AFL investigation

[GM11 776]

How the hatred shines through, no matter what the issue.

[hoopla 418]

Well reasoned. But I find it hard to believe that anyone who was interviewed would have raised the issue of Watts not playing enough. Anyone who did would be totally ignorant of footy (so no reason to interview them) or were digging a hole for the investigators or they were being malicious (but stupid). None of these seem very plausible.

Absolutely correct ........ unless of course they put Jack's Mum on to a polygraph

[hoopla 418]

Great post. And those persons who made monumental stuff ups have the audacity to now push the culture change mantra and blame everyone else but themselves for their incompetance. They have destroyed the next eneration of our young players and sucked the soul out of the rest. And too many here gloat at the delusion that we will outsmart the AFL whilst we grovel at the bottom.

Nonsense. This rivals your "great post" - as the biggest load of cobblers I have read for a long time.

The club has faced its problems - and is working damn hard to get itself off the bottom. Get into a time machine - and stay aboard until you reach January 2013.

[hoopla 418]

The people who put that plan in place need to be held accountable for it. And in a perverse sort of way I hope they are booted out of football for ever. In Schwab's case it should have been when he got done for breaching the salary cap when Gutnick was president.

At least get your facts right. We can't boot out the whole 2009 football department - because we don't employ them anymore. As for Schwab and the salary cap - it is by no means clear that we breached anything. Gutnick grabbed a discussion paper jumped on his white horse and raced off to the AFL without checking the facts.Don't believe everything you read in the papers! Move on

[beelzebub 23,364]

He can't

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Passionate Melb supporter Angry. Member since mid 80s. Been to over 450 games. Just think we need some perspective. I don't blindly follow what the club tells me. We made poor decisions that impacted on the culture of the club. In 2009 we were so excited about the possibility of getting a priority pick. FFS, our fans cheered when McMahon kicked that winning goal! We celebrated on Demonland! I find it weird that now we get all defensive when the AFL has a crack at us. We all knew what we doing was against the spirit of the game. It doesn't matter whether other clubs did it also. Perhaps they had a better culture in place? My point is by doing this, it gave the players an 'out'. A reason not to go 100 percent. Combine that with exiting leaders such as McDonald, Bruce etc and we become rudderless. The people who put that plan in place need to be held accountable for it. And in a perverse sort of way I hope they are booted out of football for ever. In Schwab's case it should have been when he got done for breaching the salary cap when Gutnick was president.

Bruce a leader?

You mean the player that trotted out the usual "we didn't come to play today" or "the boys didn't bring their A grade game today" after we'd suffered another embarrassing loss? If you want to rely on him as one of your leaders no wonder you have low expectations of the club.

I notice that you have left out the other players you originally labeled as leaders, I'm surprised you didn't include Maric. We were rudderless long before we exited the players you mentioned.

[mjt 640]

Do you seriously believe that our club's culture deteriorated under Schwab, who by the way didn't employ Bailey?

We have been so bad for so long it's a joke but you want to sheet all the blame to a couple of people. Lets also remember that the players you mentioned may have played in finals but realistically we were there to make up the numbers and didn't stand a chance of winning a flag.

Have a look at the difference between us and the three other clubs you mentioned and if you can't spot that difference then you're stupid.

Our clubs culture never recovered after Daniher left, its as simple as that, i often wonder if ND would have coached like DB in 2009.

[mjt 640]

Pardon me if this piece of tunnel vision journalism has been discussed somewhere else but it's so hard to keep up with things these days:Tank or no tank, Dees sunk

Certainly the cost and expense of this very selective investigation into the alleged tanking practices of one club will not be insubstantial and may well end up being taken into account when a final outcome is reached but Pierik obviously isn't aware of the capacity of sportspersons and sporting clubs to rise to the occasion in times of adversity.

When I arrived in Sydney this morning it was to the news that 20 year old Bernard Tomic is the flavour of the month after winning a major tennis tournament here on the eve of the Australian Open. Hard to believe that it was just four months ago that the pundits were claiming his career was over after allegations that he "tanked" a series of matches.

I have a feeling the club will make a similar comeback from this travesty of a farce - it's the best way to answer our detractors.

Winners are grinners WJ, i said that earlier in this thread, just look at the kangaroos, we need to come out this year and win 9 games, if we come out and have a similar season to last year this clubs finished.

[mjt 640]

We did not stray from the AFL's rules. We used a system that they set in place to our advantage like many before us. This isn't cheating it's being smart.

