biggest issue (from an outsider)

[DemonFrog 1,347]

Our supporters are our biggest issue?!

Wait until I find out which one of you supporters have been drafting MFC players for the last eight years.

And who was the supporter that recruited Mark Neelds and his pack of merry men?

[Adzman 2,085]

The supporters are the only thing right about this club. Have the best fan to member ratio in the AFL, and have been loyal to a fault for many years when the club has been god awful.

Sharing this misery with the great demons fans is what keeps me going.

[Melb16 458]

So we're too accepting?

Tell your brother to have a read of Demonland. We've delisted the entire list at half time every week on here.

[Biffen 12,298]

So we're too accepting?

Tell your brother to have a read of Demonland. We've delisted the entire list at half time every week on here.

Must explain why we always seem to be outnumbered in the second half.

[Macca 16,173]

Maybe because betting is illegal over there (except Vegas)? It is pretty strange the moral outrage you get here, especially when many teams have done the exact same thing. Collingwood, Freo and WCE were doing it at the turn of the century (Coll 99, Freo 98?, WCE 2001) there was discussion around it for 2 or 3 years when Carlton were racking up picks ending in the Kreuzer Cup - I maintain it's not how "good" or "bad" necessarily but how many friends you have in the media and in the halls of the AFL Exec/Commission (*cough* Fitzpatrick *cough*) which determines the spotlight. Carlton has already been done for salary cap and that set them back 10 years they couldn't go after them for tanking as well it was costing the league money having one of their "big 4" clubs anchored to the bottom not to mention a former Premiership Captain heading up the Commission.

Where are our friends in the AFL? Until Demetriou agreed to bail us out after the Debt Demolition they couldn't have given a stuff if we died or relocated and no one in the media (even our good mate Mike Sheahan) batted an eyelid. He probably would have helped us on our way if it meant he was one of the privileged few just like he did with Fitzroy. Robbo (for all his stupidity and yobbo/bogan character) stood up to Demetriou and see what happened with him. They were threatening legal action and he had his "access" revoked until Demetriou needed him to run some feel good stories on his farewell lap before retirement.

Good point and I should have included that in my timeline. To me, it was a combination of a number of factors which created a perfect storm. Another thing to consider is if we were just 1 or 2 wins better off late in 2011, things might have turned out a lot differently.

[fired up 77]

They were probably clapping because Melbourne finally had a goal assist stat.

[monoccular 15,991]

Here we go again.

Yeah, we are weak because we are not as feral as Tiger or Blues supporters?

Dees supporters are pretty bloody strong in my opinion. Weak isn't a word I would use to describe the resilient people that still support this team.

Agree totally. IF we were weak supporters, there would be none of us left.

[Guest]

Just on the Hawks, Tigers and Dogs of '04

Tigers were 4/4 after 8 rounds and then proceeded to lose their last 14 games - Deledio (priority pick)

The Doggies won only 1 of their last 10 games to finish on 5 wins - Cooney (priority pick)

The Hawks only won 2 of their last 14 games (those wins were coincidentally against the Tigers & Dogs) Hawthorn finished on 4 wins and picked up Roughy & Buddy.

It looked sus at the time and it still looks sus, 10 years later - and that's just one year.

Of course, all 3 teams might have just been poor teams and it's all just a coincidence that all 3 "lucked out" and received priority picks.

If that's the case, are we then allowed to say the same about our team of '09?

2004 AFL season

You've got your years mixed up Macca. Cooney's first year for the Dogs was in 2004, meaning that he was picked in the 2003 draft (where he was selected number one). From memory, Terry Wallace had just walked out and the job was given to a solid assistant, but no senior coach, Peter Rohde.

Deledio was number one pick in the 2004 draft and played his first year in 2005.

I still challenge the Hawthorn situation. I do not believe that they started the year with a clear objective to fail. I believe that's what distinguishes us with them in that we set out from moment dot of 2009 to win only four games.

Anyway, we are getting way off topic. I still reckon that carrying on like those peanuts did in 2009 says a lot about what is wrong with us as a club (when contrasted with what has happened in 2013 when we lose and the supporters turn feral but not according to Choke's brother!). As I said before, look at the people in the 'finish bottom' thread and it's like those years never existed. Also add in 'I don't care about beating the Giants and Lions, I will get excited when we beat the Hawks and Roos' talk of that thread and you should see what I mean.

[Guest]

lol, i suspect the privileged (real or perceived) elitist class of williamstown will be one of the first to be smitten, followed shortly by fitzroy and carltown

"beware the false prophets which come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravening wolves"

Nup, I am going to smite Fitzroy because it's full of hipsters with bushranger beards and low rider bikes.

