Stats that matter - Dees improvement under Craig

[timD 994]

Everybody can learn. Neeld was ousted before his plan came to fruition. Craig is not the man for me.

Don't forget that players improved under Neeld too. But, of course, there will never be any credit given for that.

Like I said, I'll go tomorrow, have a few beers and share a few laughs with some mates.

Life's good.

This is just not true. Anyone could see that the group had its strength drained by Neeld. Explain how we gave in against Port Adelaide but fight games out under Craig? Neeld had two preseasons to straighten attitude out and failed. Craig has had an immediate impact.

Neeld did not get to do what he wanted and thank goodness for that. Having vision is one thing: burning the list mentally to the ground to achieve it is something else.

[PJ_12345 1,098]

This is just not true. Anyone could see that the group had its strength drained by Neeld. Explain how we gave in against Port Adelaide but fight games out under Craig? Neeld had two preseasons to straighten attitude out and failed. Craig has had an immediate impact.

Neeld did not get to do what he wanted and thank goodness for that. Having vision is one thing: burning the list mentally to the ground to achieve it is something else.

Big difference however in the list. Craig has inherited a better list than Neeld did.

I'll cop a lot of flak for that but someone had to cull the lazy, post PB list. A different approach could have taken in terms of severity (maybe instead of 14 delistings/trade in one year it could have been over two) and might have saved our midfield.

[mjt 640]

I still shake my head every time someone writes this. A 5 year old knows that there are different types of losses, why don't you?

No Melbourne supporters no there a different type of losses.

[Weedster 174]

Everybody can learn. Neeld was ousted before his plan came to fruition. Craig is not the man for me.

Don't forget that players improved under Neeld too. But, of course, there will never be any credit given for that.

Like I said, I'll go tomorrow, have a few beers and share a few laughs with some mates.

Life's good.

Nothing improved under Neeld unfortunately. 100 point losses became the norm.

Everyone wanted him to succeed. Unfortunately he didn't.

The change under Craig has been both noticeable and immediate.

[jumbo returns 6,484]

This is just not true. Anyone could see that the group had its strength drained by Neeld. Explain how we gave in against Port Adelaide but fight games out under Craig? Neeld had two preseasons to straighten attitude out and failed. Craig has had an immediate impact.

Neeld did not get to do what he wanted and thank goodness for that. Having vision is one thing: burning the list mentally to the ground to achieve it is something else.

This is not true either.

Fight games out? Seriously? Or do other teams take their foot off the throat?

Passive, meek, lifeless.

Everyone's been posturing ruthlessness since 2000 - the kitchen got too hot.

[nutbean 8,837]

I still shake my head every time someone writes this. A 5 year old knows that there are different types of losses, why don't you?

If wins were all that mattered every coach every year is judged a failure except for the one holding up the cup and every supporter of every club should call for their heads. In a perfect world with a perfect club wins are all that matters but that is not reality. So each club sets its own benchmark as to what is their definition of improvement.

And whilst the way we are playing is totally unacceptable the smarter posters can see that there has been baby steps forward since Neeld has been removed.

[jumbo returns 6,484]

This is the part I don't follow:

You say we were patheitc under Neeld as you still regard us as non-competitive. And that is fine.

But then you say that Neeld could have brought about this improvement that we are seeing.

He didn't. He had 33 games to show some sort of consistency of performance and didn't get what Craig has been able to get in his 5 games.

We are still losers, and Craig may not be the man for the job - he may be simply getting 75% out of this group, but it is better than whatever percentage Neeld was getting out of them.

He was a failure, and I didn't need the juxtaposition of the perfomances of late to prove that, but it has been quite a exclamation mark.

rpfc, we have differing views on this.

Do you think Craig changed a game plan in one week? Is there a possibility for natural improvement? Not forgetting a more favourable draw?

Anyway, enjoy your weekend. I hope North don't bash us around too much.

[deanox 8,516]

Im going to take the middle ground approach on this because I really think that's the only one that's true.

Neeld has some positive legacies. He culled where it was needed. He set good standards. Misson is an appointment that will leave us in good stead in the future.

He had also lost the group. Was it his fault? I don't know. Psychologically getting belted in round one surprised us all, including the players and we never recovered. Was it Neeld? Maybe. Probably. But even the best coach probably couldn't have recovered the group at that point. The team was smashed horrendously at a time when self confidence was already fragile. I think it would be rate that beltings like that happen in round 1, and for it to happen twice was a bigger shock.

I expected to see improvement moving forward whether or not Neeld was involved. I also expected that removing Neeld would be seen as releasing the shackles by the players. That may have been Neeld related, but it may also have been psychologically related ie release the building pressure.

