Jump to content


Recommended Posts

Posted

If we go before the Commission and they strip us of a couple of draft picks for the next year or two cop it on the chin and move on. We already have enough top end draft picks to work with and have mitigated against any penalties somewhat by having Hogan up our sleeve and gaining Viney with F/S. FA will also mitigate any draft picks we lose.

Do you really think that will be the extent of the damage?

Do you not think that being found guilty will have a significant adverse impact on the club's brand, which in turn could lead to issues with sponsorship and other revenue-generating activities?

As Don McL said we need to protect the integrity of the MFC.

  • Like 4

Posted

Do you really think that will be the extent of the damage?

Do you not think that being found guilty will have a significant adverse impact on the club's brand, which in turn could lead to issues with sponsorship and other revenue-generating activities?

As Don McL said we need to protect the integrity of the MFC.

And you think going to court is going to solve that? Our brand has already been adversely impacted going to court won't repair that. At the very best we can hope for is an outcome of insufficient evidence to find we tanked, no way we would be cleared altogether.

Posted

Let's be honest here - everyone knows we tanked, it's only whether it can be proven that is the issue. I don't think we really want to go to court with this at the end of the day and the consequences of a loss are far worse for us than they are for the AFL. If we go before the Commission and they strip us of a couple of draft picks for the next year or two cop it on the chin and move on. We already have enough top end draft picks to work with and have mitigated against any penalties somewhat by having Hogan up our sleeve and gaining Viney with F/S. FA will also mitigate any draft picks we lose.

If we've learnt anything out of this whole debacle it should be that draft picks are not the panacea we thought they were. Sydney haven't had many high draft picks and they've won 2 flags in recent years (COL hasn't really played a factor either). Adelaide haven't had many high draft picks either and they've got a decent squad. Just get on with it and let this club get back to the business of playing footy instead of being about anything but.

Dr everyone knows that we tanked, just as they know that the other clubs tanked, the issue is do the AFL want this to go to court and be forced to investigate those other clubs? I doubt it and let's not forget the MFC has said they will open this matter up. If this comes out in Court the AFL will have no choice other than to open up a wide enquiry in to the whole matter, public opinion will dictate that it does.

On the matter of draft picks, we are not a strong club and let's not get fooled in to thinking that we can cover the loss of two years early draft picks, we've already seen the consequences of this from early this decade. Viney and Hogan will not make up for lost picks, nothing will.

Posted

Under no circumstances can we allow a 'guilty' tag to be administered . Nor really can the AFL .

A reality i suppose is a negotiated peace. But no Guilty .

  • Like 1
Posted

guilty = end of club

the AFL can't afford to loose 2 or maybe more clubs in a week, now that would be more than careless.

Posted

Dr everyone knows that we tanked, just as they know that the other clubs tanked, the issue is do the AFL want this to go to court and be forced to investigate those other clubs? I doubt it and let's not forget the MFC has said they will open this matter up. If this comes out in Court the AFL will have no choice other than to open up a wide enquiry in to the whole matter, public opinion will dictate that it does.

On the matter of draft picks, we are not a strong club and let's not get fooled in to thinking that we can cover the loss of two years early draft picks, we've already seen the consequences of this from early this decade. Viney and Hogan will not make up for lost picks, nothing will.

I don't doubt we've been scapegoated here but I think that's another matter. We are definitely not a strong club (recent years attest to that) but I think there are ways of mitigating the impact of any draft penalties especially with FA now in play. I'm not saying it won't hurt but taking this to court? That would be a far worse outcome for the footy club than just getting on with the job of trying to win games of footy.

If we take it to court it is likely it will overshadow Neeld’s entire career and he will be sent packing without ever having a real chance to show his coaching skills unimpeded by these off-field issues. Then you have the ramifications of any adverse court finding against us.

I don’t believe the AFL has a strong case and we should fight it fervently if it goes to the Commission but we need to weigh things up very carefully before deciding to take on City Hall in the courts.

I think the arguments leaked as “evidence” of our tanking can be ripped to shreds but I’m not confident in the things I’ve heard coming out of the club which would seem we would try to argue the matter on technicalities (e.g. definition of tanking, precedent by other clubs). If we think we will get away with it by dragging others down with us we may want to rethink our strategy very carefully because it is very likely the minute we raise potential tanking by other clubs it will be dismissed. And even if it is not, investigations of other clubs won’t mean a damn thing for us.

We can certainly use these arguments as deterrents to the AFL to press charges but if they call our bluff I think we need to determine what is in the best long term interests of the club and I don’t think a long, drawn-out court battle with dirty laundry being aired, negative media attention impacting our brand and FD (including coaches & players) and backlash from the AFL with a possibility of more severe penalties is really what we want. Now if we suffer further investigation from government bodies due to an adverse finding by the league we may have no other choice than to fight it but I don’t welcome the thought.