[Macca 16,173]

You've got your years mixed up Macca. Cooney's first year for the Dogs was in 2004, meaning that he was picked in the 2003 draft (where he was selected number one). From memory, Terry Wallace had just walked out and the job was given to a solid assistant, but no senior coach, Peter Rohde.

Deledio was number one pick in the 2004 draft and played his first year in 2005.

I still challenge the Hawthorn situation. I do not believe that they started the year with a clear objective to fail. I believe that's what distinguishes us with them in that we set out from moment dot of 2009 to win only four games.

Anyway, we are getting way off topic. I still reckon that carrying on like those peanuts did in 2009 says a lot about what is wrong with us as a club (when contrasted with what has happened in 2013 when we lose and the supporters turn feral but not according to Choke's brother!). As I said before, look at the people in the 'finish bottom' thread and it's like those years never existed. Also add in 'I don't care about beating the Giants and Lions, I will get excited when we beat the Hawks and Roos' talk of that thread and you should see what I mean.

Agree with you somewhat on the bit I've highlighted but as for the rest of it ...

My bad - on Cooney ... Should have been Griffen and apart from that bit, my post stands. 3 teams tanked in 2004 and in the 2004 Draft that followed, all 3 teams got their A graders. Roughy, Buddy, Griffen and Deledio amongst them.

I can't believe that most people wouldn't recognise that tanking was a widespread problem. Why did the AFL change the rules on the PP then? There seems to be an element here who mistakenly think that we're the only team that tanked. Or ... they want to vent their spleen because we supposedly did it badly. I believe there is a logical answer to why we were investigated and I've given my view on that previously in this thread

What about the Pies of 2005? Sat on 5 wins for the last 8 games of the season - Thomas & Pendlebury were the prized selections in that bounty. I could give you at least another 15 examples like that in any number of years but you know what they say ... "There's no such thing as a coincidence" The pattern of tanking is there if you look hard enough.

You mentioned Rhode taking over but what about Ratten taking over in '07 at the Blues. If you don't believe that the Blues tanked in 2007 then I give up. They lost their last 11 games including the infamous "Kreuzer cup" ... in my opinion, that was their 5th year out of a 6 year period that they tanked the last half the season.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Macca

[ijbfossil 77]

Melbourne supporters who are still turning up to the games are just incredibly loyal - so any criticism of them is pathetic.

It was awful seeing the faces of those in red and blue on the train going home after the GWS game - but I bet they are back next year because they obviously do bleed red and blue.

They deserve so much better.

[Guest]

Agree with you somewhat on the bit I've highlighted but as for the rest of it ...

My bad - on Cooney ... Should have been Griffen and apart from that bit, my post stands. 3 teams tanked in 2004 and in the 2004 Draft that followed, all 3 teams got their A graders. Roughy, Buddy, Griffen and Deledio amongst them.

I can't believe that most people wouldn't recognise that tanking was a widespread problem. Why did the AFL change the rules on the PP then? There seems to be an element here who mistakenly think that we're the only team that tanked. Or ... they want to vent their spleen because we supposedly did it badly. I believe there is a logical answer to why we were investigated and I've given my view on that previously in this thread

What about the Pies of 2005? Sat on 5 wins for the last 8 games of the season - Thomas & Pendlebury were the prized selections in that bounty. I could give you at least another 15 examples like that in any number of years but you know what they say ... "There's no such thing as a coincidence" The pattern of tanking is there if you look hard enough.

You mentioned Rhode taking over but what about Ratten taking over in '07 at the Blues. If you don't believe that the Blues tanked in 2007 then I give up. They lost their last 11 games including the infamous "Kreuzer cup" ... in my opinion, that was their 5th year out of a 6 year period that they tanked the last half the season.

Ultimately, I think we are getting issues mixed up here and supporter bases and club administrations mixed up which is resulting in us getting off topic.

Firstly though, I don't deal in Nick Naylor (of 'Thank You For Smoking' fame) logic (paraphrased): We were wrong but they were also wrong so that makes us right. Even with what we now know, this moral relevancy spiel is the line that gets trotted out when it comes to this issue.

I must say one thing though. The stuff on Rohde (and Schwab) seems counter intuitive. If the Doggies were going to actively take a dive, why did they sack Rohde immediately at the end of the season? Surely, it wouldn't have been his fault if they were terrible as that was clearly the result they were trying to manufacture.