I resort to personal abuse because I've had it up to here with people who are supposedly supporters sticking the boots in. It's worse than outsiders taking pot-shots because you should know better. The fact that you don't says a bit about your mental capacity. Don't shoot the messenger because it's just a straight up fact

Your mental capacity is pathetic.

[loges 6,767]

Great post. And those persons who made monumental stuff ups have the audacity to now push the culture change mantra and blame everyone else but themselves for their incompetance. They have destroyed the next eneration of our young players and sucked the soul out of the rest. And too many here gloat at the delusion that we will outsmart the AFL whilst we grovel at the bottom.

You are a very sad person, you're at war with Schwab, Connolly & whoever else you hold a grudge against at Melbourne. Problem is your collateral damage - The Melbourne Football Club

[diesel 420]

Passionate Melb supporter Angry. Member since mid 80s. Been to over 450 games. Just think we need some perspective. I don't blindly follow what the club tells me. We made poor decisions that impacted on the culture of the club. In 2009 we were so excited about the possibility of getting a priority pick. FFS, our fans cheered when McMahon kicked that winning goal! We celebrated on Demonland! I find it weird that now we get all defensive when the AFL has a crack at us. We all knew what we doing was against the spirit of the game. It doesn't matter whether other clubs did it also. Perhaps they had a better culture in place? My point is by doing this, it gave the players an 'out'. A reason not to go 100 percent. Combine that with exiting leaders such as McDonald, Bruce etc and we become rudderless. The people who put that plan in place need to be held accountable for it. And in a perverse sort of way I hope they are booted out of football for ever. In Schwab's case it should have been when he got done for breaching the salary cap when Gutnick was president.

Obviously not. You don't put any stock in the fact that we have been crap since '06 (and up and down before that) through a combination of factors including an under-resourced FD, poor recruiting, lack of professionalism by some players and administrations who were asleep at the wheel, waiting for the next AFL handout. You reckon it's all down to a few blokes and a plan to bottom out. Why then have Collingwood and Hawthorn won flags while we're sputtering? In '09, the season which the AFL focuses on there was a perfect storm of events at the MFC which were the making of some personalities but also to a large extent a result of outside forces. It's folly to suggest that that a few people were responsible and their heads would serve to right everything, in fact it would set us back a number of years.

Instead of preaching about perspective (yours is evidently narrow) have a lateral think about where the MFC has been and is now at and who has been pulling the strings in this whole 'tanking' saga.

[DeeZee 7,392]

Nick Maxwell on SEN just said how ridiculous he thinks it is that the AFL open an investigation as big as this based on a knee jerk reaction to disgruntled ex player Brock Mcleans comments on a television show.

[daisycutter 29,613]

nice to see all the sado-masochists emerging from the woodwork at the smell of blood

like zombies in the dawn of the dead

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,754]

The fact the AFL brought in a special department to deal with integrity says it all. What other organisation has ever had to bring in a department that deals with integrity? The AFL has none, hence the need to bring in such a farcical department. If the AFL had any integrity in the first place they would be showing it through their actions with a fair & even fixture, even drafts, even player payments, even stadium deals etc etc. I could go on but you get the jist. This whole saga pretty much sums up everything that is wrong with the AFL at the moment. The founding club gets potentially hung out to dry whilst the AFL allows every other inequity in the game to continue.

As a club I think the MFC put up with a fair bit, yes the club is to blame in many ways for its current predicament. Over the years we have not done everything as a club to get back to where we need to be for whatever reason. However it would be a bitter pill to swallow if anything were to come of this investigation. Personally I don't think anything will come of it as it is too hard to even define tanking as many previous posters have stated. Also the AFL really wouldn't want to open Pandora's box. I know this is going to sound emotive to many but if heavy sanctions were to come of this investigation I'd personally have to consider whether investing time & money into something which is so clearly unequal & unfair is really worth it anymore. I suppose it comes back to the thing that draws us all to follow a footy club & that is hope of one day reaching the ultimate. If the club were to carry the can for something every other club has done I think that would be it for me. If the club is sanctioned in anyway I hope they draw a line in the sand for the sake of the game.

I think you'll find every professional sporting organisation now has an integrity department. The two greatest threats to each professional sports' existence are performance enhancing drugs and corruption linked to betting. Integrity departments are needed to ensure sports don't allow these misdeeds to damage their sport. They don't always do a good job (think professional cycling) but they are necessary.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

It's fast becoming a joke now; we are getting a mention in just about every article that deals with on or offield bad behaviour, this is supposed to be about Lake but they work us in to it as well.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/star-hawthorn-recruit-brian-lake-issed-infringement-notice-after-drinking-heavily-in-sorrento/story-fnat79vb-1226552981484

A group of Melbourne players was involved in an ugly spat with fans during the Boxing Day Test.

