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Fat Tony

Trade Dawes?

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what if the new coach has plans for him and wants to keep him and keep developing him? would love to know who gave you your "mail" as im sure they have no idea what the future coach has in mind for the list

Sorry I meant Yarran may be up for trade. I hear more about Carlton than MFC

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Sorry I meant Yarran may be up for trade. I hear more about Carlton than MFC

righto that's cool, thanks for clarifying. it read your mail was for trading fitzy, or that's how I read it

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INTERESTING,hope none of those players are traded. I think CLARKE will retire prematurely due to his foot injury.

THE club doesn't need any Carlton Rejects.... they may go thru a REBUILD of a REBUILD.

TRADE JAMAR has not done anything for a long time.......SPENCER can go cannot kick goals like GAWN and FITZPATRICK.

WITH regards to JAMAR being loyal to the club,as a player you have to maintain form.

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The idea was right but the execution just left a lot to be desired. A major plot-hole was the fact that in no world does anyone buy the suggestion the Dogs would trade Libba Jnr. I'd give it half a star.

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..... there's an Idea, lets kill off every player, once they get to 120 games.... Logans Run, down the wing, then into the middle & oblivion.

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rubbish thread

Mitch Clark still is not even 50% fit for a comeback

we need Chris Dawes

Dawes is a true leader - trade? you are mad

25, size, strength, contested mark, goalkicker, gives 100%

No chance Chris Dawes will be traded

shut down this thread !!!!!!!!!!!!!! non constructive. non likely

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I think this post would have been received a lot better on here if the title of the thread was chosen more effectively, and one that did not elicit such emotional responses from posters. It raises some interesting points about the strength of our key position forwards on our list, particularly relative to our complete dearth of midfield talent.

Premiership sides are always founded on very strong midfield groups - which we are a long way off at the moment. We need to be creative in our search for midfield talent and the opening post does this.

Sometimes you have to give up something good to get something good in return. For example, consider the Chris Judd trade. While West Coast were desperate to keep Judd, they also did very well out of the trade - essentially getting Masten and Kennedy and pick 20 in return for pick 46. Certainly for the next 6-8 years West Coast will get more from that trade than if they had kept Judd (and are getting significantly more out of Masten and Kennedy this year than Carlton are out of Judd). Furthermore, by bottoming out they managed to snare Nic Naitanui, who has the potential to be a dominant player more consistently. The point I am making is that even with very good players (or in Dawes' case - good players) trades can have positive outcomes.

In terms of trading away one of our key position forwards - as the opening post discusses - I agree that Dawes is the only one that we could receive anywhere near what they are really worth (given Clark's injury and Fitzy's lack of games - although if his form continues he may be in high demand come the end of the season). However, there are a few key reasons why I think trading Dawes is not advisable - unless the offer is exceptional.

Firstly, as a footballer Dawes provides a lot. He is excellent at being the 'lead-up' type forward as he always provides a contest and importantly, he delivers the ball very well into the forward line. He also provides excellent defensive pressure which is very important, especially with how many tall options we have in the forward line.

Secondly, Dawes is clearly a strong leader. By all reports, Dawes is an excellent trainer and it looks like he has a very positive impact working with our young players. Clearly this is the type of player, and character, that we need to dig ourselves out of our current hole.

Thirdly, Dawes is a big bodied, strong, experienced footballer. Again this is something we are short on.

Fourthly, I do not think it is a good precedent that you set by trading away a player that you have just traded in - even if you have, as we will, a new coach. Dawes is only one year into a four-year deal (and has clearly had a positive impact thus far) and trading him would send the wrong message, both to players from rival clubs that we are seeking to attract but also to our own players. Under both Neeld and Bailey we have alienated senior players through disgraceful mismanagement and the consequences have quite clearly been disastrous.

In summary, I think it is unlikely to be a good idea to trade Dawes unless the offer is exceptional. But with several clubs such as the Bulldogs and Carlton crying out for a key forward, and undoubtedly looking at our key position stocks with envy, it is not completely out of the question. I think the standard of the debate on this thread is disappointing given the amount of thought that has gone into the opening post, as well as the importance of looking at ways to improve our deplorable midfield.

Edited by demonattack
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There are a number of points to be made about the six tall forwards - Clark, Dawes, Hogan, Watts, Fitz & Howe.

First comes availability. We have yet to see Clark & Dawes play together. The chance of all six being available on the same week would have to be remote. I'd expect it to average at about 4 of them available at the one time. We will always need back-up to cover injuries. On the other hand, if more than 4 were available, it just creates tough competition for spots and keeps them all at their absolute peak.

Second comes game time. We probably don't need more than 3 or 4 of them on the field at the same time, but picking 5 in the 22 who average 80% game time equals 4 positions on the field at any one time.

Third, you'd want two good smalls - one a fast nippy Davey-type crumber, the other a hard-hitter like Sylvia or Tapscott. This would be an unbelievable combination of skill and physical strength.