Edited July 26, 2013 by deanox

[Dwight Schrute 16,722]

I think Neeld was right in expressing the importance of defensive play so strongly, but not every group is a Collingwood, i think we're much more suited to a Geelong style of play but are building a Brisbane early 2000's style lineup, Craig has come in and let the players back their talents in and they seem to be really enjoying their football, not sure if it's a solution but it seems to have blokes like Watts wanting to stay Demons which i am sure was a big part of his job when he became caretaker

[jumbo returns 6,484]

Something else that has really annoyed me has been this talk about players walking.

Last year, Howe signed for 3 more years: under Neeld

Blease signed: under Neeld

Clark signed: under Neeld

Dawes signed: under Neeld

Sylvia and Watts, you say? Watts who polarises so many and Sylvia who dgaf?

Don't tell me that Craig is selling a hope, a vision. Good grief.

[titan_uranus 22,220]

Jumbo might have taken this a bit far, but I have to say I agree with him/her fundamentally. Craig has made us easier to watch, not better. Better in ball movement, but not more effective. I don't think he is any more the solution than Neeld was the problem.

I think we looked better mainly because of the quality of our opposition. We hung in there against the Swans, which was kind of good, but that game most days was 13 goals. Geelong was as bad as anything. Let's wait until the end of the year.

As always, it's the midfield, stupid!

The one makes the other.

We looked better against Sydney. We looked better against Geelong even. We looked better against Brisbane.

You and jumbo are really struggling to come up with fair arguments in this 'debate'. The evidence as most people can see it is that we are markedly better since Craig started coaching. We're haven't suddenly become a top 8 side, we haven't even become a top 15 side. We know where we sit. But we're much better than we were when Neeld was coaching. We are running harder and smarter, we are playing a more direct brand of football, we are structured better and we're being coached on game day better.

We're still crap, but we're better.

[jumbo returns 6,484]

The one makes the other.

We looked better against Sydney. We looked better against Geelong even. We looked better against Brisbane.

You and jumbo are really struggling to come up with fair arguments in this 'debate'. The evidence as most people can see it is that we are markedly better since Craig started coaching. We're haven't suddenly become a top 8 side, we haven't even become a top 15 side. We know where we sit. But we're much better than we were when Neeld was coaching. We are running harder and smarter, we are playing a more direct brand of football, we are structured better and we're being coached on game day better.

We're still crap, but we're better.

You lost me right there, t_u.

[John Crow Batty 8,225]

Some seriously sick puppies have hijacked this thread.

[P-man 13,154]

Something else that has really annoyed me has been this talk about players walking.

Last year, Howe signed for 3 more years: under Neeld

Blease signed: under Neeld

Clark signed: under Neeld

Dawes signed: under Neeld

Sylvia and Watts, you say? Watts who polarises so many and Sylvia who dgaf?

Don't tell me that Craig is selling a hope, a vision. Good grief.

Seriously, what in god's name are you on about?

He's an interim coach. His job is to get the most out of the group for the 11 weeks he's in the job. You're potting the bloke 5 weeks in, and on the back of performances that Neeld couldn't get near.

[jumbo returns 6,484]

Seriously, what in god's name are you on about?

He's an interim coach. His job is to get the most out of the group for the 11 weeks he's in the job. You're potting the bloke 5 weeks in, and on the back of performances that Neeld couldn't get near.

Just replying to the rose coloured visionaries on here. Not a Craig fan. What's wrong with that?

[McQueen 17,862]

Just replying to the rose coloured visionaries on here. Not a Craig fan. What's wrong with that?

JR, by any chance are you related to Neeld? Serious question.

[dees64 104]

The job that Craig has done to turn this team to get them to provide a contest @ afl standard within the last 4 weeks has been great, when you consider the damage that was done by Neeld!

When you hear players the belief that Craig has shown in them eg Watts & Fitzpatrick & plenty of others, it just amazes me how the club allowed his style to basically push out players like Moloney & Rivers.

[rpfc 27,391]

2013 has seen a remarkable level of ineptitude from this club - staggering really. I have highlighted a few key stats - ahead of the median AFL teams in green, behind the median AFL teams in red.

Under Neeld, compared to the median AFL team(s), we managed:

23 Contested Possessions LESS

29 Uncontested Possessions LESS

12 Inside 50s LESS

5 Clearances LESS

7 Marks LESS

Under Neeld our opponents, compared to the median AFL team(s), managed:

5 Contested Possessions MORE

46 Uncontested Possessions MORE

8 Inside 50s MORE

3 Clearances MORE

14 Marks MORE

Under Craig (and leaving aside the Geelong game which skewed every stat up or down), compared to the median AFL team(s), we are managing:

16 Contested Possessions LESS

1 Uncontested Possessions MORE

5 Inside 50s LESS

4 Clearances LESS

13 Marks MORE

Under Craig our opponents, compared to the median AFL team(s), managed:

9 Contested Possessions MORE

7 Uncontested Possessions MORE

2 Inside 50s MORE

3 Clearances MORE

11 Marks LESS

Our net improvement under Craig from the first 11 rounds has been:

+3 Contested Possessions compared to our direct opponent.