The same goes for Peter Schwab. I will repeat that the expectations going into 2004 with Hawthorn did not concern rebuilding. They thought their premiership window was open. When they were proven horribly wrong midway through the year, they began a total rebuild of the club to what we see today. Jason Dunstall became temporary CEO to oversee a full rebuild of the football department (plus he was big on getting Clarko to the club). Also in Hawthorn's case, if there were a season wide conspiracy to engineer results (which I think was more the sticking point with Melbourne), why did they start the year with such high expectations only to sack the coach?

I don't ever believe, nor have I said, that we weren't the only ones to tank. However, I do believe we were some of the most brazen and the attitude of 'poor, victimized Melbourne' is counter productive. My belief is we set out at the start of 2009 to engineer a result. If we rested players at the end of the year when the season was shot to bits then fair enough. However, it was more blatant than that. If we can't see that we did something morally repugnant, then we will never move forward. Roos has pretty much put it out there.

I would also put forth Sydney and Geelong as examples of not tanking and reaping the benefits. The last time Sydney got a number one draft pick was Darren Gaspar in 1994 and Geelong's last number one pick was Stephen Hooper in 1990. Even when Geelong was a shambles in 2003 (probably bought there by band aid recruiting of blokes like Mitchell White and Justin Murphy), they never let the bottom drop out of the place entirely. They stuck to their guns and developed what they had. Keep in mind that Paul Chapman, Corey Enright and Stevie J were all picked outside the top ten. Most of their top ten draft picks ranged from picks 6 to 10. To get access to these kinds of players, you need not proceed to embarrass the game of football. (To be fair they did get two pretty handy father-son selections!)

As I said in that last reply, we are way off topic here. It's not a case of 'why tanking was a good idea' which it clearly wasn't and history will support me in that analysis in regards to the MFC. The topic was the biggest issue with the MFC is the supporters. I bought up the issue of those blokes singing Tigerland back in 2009 and the current posts in the 'bottom of the ladder' thread

Edited August 25, 2014 by Colin B. Flaubert

[dee-luded 2,958]

I watched the GWS with my brother, a north supporter, last week.

At one point we saw a Melbourne player in the back line kick the ball directly to Hoskin-Elliot, who just turned around and kicked an easy goal.

He said "right there is your biggest problem."

I said "what, turnovers?"

He said "no, your supporters' REACTION to turnovers and lack of understanding of how bad you are."

He then rewound the footage and paused just after the footy went through the sticks. There were a few MFC supports sitting there applauding.

He went on to say that any supporter can and probably should applaud an opposition goal when it shows guts or skill etc. However when it's an easy goal as a result of a direct turnover, fans shouldn't be sitting there saying "well done". They should be outraged. They should be baying for blood. There was no skill in what Hoskin-Elliot did. That was an own goal.

The implication was that the lack of passion from fans, combined with misunderstandings and tolerance of our glaring flaws means that we don't hold the players accountable.

I thought the fans at the end of that game telling the players exactly what we thought of him undermined this point, but that image of those MFC people applauding that goal has stuck with me.

Maybe there's some truth to what he's saying and I don't want to admit it.

Are we just weak supporters?

I've been trying to say this for a number of years. our players are treated like Gods off the field by those who they rub elbow patches with. those people don't care if they are like GAblettJnr, or pushup King. just that they can rub shoulders with an AFL player & TV personality.

Our culture is WEAK. especially because of these wrong messages. people backslapping them & laughing with them when we need kids with dirty hands coming up to them looking up to them & saying please Mr Toumpas,,, when will we start to win games... hi Mr Grimes please can we win this week ?

our players are kept looking up to others with business success or career success, so the players start to dream of that success instead of getting blood & guts on they're jumpers going about a games duty.

... they stay a sort of Peter Pan

.... we need our boys players regularly in contact with our poorest supporters, who just wish them to win & play hard & applaud them getting blood & mud on they're jumper in they're efforts trying to Win.

most of our former (feral type) supporters of the 60's - 80's are now gone, & their family's will be singing another clubs song... and we die slowly every year in they're absence.

Edited August 25, 2014 by dee-luded

[Macca 16,173]

Colin

We're not on the same page on this issue.

We both have a different view about tanking re whether it's the right thing to do or not and ... then there's our opinion on how many times tanking has happened and by which teams.

To save going back and forth needlessly, let's agree to disagree. We've both made our points.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Macca

[dee-luded 2,958]

Agree totally. IF we were weak supporters, there would be none of us left.

not weak supporters soft supporters. soft hearted supporters.

[dee-luded 2,958]

The supporters are the only thing right about this club. Have the best fan to member ratio in the AFL, and have been loyal to a fault for many years when the club has been god awful.