A decision into the Melbourne tanking allegations

[Dr John Dee 1,057]

1. A properly conducted investigation will produce a report which should include all material collated during the investigation. Whether the information helps or hinders the argument (from either perspective) is irrelevant. It should be included.

2. 800 to 1000 pages is not necessarily a long report if transcripts of each interview are included. 25 people by 30 pages per double spaced transcript equal 750 pages.

3. Any references to whether Jack Watts should or should not have been played may not have been raised by the investigators but by one of the individuals interviewed. As such, it should remain in the report whatever the investigators think.

4. Procedural fairness suggests that the investigators findings should be presented to the club before it is reviewed by the ultimate decision makers. In this way, there is less chance of bias (or perceived bias) in the final decision. I wouldn't want the AFL hierarchy reading anything that the investigators have collected until after the club has filed its response.

In short, it all looks like it's being conducted properly to me. And nothing can be assumed to be right or wrong (by the AFL, the media or by us supporters) until the process has been completed.

That's a more than effective summary of the steps involved in any properly conducted investigation and report. The only qualification I'd offer is that there's no way the report has been sent to the MFC without Anderson and perhaps Demetriou having read at least a summary of findings (hopefully these are so threadbare that it won't have taken long to read anyway). But since, as you say, the important factor here is the ultimate decision makers, and that's the Commission itself, there's no undermining of procedural fairness in that.

(sorry for digging this issue up now; I'd have posted something earlier but it got so hot here yesterday that the modem shut down).

[Sir Why You Little 37,034]

Winners are grinners WJ, i said that earlier in this thread, just look at the kangaroos, we need to come out this year and win 9 games, if we come out and have a similar season to last year this clubs finished.

interesting comment this one.

I tend to agree.

This old girl the MFC has been kicked and maltreated in many ways since '64.

Thus the organization has become timid & desperate for results.

At some stage the entire club must take the big jump..either learn to swim strongly or sink.

[stranga 328]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but I heard an 'amusing' comment from Rohan Connely, speaking on SEN yesterday afternoon, regarding the tanking. While he admits there isn't much concrete evidence against us he thinks some proof that we tanked is the fact that 'we were able to belt Fremantle in round 20' but lose every other game. I'm just finding it very strange how you can now be accused of tanking because you win a game! I'm sorry Rohan that we didn't do as good a job of it as Carlton and Collingwood did a few years earlier and lose the last 10 games of the season.

[Hannibal 5,814]

I resort to personal abuse because I've had it up to here with people who are supposedly supporters sticking the boots in. It's worse than outsiders taking pot-shots because you should know better.

So supporters can have an opinion, but only if that opinion is in line with yours and the "masses' on here ?

[Slartibartfast 17,265]

that reveal wont happen until Caro is back in her chair.

I expect a confession or a written proof of collusion.

Are we guilty? Of course. Are others? Yep. Will we get pinged? Yes.

It's why I can't wait for Caro to get back because she will at least give us some insight into what the AFL is thinking on this issue. The factual accounts in the press tell us what's in the report but little else.

Frankie I think there is a second boot but I'm not sure it will fall. A very good view was put to me by another poster. He said that if the leaks are by MFC alone then it's unlikely there is a "smoking gun" and if the leaks are agreed between the AFL and MFC then it's a carefully orchestrated process to lead to a "no case to answer" scenario. This makes sense to me, particularly the second part as I doubt MFC would leak info whilst we are in negotiations with the AFL.

The cold, hard facts are we tanked. We can curse Caro, Brock McLean or any other person that has a crack at us, but why bother?

dee-tox very good and thoughtful posting treated the way most scared little bunnies react when they see something threatening - you just get attacked by the mob. I liked your comments on us not wanting to do things the hard way. It hit a cord with me but in fairness to those that instituted our tanking it was just following AFL approved best practice. That we were inept in the way we did it is another question but the reality is we've been inept in the way we've managed so much under this administration including tanking, dismissing Junior, selecting the coach and dismissing Bailey. All of these poorly managed administrative manners have hurt us apart from the appointment of Neeld IMO but the process of his appointment was shoddy.

