We must trade pick 2

[baysidedave 246]

trade pick 2? It would have to be a bloody good deal for us to do that.

It is blatantly clear that we need midfielders, so we need to draft/trade for needs basis (not best available).

Even if we get a high priority pick, we still need to go all out with midfielders.

pick 2 + PP + 2nd round pick all need to be mids.

We could draft the likes of Aish, Dunstan and Hartung with those types of picks. From past draft experiences, not all will be stars (we will be lucky to get one very good player out of them), but we need to keep on bringing in new mids and hopefully land a couple of gems.

As for trading, who in their right mind would want to come to us anyways?

we need midfielders yes, if we get a new coach who is experienced then players will want to come to us.

[titan_uranus 25,020]

What pick we did or did not give up as nothing to do with the players desire or otherwise to come to the club.

I find it amazing that so many on here have intimate details of the contractual status of every single available player in the competition.

Yes, but saying Clark and Dawes wanted to come to the club isn't really relevant when you're considering the class of players for whom pick 2 is appropriate.

Neither Clark nor Dawes are, or were, worth pick 2, so it hardly matters whether they wanted to come here or not.

No one who is worth pick 2 is likely to want to come here, and you haven't been able to name anyone who is worth pick 2 who is, as yet, on the market. Asserting, then, that we must trade pick 2 doesn't really wash, given there isn't anyone out there who appears available.

If Scott Pendlebury walks out on Collingwood tomorrow, you may have something. Right now, pick 2's best use is in the draft.

[Bring Back Barassi 552]

we've gotta stop looking at our draft picks to be our saviour. the real improvement needs to come from our 22-25 year olds, not our new kids.

draft the best mids we can, and wait for the tree to flower

[Pennant St Dee 13,240]

If we get pick 1 as a PP and it is a very big if , that is what I would put on the table as I put in another thread, this draft is very heavy on midfielder players which is why Pick 1 is so valuable with Boyd and Hogan the best of this age group and we already have Hogan.

There are a lot of clubs chasing Boyd hence why Pick 1 is highly sought after. There is so much conjecture about who to pick next with Aish, Kelly, Scharenburg, Billings, Sheed etc I feel it makes pick 2 a lot less sought after.

As others have said use Pick 2 on a good young Mid, but I am all for using pick 1 PP if we get it to grab 2 decent mids to get us up and running through the midfield

[stuie 7,374]

True. But it was their (and the AFLs) intention that they trade in experience. They couldn't get clubs to part with quality, experienced players for mini draft picks. Neither will we.

Quoted from AFL website:

"But Silvagni said despite the Giants' best efforts, the clubs bidding for the rights to the country's elite 17-year-olds had preferred to offer draft picks.

"Our focus initially was to get some quality players through the door, senior players," Silvagni told Gillette AFL Trade Radio on Wednesday.

"Having said that, probably clubs weren't forthcoming in terms of what we wanted. We knew that the picks were valuable and obviously we wanted quality players back.

"I can totally understand why those clubs didn't want to give up those players.

"So we really needed to move forward and look to secure the best possible picks that these priority picks could bring."

Silvagni said he had no doubt the AFL wanted the Giants to use the mini-draft to attract senior opposition players.

Edit. Sorry, can't do the quote in a box thing.

My opinion is that they always intended using those picks and that's their reasoning (excuses) for it.

They've made it clear from the start they wanted to go hard for youth. The older recruits they got were all 2 years or less off retirement.

I still believe giving us a mini draft pick we have to trade is the best solution to the priority pick conundrum.

[Moonshadow 17,676]

My opinion is that they always intended using those picks and that's their reasoning (excuses) for it.

They've made it clear from the start they wanted to go hard for youth. The older recruits they got were all 2 years or less off retirement.

I still believe giving us a mini draft pick we have to trade is the best solution to the priority pick conundrum.

Agree on your last point, but it must be traded for player/s, not pick/s.

[stuie 7,374]

Agree on your last point, but it must be traded for player/s, not pick/s.

Yep, that's exactly what I'm proposing.