Sharing this misery with the great demons fans is what keeps me going.

the best fan to member ratio; this is the type apologist exercise that keeps us weak & keeps us exclusive.

maybe just maybe we have a strong far to memeber ratio because oall the poor fans we once had have left for not being able to have contact with their Idols.

so only the well off are left over,,, to become members. there is your ratio.... weak support numbers is the reason.

[Guest]

That bridge was also crossed a long time ago.

Personally I think it's time we turned on the mascot. Get the auskickers off and bring on the halftime mascot beatdown.

It will be cathartic for many Demonlanders as well as they will be finally able to square up with Saty.

[Satyriconhome 9,982]

It will be cathartic for many Demonlanders as well as they will be finally able to square up with Saty.

.....you really do have an issue, do you mention my name in your group therapy sessions as well?.......who needs enemies when we have 'supporters' like you, not watched any games lately?

[dee-luded 2,958]

I watched the GWS with my brother, a north supporter, last week.

At one point we saw a Melbourne player in the back line kick the ball directly to Hoskin-Elliot, who just turned around and kicked an easy goal.

He said "right there is your biggest problem."

I said "what, turnovers?"

He said "no, your supporters' REACTION to turnovers and lack of understanding of how bad you are."

He then rewound the footage and paused just after the footy went through the sticks. There were a few MFC supports sitting there applauding.

He went on to say that any supporter can and probably should applaud an opposition goal when it shows guts or skill etc. However when it's an easy goal as a result of a direct turnover, fans shouldn't be sitting there saying "well done". They should be outraged. They should be baying for blood. There was no skill in what Hoskin-Elliot did. That was an own goal.

The implication was that the lack of passion from fans, combined with misunderstandings and tolerance of our glaring flaws means that we don't hold the players accountable.

I thought the fans at the end of that game telling the players exactly what we thought of him undermined this point, but that image of those MFC people applauding that goal has stuck with me.

Maybe there's some truth to what he's saying and I don't want to admit it.

Are we just weak supporters?

I agree with you choke, & I agree with your friend.

But to our few supporters left; they are all of the same mind, because all the others of a different view left Us long ago.... we are in an inbred state of mind, & in decline.

just like the ronan empoire

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

I agree with you choke, & I agree with your friend.

But to our few supporters left; they are all of the same mind, because all the others of a different view left Us long ago.... we are in an inbred state of mind, & in decline.

just like the ronan empoire

Actually I disagree with what he said. It was just the image of those applauding fans that gave me pause. Seemed to reinforce his point.

[dee-luded 2,958]

Actually I disagree with what he said. It was just the image of those applauding fans that gave me pause. Seemed to reinforce his point.

OK, all right I'm in agreement with your friend. & am happy to tote the line till the cows walk home for milking.

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

Your bother sounds like a typical North [censored] trying to pot our supporters. If I am not mistaken our players were booed off. Hardly applauded, we may have been guilty of being content with mediocrity in the past but I think fans are disgruntled and disgusted by the skills displayed by our players

[Guest]

.....you really do have an issue, do you mention my name in your group therapy sessions as well?.......who needs enemies when we have 'supporters' like you, not watched any games lately?

I do it because of your predictability and I appreciate the comedy you bring to each thread.

I actually consider myself as an enemy of the Melbourne Football Club. I believe PJ is producing one of those 'Wanted: Dead or Alive' posters with my Demonland avatar on it for mass distribution.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Colin B. Flaubert

[defuture15 836]

I agree with you choke, & I agree with your friend.

But to our few supporters left; they are all of the same mind, because all the others of a different view left Us long ago.... we are in an inbred state of mind, & in decline.

just like the ronan empoire

Sounds like bullsh@t to me.

If I was weak or soft I would have given up in the early 80's

I think that you are confusing club and team culture with supporter/member views from the outside

I am not a stereotypical melbourne supporter "go number 9" and that cr@p

I am a man who is loyal to a club. That does not mean that I accept mediocrity

You may choose to call that stupid rather than soft hearted.

Im certainly not inbred or in decline

[Kiss of Death 708]

List Management only became tanking around the time that the really big bucks started rolling in the door from footy betting.

I still think it's disgraceful that booking players in for season ending surgery, so that they will have a clean pre-season the next year, and trialling a few players in unexpected positions to see if they're worth keeping around can be considered cheating and against the spirit of the game.

It's a professional era. Argh.

Also, it's refreshing to see a Norf supporter whinging about something other than how nobody pays attention to their club/umpires are unfair/boomer tripped over the goalpost, report it/whatever.

If the boys give up a goal, you will see me there, dead silent, unless an umpire made a wrong call, now that's a different story.