Intraclub Practice Match - Thursday 20th February, 2014

[DeeSpencer 25,687]

By the way possibly the best look on track today was Todd Viney. He looks to have lost about 2 stone. Was looking good.

[Dees2014 2,377]

By the way I don't neccessarily agree on this notion of needing a 200cm defender for new age forwards. I think McDonald and Fralwey are big enough.

But with the way he moves and kicks the ball plus a natural overhead ability we should seriously consider Max King as a backman.

12 months as a defender never hurt anyone plus he can build endurance that way.

Poor Kingy got smashed in the ruck by guys with height and significant weight on him but still impressed around the ground with some nice marks and a lovely weighted kick to a leading forward.

Yes it was interesting that the powers that be chose to play spencer and Gawn in the same side against King. Perhaps they had planned Jamar in the same side as king, but you would have thought there would have been a change at the last minute, king still impresses inspite of his age and maturity. A great pick up in the longer term IMO.

[Bitter but optimistic 22,239]

Spencer ruck is fine, He's got a bit edge in fitness and match play practice heading in to round 1. 2 decent games against Geelong and Hawthorn and the spot is his. Clark will almost certainly miss. Dawes as the lead up CHF yep. Hogan as a roaming forward wherever he needs to be. But no point playing Fitzy AND Gawn. It will be talls tripping over each other and no defensive pressure.

If Dawes and Hogan make it to round 1 fit and showing enough form then I think we chose between Gawn and Fitzy for that remaining spot. I think they know it as well and were both keen to put their best foot forward today. I expect in Alice they'll both play majority forward and spell Spencer at various times and have a nice competition. Rhys Stanley is likely to be the saints second ruckman. Which means if we play Gawn we get an edge in ruck ability but also means we can play Fitzy and not be concerned that he'd get monstered in their by a team with 2 strong rucks.

Fair points Master but I didn't envisage them all on at once. Also Fitzy has a mobility upside in that I reckon he could go back or play like a "wing" or receiving mid. Anyway it's February after all and anything is possible.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Bitter but optimistic

[DeeSpencer 25,687]

I know, but he's not experienced playing at this level, so we don't want to hurt his 'footy confidence', at this point IMO. If the supply is 'so-so', as the team adjusts to SO many new players.

Once the backhalf is settled & pumping the ball out, & the Mids are spreading to create; then it'll be time I think.

I think Viney will struggle to get a game, off the Bench maybe... toump, salem, evans, blease, etc.

It's Jesse Hogan we are talking about here. He won the B+F at Casey last year. He looked more than capable of mixing it in the NAB cup last year.

I don't care if he spends most of the year back in the VFL if that's deemed necessary but this is not a guy who needs cuddling and protecting psychologically. To be honest I don't think Watts ever needed that either he just needed to be supported physically and not ruined psychologically. As I've said before they made a lot of mistakes pumping up Watts' debut but maybe the bigger problem was they didn't work out how to send him back to Casey with specific goals and expectations and without feeling like a failure. Hogan will lose confidence if they chop and change his role and keep him in the team if he's underperforming or drop him and not set him specific targets. I'm 99% sure that debuting him even in round 1 wont hurt him at all.

The young midfielders will be protected from heavy work loads as well of course. Viney wont be playing 80% game time in the centre square. Toumpas looks set to start at half forward. Salem will need dominant NAB challenge games to even get close to round 1.

[Dees2014 2,377]

I watched the first half of the game And I don't have a lot to add to what is already written by others Just a few observations.

- The days was very windy compared to the game two weeks ago and this made it more of a scramble .

- Due to a number of the better players missing and the numbers being made up of Casey players the standard of the was considerably lower than the game two weeks ago.

- Baring Injury Spencer will be the first ruck in round 1,

- Gawn surprised me I thought he played well and took a couple of big grabs in the forward line. He was obviously short of a run. If the beard stays he will be Ned to me from here on.

- As others have mentioned I was impressed with Watts, I did not see him put a foot wrong and as others have said seemed to always have time to do things. I will be very surprised if he does not have a big year.

- Fitzy played well I thought, he has size, Good hands and kicked well today. He is going to take a good backman every week, if teams don't give him full attention he will hurt them on the score board.

- Nicholson if he plays AFL this year we will have a large number of serious injuries. His disposal is not AFL, I doubt it is good enough for VFL.