Posted

. I don't think we really want to go to court with this at the end of the day and the consequences of a loss are far worse for us than they are for the AFL.

This is where I disagree - a loss is far worse for the AFL as the AFL will (should) be forced by the court definition of what actions constitute tanking to apply the same standard against other teams which participated in the same/similar practices. This would bode badly for Carlton, WCE, Richmond, Collingwood etc.

  • Like 2
Posted

{haha I know why you like waffles now; nice one nutbean}

BH told me in no uncertain manner that I waffle so I thought a change of avatar was appropriate - however I would like to see BH change his avatar to Mark Latham.

  • Like 3

Posted

Assuming (as I do as a bush-lawyer) that the MFC would have a case in court that could allow admitting evidence relating to the AFL's lack of action with respect to other club's tanking, it is a game of bluff. Neither side can want it to go to court, but who would blink first? Even if it is true that the downside is worse for one side than the other, this may be balanced by the probability of winning in the game of bluff.

I think/hope the drug issue will help. If the AFL dropped the tanking issue they would cop some flack, but unless there is a very smoking gun, it must suit them not to have 2+ clubs guilty of bad behaviour. And clearly the drug issue is massive compared to the vague issue of tanking.

I don't think it is worth agonising over whether we should actually take it to court till we know more - charges, evidence etc.

I can imagine a finding of 'guilty' but expressed in such mild terms, with qualifications about the AFL's own guilt in the matter and with such minimal or no penalties that maybe we could live without significant damage to the brand of being found guilty.

Posted

I don't doubt we've been scapegoated here but I think that's another matter. We are definitely not a strong club (recent years attest to that) but I think there are ways of mitigating the impact of any draft penalties especially with FA now in play. I'm not saying it won't hurt but taking this to court? That would be a far worse outcome for the footy club than just getting on with the job of trying to win games of footy.

If we take it to court it is likely it will overshadow Neeld’s entire career and he will be sent packing without ever having a real chance to show his coaching skills unimpeded by these off-field issues. Then you have the ramifications of any adverse court finding against us.

I don’t believe the AFL has a strong case and we should fight it fervently if it goes to the Commission but we need to weigh things up very carefully before deciding to take on City Hall in the courts.

I think the arguments leaked as “evidence” of our tanking can be ripped to shreds but I’m not confident in the things I’ve heard coming out of the club which would seem we would try to argue the matter on technicalities (e.g. definition of tanking, precedent by other clubs). If we think we will get away with it by dragging others down with us we may want to rethink our strategy very carefully because it is very likely the minute we raise potential tanking by other clubs it will be dismissed. And even if it is not, investigations of other clubs won’t mean a damn thing for us.

We can certainly use these arguments as deterrents to the AFL to press charges but if they call our bluff I think we need to determine what is in the best long term interests of the club and I don’t think a long, drawn-out court battle with dirty laundry being aired, negative media attention impacting our brand and FD (including coaches & players) and backlash from the AFL with a possibility of more severe penalties is really what we want. Now if we suffer further investigation from government bodies due to an adverse finding by the league we may have no other choice than to fight it but I don’t welcome the thought.

Yeah....Just run up the white flag and bow to Goliath.....Some times you just have to face your ememies.....Any admission of guilt will bring harsh penalties.....I know you just want this to be over but we at some stage need to stick up for ourselves or forever be the easy beat.....

  • Like 1

Posted

Let's be honest here - everyone knows we tanked, it's only whether it can be proven that is the issue. I don't think we really want to go to court with this at the end of the day and the consequences of a loss are far worse for us than they are for the AFL. If we go before the Commission and they strip us of a couple of draft picks for the next year or two cop it on the chin and move on. We already have enough top end draft picks to work with and have mitigated against any penalties somewhat by having Hogan up our sleeve and gaining Viney with F/S. FA will also mitigate any draft picks we lose.

If we've learnt anything out of this whole debacle it should be that draft picks are not the panacea we thought they were. Sydney haven't had many high draft picks and they've won 2 flags in recent years (COL hasn't really played a factor either). Adelaide haven't had many high draft picks either and they've got a decent squad. Just get on with it and let this club get back to the business of playing footy instead of being about anything but.

so what you are saying in reality is that you are happy for the club to accept guilt to a bunch of very flimsy laws, to Roll Over to the AFL punishment and forever be labelled a cheat.

That is not the team i want to follow.

I want my club to fight for its place on & off the field Dr. G.