Fourth, the big risk with any tall forward line is lack of defensive pressure - too easy for defenders to run off them and create havoc. However, the six are all fast and mobile and have the tools to apply pressure. Some already do it well - Clark, Fitz, Hogan, and perhaps Dawes; Watts is getting much better, and Howe has the tools but just needs to concentrate.

On the other hand, it's relatively easy for good defenders to spoil high balls, and even a tall forward line of this quality could be stuffed by lousy delivery. Again, all these individuals are great for second and third efforts when the ball hits the ground.

So it could work really well, at least in theory, and if it does, it will not only be a great weapon, but will make us far less dependent on the number of F50s, and far harder to stop. We would only need a handful of breakaway attacks a term to kick a competitive score.

But in practice, who knows? So much would depend on them forming a high level of understanding and teamwork to avoid getting in each others way, and they would have to be coached extremely well.

That's why I agree totally with this post:

I have also considered your argument that we should trade a KPF for a mid. My view is not this season. Lets see how everything pans out after next season and if we truly have too many high quality KPF than lets look at trading one for a mid at the end of 2014. With better supply next season surely we will get better value then.

We should keep everybody for 2014, experiment to find the best combinations and positions, and see how far we could push it. But if it does make us too top-heavy, we trade end of 2014.

Unless an absolutely elite mid lands on the trade table in a few months ...

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lol...no mercy shown.

Like the effort you put into this idea Tony, but that's just about all I like about it. Sorry champ.

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Hey Fat Tony - tough crowd.

And I'd rather be a clown than a pig.

At least you brought some unity.

You would do well as a member of the ALP.

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Wow, strong response in favour of Dawes! Shows the power of his rhetoric. I think everyone was crying out for a strong voice during our darkest hours and he provided that so there is a lot of love for Dawesy here. I am very surprised at the rubbishing of Fat Tony for this thread. Time to play devils advocate...

* Dawes speaks well, leads well... plays average.

* Identical stats as Brad Miller across his career. 12 disposals 1 goal forwards. http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/players/C/Chris_Dawes.html

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/players/B/Brad_Miller.html

* Played a handful of games for us so far... 2 or 3 of them were terrible.

* Talked up Neeldy with great enthusiasm when Neeld was obviously a dud.

* Wasn't required at his former club because they are a top club.

Anyone who puts him above Aaron Black, Jack Darling or almost any other key forward at any other club is somewhat deluded. Having said that I do like him and think we should keep him if possible because we need leaders like him and the depth is great. But definitely should look to trade him if a big offer is made, especially as it clear up salary cap to keep real stars in the future.

And I should have posted this here instead of the Jack Fitz thread...

"I am surprised that so many put Dawes ahead of Fitzy in medium-long term planning. Dawes has reached his potential and has averages out at a little over 1 goal and 13 touches in a game. Fitz has matched and even exceeded that in his first few games and is only just getting started. You heard Brereton and Dunstall talking about Fitzy's upside. I'm sure they never looked at Chris Dawes in the same way. Dawes is a sound footballer nothing more.

I would think that Hogan, Watts, Fitz, Clark would all be ahead of Dawes this time next year. Dawes very good for leadership and depth obviously, despite being drastically overpaid for that role."

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Wow, strong response in favour of Dawes! Shows the power of his rhetoric.

No, it shows that YOU are the MINORITY because you don't know what you're talking about

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Firstly, I believe that the best forward setups going forward will probably tend to include two gun KPF and a mobile third tall. It is also important to have a genuine key forward that can play as second ruck within this mix. Surrounding the KPF needs to be a mix of midfielders or crumbers (and I think Carlton has shown you cannot really have three crumbers). This type of setup provides enough space for the big forwards to operate and ensures enough forward pressure is able to be applied when the ball hits the ground.

At present our midfield is stuck in the Third World and we have an abundance of KPFs which we won’t be able to fit all into the one side. While many will consider our depth in this area to be a good thing, I think we also have to consider the option of trading out a KPF at the end of the year in order to boost our midfield. And this is before any potential Priority Pick #1, which would likely be used on Tom Boyd if it is kept by MFC, because by reports Boyd is the standout #1 in the draft pool. However, a problem we would face with this approach is that most of our key forwards would not reap there full market value at the trade table at this point in time. This is where I see our KPFs currently at:

  • Mitch Clark is coming off a bad injury and therefore would not be in high demand. And I doubt we would want to ever trade him if he can get back to fitness. A fully fit Clark also provides some flexibility because he can play in the ruck.
  • Jesse Hogan looks to be a genuine top 10 AFL player of the near future and will play immediately next year. He is the most valuable player on our list and is untradeable.
  • Jack Watts is finally starting to show his ability at AFL level. Watts has some versatility, in that he can play forward and back (as well as potentially on the wing), but I think he is likely to play his to play his best footy as a third tall forward. I am pretty confident that Watts will improve as he gets stronger/older and I don’t think we would get his full worth at the trade table at this point in time.
  • Jeremy Howe also has some versatility in that he can play through the midfield as well as forward. With his marking ability, however, he is really best suited to playing in the forward line. We may get somewhere near Howe’s value if we put him up for trade.
  • Jack Fitzpatrick is a long-term project who is starting to show some good signs. Fitzpatrick is also flexible in that he can play as a second ruckman. I think Fitzpatrick has a lot of talent given his pace and size, so I would be reluctant to trade him at such a young age in the absence of an exceptional offer. We won’t get anywhere near good value in a Fitzpatrick trade unless he continues his recent good form for the rest of the year anyhow.
  • Provided Max Gawn can stay fit he will likely be our first choice ruckman going forward. Gawn doesn’t have the biggest tank and has shown ability to play as a deep forward. While his ability to play on the ball will improve with a good preseason, I still think he will have to spend good periods ‘resting’ in the forward line next year.
  • Chris Dawes is our least flexible key forward in terms of position (possibly along with Hogan) and he has shown that he is not really able to play as a second ruckman. Dawes displays strong leadership and his form has improved since transferring from Collingwood. Dawes is reasonably mobile for a man his size, he takes a few paces to get going and is no Lance Franklin in terms of forward pressure. Dawes trade value has potentially improved with his form since last year. Dawes is 25, so is approaching the peak of his powers. He also commands a high salary/level of salary cap space.

Given this summation of our position, I feel we may have to consider trading Dawes at year end. While this move would be highly unpopular, it may also significantly improve our team, particularly in three years when we hope to become a contender. Carlton, Brisbane, Gold Coast and the Bulldogs are crying out for a KPF at the moment. Some potential trades could be:

  1. Dawes + #20 + #40 -> Bryce Gibbs + #50
  2. Dawes -> Pearce Hanley
  3. Dawes -> Tom Liberatore
  4. Dawes + #20 -> David Swallow

I am not strongly advocating this move and the trade would have to be fair, but I think it may be necessary to improve our chances in the future.

1. Dawes for Gibbs - you dreaming me thinks - Gibbs is not going to well at the moment. pass.

2. Dawes for Hanley -, couldn't see him wanting to go.

3. Dawes for Liberatore - he's footscray through and through - interested to see what dad would say.

4. Dawes for Swallow - goldcoast would not let him go - too good a player for them.

next four please - these four don't work.

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No, it shows that YOU are the MINORITY because you don't know what you're talking about

Courageous discussion there Curry. And from the safety of the MAJORITY!

Anyway, since when did Chris Dawes become some untouchable Demon hero??

The Dawes trade idea is not a shout-down bad idea. The trade would be stymied by the fact that no club in their right mind would want him for the length of time or the amount of money we have paid him.

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Courageous discussion there Curry. And from the safety of the MAJORITY!

Anyway, since when did Chris Dawes become some untouchable Demon hero??

The Dawes trade idea is not a shout-down bad idea. The trade would be stymied by the fact that no club in their right mind would want him for the length of time or the amount of money we have paid him.

You really think that he is not worth $500k a year until he is 28?

He is a bullocking FF with a great attitude and leadership skills who will provide protection for a star-in-the-making Hogan.

And Watts will never have a solid body like Dawes, nor his penchant for contact.

And Fitzpatrick is a wiry, slight 2m beanpole who may develop into a poor man's Mitch Clark.

There is no chance those two progress past Dawes in 2014 or any point in the life of Dawes' oh-so-terrible contract.

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If Mitch Clark was guaranteed an injury free career going foward, you might slightly entertain the thought of trading Dawes (assuming Fitzpatrick turns out to be a gun), as we badly need a midfielder. But that isn't case at the moment.

I think we're going to have to go down the free agency or state league route for a midfielder. I can't see us trading for one, unless we put pick 2 or 3 on the table.

If Frawley said to the club that he wants to leave at the end of 2014, then I'd trade him this year for a gun midfielder. Clubs would be lining up for his services.

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This has to be a contender for worst thread of the year. Pathetic.

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there is no way Dawes will be traded. So what if he isn't very versatile! We brought him in to be a stay at home fwd and he is doing a good job at that.

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Having depth is a good thing.

Especially when the salary cap isn't bursting at the ie Carlton.

Also why give Carlton what they're aching for, stuff em.

Further, trading Dawes would probably put us at a loss.

I'm undecided what our draft prospects should be, as Tom Boyd is a fwd, though we have an abundance, but perhaps he will take a number of years to be ready, and the future forwards in 4 years or so would be hogan and Boyd.

The other option is to also target another classy midfielder.

It will be interesting.

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Anyway, since when did Chris Dawes become some untouchable Demon hero??

Since the other key forward everybody is spoodging about has played 5 games, whereas Dawes has played as a premiership CHF.

Since the other other key forward hasn't played in almost two years because of an injury which is pretty certain to ensure he will never play seriously again.

Since the other other other key forward is 17, and a fair way off yet from being Nick Riewoldt-eqsue.

Since the other other other other key forward has played 3 semi-decent games in the forward line, after playing a season loose across half back.

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