That's why I think it will work. the normal draft remains unchanged, we get a senior player, another team gets the best 17 year old.

[Ted Lasso 19,521]

Unless they give us pick 1 a mini draft is the go, hogan, omeara and martin will have clubs more open to the idea of trading for these boys

[Adam The God 30,274]

No, I think I've made it clear that "I'm not wedded to anyone this year, just get it right".

I like Kelly, Aish and a couple of others.

We "need" lots of things. In the main we need class.

Who do you think we'll get for pick 2 ?

If you mean 'who do you think we'll get for pick 2 in the draft', then I couldn't say I know this pool of players well enough to comment. Aish and Sheed look the goods, but how that translates to AFL, I have no idea. I'd prefer to leave that in the hands of people who have watched them copious times and followed them for a while. My impression from the four games I've seen is that there is a lack of inside class in this pool. I could well be wrong. If the club believes this notion is incorrect, then I'm all for keeping pick 2. I'm simply not convinced at this stage, coupled with the fact I believe we need to improve our midfield next year. Not in three or four years time.

With regards to putting the second pick up for trade, I think it's particularly defeatist to simply say, as some DLanders are doing, no one worth their salt will come to Melbourne. We have to shake some branches and see what falls out. If we like it, we deal. I doubt anyone on here is privy to certain opposition players and whether they would or wouldn't jump at a lucrative offer. Who'd have thought we'd get Clark or Dawes? 'Crackpot' Neeld, as you've dubbed him, quite rightly, managed to get both of them across the line. Imagine what Roos or Williams could do. The 2014 season will see us with a top line coach. That makes us a slightly more palatable proposition.

Whilst I'm probably still in the camp of best available, I fail to see what another potential flanker/outside runner is going to add to our list. I completely concur on the 'class' aspect. However, I think Toumpas and Viney both have inherent class. In fact, the latter reminds me of a young Kieran Jack, but probably has more natural talent having grown up with the game. Having said that, I'm also mindful that quite a few MFC players have shown that class and then failed to develop/deliver.

[Adam The God 30,274]

Unless they give us pick 1 a mini draft is the go, hogan, omeara and martin will have clubs more open to the idea of trading for these boys

Crouch looks a goer too.

[rjay 24,964]

Haven't you been reading anything in the last 6 weeks re Buddy?

I'm sure a deal will be tried... buddy will want to look after the Hawks as he should, & still take the money, & the Hawks will want to try to get a head start to rebuild, via a trade...

& I feel sure the AFL will Not want the free agency to cause the loss of marquee players from their clubs... but in this case they'll want buddy to be the flagship up in Sydney's west. so a deal makes sense to help out both... if buddy doesn't move, then another club will cough up...

Daisy, I'm sure Eddy would try to get a deal,,, in some form, or GWS will get targeted. I get the feeling that the Pies are ready for Thomas to leave?

# I think your wrong about the Blues. GWS are desperate for experience & maturity, but maybe 2 experienced players may be better for them, than one marquee player?

People floating ideas 'dee-luded', nothing more than that. If GWS make an offer for Buddy that will be it they will be paying him a load of cash and they won't be interested in looking after Hawthorn. It aint going to happen.

I'm still wondering if they will make the offer or whether he is to hot to handle. I'm pretty sure that Bellchambers has been made a big offer but that may well depend on the ASADA results.

Free agents no secondary deals, it's just nice paper talk.

[Adam The God 30,274]

Your little hypothetical at the end there sounds nice, until you stop and think logically about it. You're doing exactly what BH said is the problem - living in a world where these players just show up at the MFC.

Why would Kennedy leave Sydney to come to Melbourne? That's leaving the 2012 and possibly 2013 premier, a club that isn't exactly going to fall off the cliff next year, to go to the potential wooden spooner of 2013, a club whose future, if you're the only one who shows up, is still rather bleak. We're not GWS, we're not made of money. Why would he want to come here? Sydney may want pick 2, but they'll want Kennedy just as much, if not more, so that is simply never, ever going to happen.