- Dawes I thought he played well until injured but there lies the rub. Injured again, honestly will this ever end. I seriously question his worth if you cannot stay on the park you are not worth a cracker.

- Byrnes whatever got him in a premiership team at Geelong is long gone. Honestly play a kid not him. If we have injuries play a kid, anyone who has a possible future because he does not.

I never thought I would say this but I agree OD. Dawes and Clark are an enticing prospect but I too am now starting to doubt whether they will ever get on the park together. I remember a post I wrote in November when I said after October training that Clark and Dawes will not appear fully fit until well into March and may be not even then. There were houls of outrage from the soviet on here, but it wasn't far off the mark ( unfortunately).

Another issues, not really discussed on here today at at any length, was the very substandard performance of Hogsn today. He seemed to me to be unfit, and overweight. I doubt whether he will play round one. He shouldn't. He doesnt deserve it. Which I guess is what Roos has been saying all along. Those in form will play, those who are not wont - irrespective of their potential or reputation.. And I think that is a good thing

[DeeSpencer 25,687]

Fair points Master but I didn't envisage them all on at once. Also Fitzy has a mobility upside in that I reckon he could go back or play like a "wing" or receiving mid. Anyway it's February after all and anything is possible.

I like it when Fitzy gets the ball 60m out and can race away in to an empty 50 with his speed and blast a goal with his high ball drop strangely effective kicking style. I'm not so keen on him getting the ball up on the wing and trying to kick it to a forward target. I'd be much more confident with Bernie Vince or Jack Watts!

Either way if Dawes proves his fitness the next 2 weeks and Spencer is set in the ruck (almost by default considering Gawny is just warming in to his season and Jamar is MIA) then it probably leaves 2 spots for 3 talented guys in Hogan, Gawn and Fitzy.

I can't remember the last time we had a confident best 22 to line up in round 1 (2013 we played Gillies, 2012 an outmatched Tynan debuted and maybe even Spencer himself played round 1 in 2010 or 2011) and this year we might still be guessing on the last forward or defender picked but at least in terms of big guys we might get a competition for spots. That's exciting. That's how you get better when good young players aren't improving in preseason just so they can say they got better or to keep their spot on the list but they are doing it because they desperately want a round 1 spot.

[old dee 23,788]

I was impressed with our big blokes today. How about this scenario if Clark is not fit. Gawn plays mostly as a forward. Dawes plays CHF because he is prepared to run. Spencer does most of the ruck. Hogan plays forward up to the wing. Fitzy similar. One always off the ground.

Pretty close to my impression Bbo

However I would change one word drop the "if"

[rjay 24,919]

I know, but he's not experienced playing at this level, so we don't want to hurt his 'footy confidence', at this point IMO. If the supply is 'so-so', as the team adjusts to SO many new players.

Once the backhalf is settled & pumping the ball out, & the Mids are spreading to create; then it'll be time I think.

I think Viney will struggle to get a game, off the Bench maybe... toump, salem, evans, blease, etc.

...and he won't get that experience at Casey, only by playing at the level. He's had enough footy at Casey, let the boy play.

[DeeSpencer 25,687]

I never thought I would say this but I agree OD. Dawes and Clark are an enticing prospect but I too am now starting to doubt whether they will ever get on the park together. I remember a post I wrote in November when I said after October training that Clark and Dawes will not appear fully fit until well into March and may be not even then. There were houls of outrage from the soviet on here, but it wasn't far off the mark ( unfortunately).

Another issues, not really discussed on here today at at any length, was the very substandard performance of Hogsn today. He seemed to me to be unfit, and overweight. I doubt whether he will play round one. He shouldn't. He doesnt deserve it. Which I guess is what Roos has been saying all along. Those in form will play, those who are not wont - irrespective of their potential or reputation.. And I think that is a good thing

Oh FFS. You're making stuff up. Dawes appears perfectly fit and has been managed up until this point. Off restricted training today he came out and kicked a couple of goals and probably beat Tom McDonald. Clark was improving and then pulled a hammy. You are right to be speculative in regards to Clark because of his troubled history of late but you can't just guess injuries and then say how smart you were.