  • Like 1
Posted

Must disagree with those who say most fans want us punished.

Those I talk to say we did nothing others have not done, and that any club in our spot would have done the same.

They also suggest the AFL is at fault for creating the system.

Meanwhile Jay Clark tweets that CC had a long day at AFL HQ yesterday.

First movement of any sort for almost two weeks.

Who knows what it means but Clark says it would be a shame to see CC scapegoated.

  • Like 1
Posted

An adverse finding would jeopardise our bentleigh pokies licence which gave us $5m of revenue last year.

And adverse finding and protracted court case would stuff our club for some time and be bad for the AFL.

The AFL doesn't want or need this,.........

  • Like 1
Posted

Yeah....Just run up the white flag and bow to Goliath.....Some times you just have to face your ememies.....Any admission of guilt will bring harsh penalties.....I know you just want this to be over but we at some stage need to stick up for ourselves or forever be the easy beat.....

Do you think we tanked in 2009?

Posted

Do you think we tanked in 2009?

This may be too paradoxical for some, but it is possible to think we tanked in 2009 and at the same time believe we are not guilty of an ill-defined charge of tanking.

  • Like 4

Posted

Do you think we tanked in 2009?

Unequivocally, the answer is no, I do not think we "tanked". I believe we simply operated within a system which was conceived and had life breathed into it by the AFL itself. It was a system put in place that we and others AFL teams used to its greatest affect available at that time.

  • Like 2
Posted

Do you think we tanked in 2009?

It doesn't matter what I think Dr......It's what the AFL can or can't prove...

If Coll'wood,Carlton,Richmond were being investigated....Do you reckon they would just 'roll over'??????

You would hear the yells of foul play drown out a grand final crowd and they would go down fighting

Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.....

Posted (edited)

Thousands of clubs in a stack of sports have 'List managed' for over 100 years. Describing what we did in 2009 as tanking has sinister connotations for a few reasons. Not the least being that tanking can equate to match fixing.

Tanking doesn't have a clear definitive meaning so therefore shouldn't be used as a description for what we did in 2009.

Edit : Spelling and grammar (I blame the phone)

Edited by Macca
  • Like 3
Posted

Unequivocally, the answer is no, I do not think we "tanked". I believe we simply operated within a system which was conceived and had life breathed into it by the AFL itself. It was a system put in place that we and others AFL teams used to its greatest affect available at that time.

So how did we "operate" within the system. If it was by ensuring we qualified for a PP by not winning more than 4.5 games then we tanked.

It doesn't matter what I think Dr......It's what the AFL can or can't prove...

If Coll'wood,Carlton,Richmond were being investigated....Do you reckon they would just 'roll over'??????

You would hear the yells of foul play drown out a grand final crowd and they would go down fighting

Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.....

I appreciate the sentiment and to some extent I agree but in the long run I think it will be even more detrimental to the club to try and fight this in court.

This may be too paradoxical for some, but it is possible to think we tanked in 2009 and at the same time believe we are not guilty of an ill-defined charge of tanking.

That's where I sit at the moment. I think we should fight the charges fervently before the Commission (should we be charged) and rip the ridiculous arguments apart one by one. Although I'd probably lean mroe towards there being insufficient evidence rather than a mere "not guilty".

coz you are sounding like a broken record

i'm sure you can be more original if you try

Uh huh - OK whatever you want to think. I'm not happy with the whole situation, I think we've been scapegoated and have done nothing other clubs have not also done. I also think the AFL basically gave tacit approval of tanking in the years before we did it. But that doesn't mean we didn't do it.

By the way I haven't commented on this thread until the last page or so so fail to see how I could be a "broken record". I'm hurting as much as we all are at the moment but I don't want to see the club crippled beyond repair by trying to fight this in the courts when at the end of the day everyone knows our goal in 2009 was to get the PP. I'm not going to hang the admin for doing that as if they didn't the supporters would have been furious especially after what had gone down in the years prior. But if we are exposed then we need to cop our medicine regardless of what happens to other clubs. It's not fair but life rarely is, all we can do is put all our focus into winning games of footy instead of fighting the AFL in the courts.

Posted

At the very best we can hope for is an outcome of insufficient evidence to find we tanked, no way we would be cleared altogether.

If there is insufficient evidence that we 'tanked', then why wouldn't we be cleared altogether?

You can't be half guilty of breaching the 'tanking' rule.

  • Like 1
Posted

Jesus christ Dr, where have you been?

Go and read the thread and you will a rebuttal for everything you have written and a whole heap of things you are about to write.

Posted

Jesus christ Dr, where have you been?