[daisycutter 29,613]

It's why I can't wait for Caro to get back because she will at least give us some insight into what the AFL is thinking on this issue. The factual accounts in the press tell us what's in the report but little else.

yeah more great revealing stuff like ashen-faced executives lurching about after games...........can't wait

[Bonkers 994]

I think you'll find every professional sporting organisation now has an integrity department. The two greatest threats to each professional sports' existence are performance enhancing drugs and corruption linked to betting. Integrity departments are needed to ensure sports don't allow these misdeeds to damage their sport. They don't always do a good job (think professional cycling) but they are necessary.

In Australia I'm pretty sure integrity departments are limited to government, policing & racing. Currently the AFL & possibly the NRL ( for betting only) are the only sporting codes with an integrity department. They are quite often set up by government to review departments or industries that have issues with corruption. Setting up a department to deal with corruption in your own organisation is a recipe for disaster in my opinion as there will always be hidden agendas.

You raised betting & drugs. Have a look at the way the AFL has handled there drug policy, it's border line corrupt & is certainly non transparent. In relation to betting there is an influx of betting companies into the market which will provide more issues you are right. Do you think the AFL will have the right policies & procedures to counter this? IMO countering corruption first comes from good governance. Simply the AFL is not good at this, it is more concerned with pushing its own agenda & the dollar ultimately. If the integrity department was legitimate we would see a review into tanking in general throughout the AFL. We will never see that. This so called integrity department will only ever reveal what the AFL wants it to reveal. The rest will be swept under the carpet, there is no integrity in that.

[H_T 3,043]

It's why I can't wait for Caro to get back because she will at least give us some insight into what the AFL is thinking on this issue. The factual accounts in the press tell us what's in the report but little else.

I'm actually looking forward to her return now...

Frankie I think there is a second boot but I'm not sure it will fall. A very good view was put to me by another poster. He said that if the leaks are by MFC alone then it's unlikely there is a "smoking gun" and if the leaks are agreed between the AFL and MFC then it's a carefully orchestrated process to lead to a "no case to answer" scenario. This makes sense to me, particularly the second part as I doubt MFC would leak info whilst we are in negotiations with the AFL.

If this is the case Fan, (and it makes sense to me too), all submitted suggested charges that need to be answered would have to be dropped if there is a "no case to answer" I would assume. And those singled out would likely be in the clear. Would you agree?

[daisycutter 29,613]

In Australia I'm pretty sure integrity departments are limited to government, policing & racing. Currently the AFL & possibly the NRL ( for betting only) are the only sporting codes with an integrity department. They are quite often set up by government to review departments or industries that have issues with corruption. Setting up a department to deal with corruption in your own organisation is a recipe for disaster in my opinion as there will always be hidden agendas.

You raised betting & drugs. Have a look at the way the AFL has handled there drug policy, it's border line corrupt & is certainly non transparent. In relation to betting there is an influx of betting companies into the market which will provide more issues you are right. Do you think the AFL will have the right policies & procedures to counter this? IMO countering corruption first comes from good governance. Simply the AFL is not good at this, it is more concerned with pushing its own agenda & the dollar ultimately. If the integrity department was legitimate we would see a review into tanking in general throughout the AFL. We will never see that. This so called integrity department will only ever reveal what the AFL wants it to reveal. The rest will be swept under the carpet, there is no integrity in that.

yes, its a bit like the police running a corruption inquiry into the police.

lacks genuine independence and tends to be self-serving

[Guest]

I reckon you are 3/4 of the way of where you need to be DeeTox. I dead set agree with you about what 'list management' did to the club (though you do have some of your dates mixed up). I have said it before and will say it again now. Getting those picks was viewed as not a mean but an end. We got these poor kids into the club, put no work into them and expected them to become Gary Ablett/Kevin Bartlett/Wayne Carey. It also allowed people to rest on their laurels as the club, the media and all the hangers on reassured them that they would be the next big thing. Not to mention that it seems morally repugnant to put a cap on how well you can play in order to get some reward at the end of the day. You get rewarded for winning, not failing. At least that's what I was always taught.

Where I don't agree with you is that we should be overly condemned because of this. In order to be punished, one needs to have broken a rule. As far as I can tell, no rule exists to say you can't pick your team on your merits. When the club had been found out breaching the salary cap in 1999, I accepted the club deserved a whack. Rules had been laid out and the club had broken them. Now, the AFL has put a system in place that can give clubs incentives for losing (if their season is forgone relatively early), doesn't lay out rules so the system isn't abused and then turns around and targets one club. It stinks.
Don't get me started on how the investigation has been conducted either (i.e. stopping tape recorders and verballing people, Jack Watts)