Hogan was not substandard today. He was not unfit or overweight. He was on the losing side of a completely unrealistic practice match against a decent enough opponent (I think Georgiou was on him for a bit). He kicked a goal didn't he or at least had a shot. Won a lovely ruck tap and followed it up and won the ball at half forward kicking to the north end and did one of the best handballs of the day to release a runner.

If round 1 was tomorrow he wouldn't play. But it's not. It's in a months time in which he will be back in ball work training. He should also play 2 practice games that will allow him to highlight his ability.

Maybe Fitzy, Dawes or heaven help us Pedersen with his 8 touches and 1 mark games will out play Hogan in to round 1 but you can't make a judgement on Fitzy and Gawn taking a few grabs on undersized young Casey defenders.

[Bitter but optimistic 22,239]

Pretty close to my impression Bbo

However I would change one word drop the "if"

Sadly, I suspect your are on the money OD.

[old dee 23,788]

I never thought I would say this but I agree OD. Dawes and Clark are an enticing prospect but I too am now starting to doubt whether they will ever get on the park together. I remember a post I wrote in November when I said after October training that Clark and Dawes will not appear fully fit until well into March and may be not even then. There were houls of outrage from the soviet on here, but it wasn't far off the mark ( unfortunately).

Another issues, not really discussed on here today at at any length, was the very substandard performance of Hogsn today. He seemed to me to be unfit, and overweight. I doubt whether he will play round one. He shouldn't. He doesnt deserve it. Which I guess is what Roos has been saying all along. Those in form will play, those who are not wont - irrespective of their potential or reputation.. And I think that is a good thing

Hogan was not one of the players I concentrated on Dees2014 and It was not deep in his zone a lot from memory so I don't remember a lot about him.

What I did notice during the pre game work was the size of his knee bandage. Not a good sign to me but that might just my paranoia about injuries.

[DeeSpencer 25,687]

Sadly, I suspect your are on the money OD.

I get the feeling Etihad isn't Clark's go anyway. Too firm and small. Let Fitzy or Gawny fill in for round 1. Big Mitch is a man of the people and that means playing at the peoples ground. That's how I'm convincing myself of a positive!

[old dee 23,788]

Just read the MFC site and it appears Dawes was not injured.

Thank god for that.

WE desperately need this guy on the front line on March 22nd and the next 20 games.

[Bitter but optimistic 22,239]

I get the feeling Etihad isn't Clark's go anyway. Too firm and small. Let Fitzy or Gawny fill in for round 1. Big Mitch is a man of the people and that means playing at the peoples ground. That's how I'm convincing myself of a positive!

You can play round 1 wherever you want master. Unfortunately I don't see it making a diff to Clark. However, I not writing him off completely - I just think it's going to be a slow process. Matthew Richardson eventually recovered from one of lisfranc (spellings wrong) injuries and he was handy.

[old dee 23,788]

I get the feeling Etihad isn't Clark's go anyway. Too firm and small. Let Fitzy or Gawny fill in for round 1. Big Mitch is a man of the people and that means playing at the peoples ground. That's how I'm convincing myself of a positive!

Grasping at straws tm?

If only it was that simple

Finding a positive at this point concerning Clark is difficult

Edited February 20, 2014 by old dee

[old dee 23,788]

You can play round 1 wherever you want master. Unfortunately I don't see it making a diff to Clark. However, I not writing him off completely - I just think it's going to be a slow process. Matthew Richardson eventually recovered from one of lisfranc (spellings wrong) injuries and he was handy.

From memory it was way shorter at about 12 months Bbo

Clarke is heading towards two years.

[dee-luded 2,959]

It's Jesse Hogan we are talking about here. He won the B+F at Casey last year. He looked more than capable of mixing it in the NAB cup last year.

I don't care if he spends most of the year back in the VFL if that's deemed necessary but this is not a guy who needs cuddling and protecting psychologically. To be honest I don't think Watts ever needed that either he just needed to be supported physically and not ruined psychologically. As I've said before they made a lot of mistakes pumping up Watts' debut but maybe the bigger problem was they didn't work out how to send him back to Casey with specific goals and expectations and without feeling like a failure. Hogan will lose confidence if they chop and change his role and keep him in the team if he's underperforming or drop him and not set him specific targets. I'm 99% sure that debuting him even in round 1 wont hurt him at all.