+70 Uncontested Possessions compared to our direct opponent.

+14 Inside 50s compared to our direct opponent.

-1 Clearances compared to our direct opponent.

+45 Marks compared to our direct opponent.

It's a staggering improvement, and while we are still some way off the pace of other clubs, the key determinators or run and spread in the modern game: Uncontested Possessions, Marks and Inside 50s have all shot up dramatically under Craig.

[John Crow Batty 8,225]

if Craig gets the job full time I would not be disapointed. He is just as capable as any other worthy suitor thats been touted. I believe he is highly competant and capable of taking us to the top 4 level in the next 3 seasons.

[P-man 13,154]

jumbo won't fancy you leaving out the Geelong game. That's his ace in the pack for this ultra bizarre anti-Craig crusade.

...even if 80% of teams would get belted in a wet weather game at KP.

[Demon Dynasty 15,205]

Craig's first 5 games as Coach vs Neeld's last 5

Average Differential / Average Differential % increase/decrease

Blue = positive result for Craig. Red = negative result for Craig. Black italics = potentially a negative/neutral or positive result.

Contested +18 / +15.6%

Uncontested +3.6 / +1.9%

Effective Disposals +10.4 / +4.7%

Effective Disposal % -3.3%

Tackles +10.4 / +17.4%

Clangers -2.6 / -5.5%

Contested Marks +1 / +12.2%

Goal Assists +1.8 / +37.5%

Marks i50 +1.8 / +28.1%

Clearances +4.6 / +14.8%

1 Percenters +4 / +9.0%

Bounces +6.6 / +94.3%

Kicks +22 / +12.5%

Handballs +2.6 / +1.9%

Inside 50s +6 / +16.9%

*Disposals Per Goal -6.7 / -15.0%

Rebound 50s +2.6 / +7.4%

Kick to handball ratio has increased by 10.4% (Craig 1.43 v Neeld 1.30)

*Note that our worst results this year were as follows..... 75.5 disposals per goal vs the Cats under Craig and 68 vs the Pies under Neeld. Our 2 best results were both under Neeld. 16.36 vs the Giants in Rnd 4 and 21.57 vs the Lions in Rnd 5. Craig's best result here so far is 23 vs the Bulldogs.

Stats: Courtesy of Footywire

Edited July 26, 2013 by Rusty Nails

[John Crow Batty 8,225]

Round 14

Geelong 11.19

Fremantle 7.2

Round 16

Geelong 13.20

Melbourne 4.6

Similar scoring scenario. 3 to 1 against scoring shots. Even Freo got toweled up there recently and no one can deny they are a top side. They also did not have to play in bucketing rain like us. Ross Lyon must be dud coach. Some very hollow arguments by Craig detractors. Our only 10 goal loss under him in the most challenging conditions. Whilst there have been eight 10 goal plus losses under Neeld this season.

Edited July 27, 2013 by america de cali

[beelzebub 22,225]

In all seriousness , despite all the cleverness of the many stats presented there is only ONE stat that matters.

Neeld had 1 win in 11 games this year. Craigs had 1 win in less than half as many.

Thats about all you can take out of this.

Whilst many may watch the minutae of the situation I just look at the scoreboard. In the end the game is about nothing else, just the scoreboard.

I still dont like losing

[titan_uranus 22,220]

You lost me right there, t_u.

Not surprising. You clearly aren't capable of digesting differing opinions.

Compare our effort against Geelong with our efforts pre-Craig. The running, chasing, tackling, all better. Our skills were abysmal, but no one's suggesting they're not. We're a substandard AFL side, but we're much better than we were under Neeld.

The Geelong game would only have been worse under Neeld.

In all seriousness , despite all the cleverness of the many stats presented there is only ONE stat that matters.

Neeld had 1 win in 11 games this year. Craigs had 1 win in less than half as many.

Thats about all you can take out of this.

Whilst many may watch the minutae of the situation I just look at the scoreboard. In the end the game is about nothing else, just the scoreboard.

I still dont like losing

Can't agree.

The Craig half of the year is almost about everything other than wins. It's about whether or not our players actually have the ability to play AFL - we weren't sure under Neeld. It's about whether or not we can galvanise this group, about whether they want to play for us, about whether there is a future. It's about whether we have a forward and/or backline, and whether we're right in saying our midfield needs reconstructive surgery.

Wins are important, but right now, with the improvement we've shown, I'm looking at where this club might go in 2014, and it's looking a lot better than it did on Queen's Birthday.

[McQueen 17,862]

For me, when the game has finished, I no longer get that 'I've just been kicked in the guts' feeling.

It took several days to go away.

I know we all post things we sometimes regret but this has got to be right up there, Champ..