Go and read the thread and you will a rebuttal for everything you have written and a whole heap of things you are about to write.

Sorry mate it took me 15 minutes.

Can I help?

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Demonland Forums  

  • Match Previews, Reports & Articles  

    TRAINING: Friday 22nd November 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers were out in force on a scorching morning out at Gosch's Paddock for the final session before the whole squad reunites for the Preseason Training Camp. DEMONLAND'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS It’s going to be a scorcher today but I’m in the shade at Gosch’s Paddock ready to bring you some observations from the final session before the Preseason Training Camp next week.  Salem, Fritsch & Campbell are already on the track. Still no number on Campbell’s

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports 2

    UP IN LIGHTS by Whispering Jack

    Those who watched the 2024 Marsh AFL National Championships closely this year would not be particularly surprised that Melbourne selected Victoria Country pair Harvey Langford and Xavier Lindsay on the first night of the AFL National Draft. The two left-footed midfielders are as different as chalk and cheese but they had similar impacts in their Coates Talent League teams and in the National Championships in 2024. Their interstate side was edged out at the very end of the tournament for tea

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Special Features

    TRAINING: Wednesday 20th November 2024

    It’s a beautiful cool morning down at Gosch’s Paddock and I’ve arrived early to bring you my observations from today’s session. DEMONLAND'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS Reigning Keith Bluey Truscott champion Jack Viney is the first one out on the track.  Jack’s wearing the red version of the new training guernsey which is the only version available for sale at the Demon Shop. TRAINING: Viney, Clarry, Lever, TMac, Rivers, Petty, McVee, Bowey, JVR, Hore, Tom Campbell (in tr

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    TRAINING: Monday 18th November 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers ventured down to Gosch's Paddock for the final week of training for the 1st to 4th Years until they are joined by the rest of the senior squad for Preseason Training Camp in Mansfield next week. WAYNE RUSSELL'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS No Ollie, Chin, Riv today, but Rick & Spargs turned up and McDonald was there in casual attire. Seston, and Howes did a lot of boundary running, and Tom Campbell continued his work with individual trainer in non-MFC

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    2024 Player Reviews: #11 Max Gawn

    Champion ruckman and brilliant leader, Max Gawn earned his seventh All-Australian team blazer and constantly held the team up on his shoulders in what was truly a difficult season for the Demons. Date of Birth: 30 December 1991 Height: 209cm Games MFC 2024: 21 Career Total: 224 Goals MFC 2024: 11 Career Total: 109 Brownlow Medal Votes: 13 Melbourne Football Club: 2nd Best & Fairest: 405 votes

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 12

    2024 Player Reviews: #36 Kysaiah Pickett

    The Demons’ aggressive small forward who kicks goals and defends the Demons’ ball in the forward arc. When he’s on song, he’s unstoppable but he did blot his copybook with a three week suspension in the final round. Date of Birth: 2 June 2001 Height: 171cm Games MFC 2024: 21 Career Total: 106 Goals MFC 2024: 36 Career Total: 161 Brownlow Medal Votes: 3 Melbourne Football Club: 4th Best & Fairest: 369 votes

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 5

    TRAINING: Friday 15th November 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers took advantage of the beautiful sunshine to head down to Gosch's Paddock and witness the return of Clayton Oliver to club for his first session in the lead up to the 2025 season. DEMONLAND'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS Clarry in the house!! Training: JVR, McVee, Windsor, Tholstrup, Woey, Brown, Petty, Adams, Chandler, Turner, Bowey, Seston, Kentfield, Laurie, Sparrow, Viney, Rivers, Jefferson, Hore, Howes, Verrall, AMW, Clarry Tom Campbell is here

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    2024 Player Reviews: #7 Jack Viney

    The tough on baller won his second Keith 'Bluey' Truscott Trophy in a narrow battle with skipper Max Gawn and Alex Neal-Bullen and battled on manfully in the face of a number of injury niggles. Date of Birth: 13 April 1994 Height: 178cm Games MFC 2024: 23 Career Total: 219 Goals MFC 2024: 10 Career Total: 66 Brownlow Medal Votes: 8

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 3

    TRAINING: Wednesday 13th November 2024

    A couple of Demonland Trackwatchers braved the rain and headed down to Gosch's paddock to bring you their observations from the second day of Preseason training for the 1st to 4th Year players. DITCHA'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS I attended some of the training today. Richo spoke to me and said not to believe what is in the media, as we will good this year. Jefferson and Kentfield looked big and strong.  Petty was doing all the training. Adams looked like he was in rehab.  KE

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports
  • Tell a friend

    Love Demonland? Tell a friend!

×
×
  • Create New...