The young midfielders will be protected from heavy work loads as well of course. Viney wont be playing 80% game time in the centre square. Toumpas looks set to start at half forward. Salem will need dominant NAB challenge games to even get close to round 1.

playing him for the sake of supporter impatience, I'm more conservative than that.

i would not have played watts when we did & said so to people at the time before the first game. he didn't deserve the game anyway. he wasn't ready.

So I'd like to see us go in with older, tougher players, tougher at this point, players, to setup our standards.

so I'd keep Hogan off atm, & I wonder if he's been backed off a couple of weeks of fitness, for similar reasons.

[dee-luded 2,959]

...and he won't get that experience at Casey, only by playing at the level. He's had enough footy at Casey, let the boy play.

I'm talking about bringing him in when the teams ready for him.

[Bitter but optimistic 22,239]

Just read the MFC site and it appears Dawes was not injured.

Thank god for that.

WE desperately need this guy on the front line on March 22nd and the next 20 games.

That is fantastic news OD. I have to say Dawes has really impressed in the games I saw him play. We were [censored] but he acted like a true pro and ran, presented and chased. His training has been first rate and he is an example of how to be a professional athlete. I would love to see him play a full season.

[Ted Lasso 19,513]

So impressed with George Stone, couldn't ask for a better bloke to be in charge of our young midfield and think in time he will be as valuable to our club as Paul Roos

[RalphiusMaximus 6,048]

I giggle to myself every time I hear of the progress of Fitzpatrick.

So many writing him off in the early days. He still has a long way to go but there is a take home message - Big boys around 200cm take longer to mature and develop. Guys like NicNat tearing it up from the onset are the exceptions rather than the rule.

Fitzy will kick 30+ goals this season

Some people still dont realize how good this kid is

His speed for a 200cm player is insane

Like all of the above. I rated him before we drafted him, wanted us to take him with our second pick and couldn't believe he fell to the 50s. It's great to see him apparently in control of his health issues and starting to show what he can do n the ground. Given the ongoing injury concerns with Clark and Dawes I would not be a t all surprised to see him play most of the season with rotating talls around him as fitness dictates. He may well turn out to be our most durable forward this year.

[Ted Lasso 19,513]

Like all of the above. I rated him before we drafted him, wanted us to take him with our second pick and couldn't believe he fell to the 50s. It's great to see him apparently in control of his health issues and starting to show what he can do n the ground. Given the ongoing injury concerns with Clark and Dawes I would not be a t all surprised to see him play most of the season with rotating talls around him as fitness dictates. He may well turn out to be our most durable forward this year.

Imo fitzy has gone ahead of Dawes anyway, i'd pick him in my side if all four big forwards were fit, the ability to chop out in the ruck and extra speed around the ground is huge

[old dee 23,788]

When you play run and spread football ( which we havent seen for a number of years), turn the ball over and you are dead.

This will sort out the likes of Nicholson. He either improves or he is gone. I compare him with McKenzie. I was critical of Neeld telling McKenzie he needed to kick more. His use by hand is proficient enough. Why force him to kick more when it is the weakest part of his game. It is interesting to watch Hawthorn at the clearances. When the ball is bounced they seem to get one player within 5 metres of the drop who is clear. That allows the Mitchells and the Sewells who are in and under to give it someone who can then open up the play. The last two years we have had McKenzie at the bottom of the pack with no one clear to give to when he did come up with it.

The thing I loved about Bernie Vinces game on Friday was not the hard balls he got but the easy ones. We haven't had a player giving other players an easy out for two to three years ! Vince knows where to run. The likes of McKenzie will appreciate having a player close by and clear to dish off to.

Unless Nicholson can get a semblance of disposal he wont make it.

I think this is his fourth year at the dees and IMO his kicking has not improved one bit. Gone for me.

[old dee 23,788]

Forgot to mention my mate Bail.

Never been impressed.

By all accounts he played well against Richmond and surprised me today on a couple of occasions.

Gee I hope I have to eat my words by August.

[Bitter but optimistic 22,239]

Imo fitzy has gone ahead of Dawes anyway, i'd pick him in my side if all four big forwards were fit, the ability to chop out in the ruck and extra speed around the ground is huge

Fitzy has improved and I love his work but if both are fit, Dawes is a class ahead. More experience, works smarter, better contested mark, knows where to run and a leader.