I've mentioned that if pick 2 doesn't lure an A grader, then there's no point. Use it on the best young kid. I'd be poking my nose around Collingwood. I'd be getting in Sewell's ear. I'd be getting the lay of the land, not simply sitting back and saying 'oh, we'll never land anyone'. Who knows with regards to Kennedy. If they win another flag this year, he might say it's time to head home on lucrative coin. My point is, we simply don't know until we put the second pick on the table.

[Young Dee 1,303]

Don't know about trading pick 2 - we have to wait and see what a. The draft is like, b. what is on the trade table and c. Free agency (any decent youngish mids or maybe a senior mentor - Cooney)

If we got pick 1 I would defiantly say trade though because your basically trading Tom Boyd (which we don't need but other clubs do - high demand high price).

Whether we trade pick 2 or not depends on the established mids on the trade table and free agency (then no need to trade).

I think if we want genuine improvement next year we need two good mids aged 21-24

Edited July 28, 2013 by Young Dee

[Moonshadow 17,676]

Yep, that's exactly what I'm proposing.

That's why I think it will work. the normal draft remains unchanged, we get a senior player, another team gets the best 17 year old.

Without bundling a player such as Watts with a mini draft pick, I doubt we'd get anything decent (obviously I'd prefer to keep Watts). Not quite the same, but Carlton had to give up Kennedy AND pick 3 (? I think) to get Judd.

I know it's kind of gift horse/mouth, but a mini draft pick may not get us much on its own and could set a bad example in the future to the AFL. It was created to give a new franchise a bit of list experience. Would the Doggies deserve one in a couple of years if they finish near the bottom again? Or should GWS get more mini's if they are still struggling in 2 yrs? It's a PP in disguise, I think Stuie.

[rjay 24,964]

I'm sure you are aware that Ablett Jnr wasn't traded, rjay.

But we differ in opinion. The simple fact is we have one midfielder ATM who is arguably B+ grade, Nate Jones. Games are won in the midfield. I'd reluctantly swap Chip for Fyfe or Martin any day. A really good mid who potentially gets 30-35 possessions regularly is worth more than a really good key back. It's been so long, we've forgotten the true value of that type of player.

You have to give up quality to get quality.

I know you have to give up quality 'Moonshadow' and that's why I've been arguing there is no quality on offer for the number 2 pick.

Frawley is one of a few in the comp, midfielders, well every club except us seems to have them.

...and yes I know Ablett wasn't traded, my point was that if I had an offer for Ablett and he was now 25-26 yo for Frawley, he's the only mid I would consider trading for.

Looks like I value that key back position more than you, that's ok.

[bush demon 2,046]

Unless we can get back a massive talent thats been in the system for a few years already and about to explode - like we did when we traded pick 2 for Jeff White - then it wont happen

The new coach will back himself in anyway to develop whoever we take at pick 2.

Who was pick two, out of interest?

[bush demon 2,046]

With Hogan Dawes, Watts, Howe and Clark up forward next year they will just suck the ball into the forward line. Lesser mids will look better because less goals have to be invented.

[Moonshadow 17,676]

I know you have to give up quality 'Moonshadow' and that's why I've been arguing there is no quality on offer for the number 2 pick.

Frawley is one of a few in the comp, midfielders, well every club except us seems to have them.

...and yes I know Ablett wasn't traded, my point was that if I had an offer for Ablett and he was now 25-26 yo for Frawley, he's the only mid I would consider trading for.

Looks like I value that key back position more than you, that's ok.

Fair enough rjay. All good.

Chip certainly gives bang for buck because the ball is peppered in his direction so often. I too want to see him in red n blue for years to come, but also believe he has a trade price if that is what it takes.

[stuie 7,374]

Without bundling a player such as Watts with a mini draft pick, I doubt we'd get anything decent (obviously I'd prefer to keep Watts). Not quite the same, but Carlton had to give up Kennedy AND pick 3 (? I think) to get Judd.

I know it's kind of gift horse/mouth, but a mini draft pick may not get us much on its own and could set a bad example in the future to the AFL. It was created to give a new franchise a bit of list experience. Would the Doggies deserve one in a couple of years if they finish near the bottom again? Or should GWS get more mini's if they are still struggling in 2 yrs? It's a PP in disguise, I think Stuie.

Maybe that's the idea though. Just because we need help, doesn't mean we have to get the number 1 pick. Giving us just that little bit of extra help discourages tanking, satisfies the other clubs, and encourages us to rebuild the right way.

[dee-luded 2,959]

People floating ideas 'dee-luded', nothing more than that. If GWS make an offer for Buddy that will be it they will be paying him a load of cash and they won't be interested in looking after Hawthorn. It aint going to happen.

I'm still wondering if they will make the offer or whether he is to hot to handle. I'm pretty sure that Bellchambers has been made a big offer but that may well depend on the ASADA results.

Free agents no secondary deals, it's just nice paper talk.

its not up to GWS. Its in Buddies hands, & he won't want to burn his mates, for nothing in return.. he owes that club a lot.

Talk was he may sign a new contract with the Hawks & then get traded. I don't understand the rules around this, or even if they've changed?

But I think GWS would be happy to work a deal that suits all parties as its the AFL making them a going concern... but the AFL have hurt other clubs in the past with their own poor decisions.

If a deal can't be reached then I reckon buddy will stay with Hawthorn.

that then opens the door to Carlton & IMO the Pies... the Q stik hasn't worked out.

[rjay 24,964]

its not up to GWS. Its in Buddies hands, & he won't want to burn his mates, for nothing in return.. he owes that club a lot.

Talk was he may sign a new contract with the Hawks & then get traded. I don't understand the rules around this, or even if they've changed?

But I think GWS would be happy to work a deal that suits all parties as its the AFL making them a going concern... but the AFL have hurt other clubs in the past with their own poor decisions.

If a deal can't be reached then I reckon buddy will stay with Hawthorn.

that then opens the door to Carlton & IMO the Pies... the Q stik hasn't worked out.

I just don't see them as the nice guys 'dee-luded', it is in their hands though as well as buddies. If they want to offer him the money but not compensate Hawthorn then they can walk as well if he insists. Who will hold their nerve?

[dee-luded 2,959]

I just don't see them as the nice guys 'dee-luded', it is in their hands though as well as buddies. If they want to offer him the money but not compensate Hawthorn then they can walk as well if he insists. Who will hold their nerve?

its buddies decision, & I suspect he's not really a money person, even tho he would be flattered, he may be satisfied with what he has.

remember GWS hasn't attracted any of note in the way of elite afl stars.

like paul roos, money is not everything...

[rjay 24,964]

its buddies decision, & I suspect he's not really a money person, even tho he would be flattered, he may be satisfied with what he has.

remember GWS hasn't attracted any of note in the way of elite afl stars.

like paul roos, money is not everything...

Yep, agree. So if he's not into the money then he won't go and looking after Hawthorn he will do by staying there.

[titan_uranus 25,020]

I've mentioned that if pick 2 doesn't lure an A grader, then there's no point. Use it on the best young kid. I'd be poking my nose around Collingwood. I'd be getting in Sewell's ear. I'd be getting the lay of the land, not simply sitting back and saying 'oh, we'll never land anyone'. Who knows with regards to Kennedy. If they win another flag this year, he might say it's time to head home on lucrative coin. My point is, we simply don't know until we put the second pick on the table.

So I think that we're all in agreement on this - we're not letting pick 2 go unless there is a true star available.

The difference in opinion comes from the reality of this. We can get in clubs'/players' ears, we can try to suss out players, but given the position of pick 2, there currently is little to no evidence at all to suggest anyone worthy of pick 2 will be available.

We'll have to wait and see, I guess, but I'm certainly not expecting us to do anything other than draft a kid with pick 2.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,816]

If Tom Boyd goes as Pick 1 to whoever, that means we'll have the best available mid at pick 2*. That's got to be better than any possible trade scenario.

And for what it's worth, I don't think we'll get a priority pick ahead of every other club's first round draft pick, if at all.

*assuming Nasher's prophesy that we'll end up above St Kilda doesn't happen. (Nasher - you're dreaming)