AFL investigation

[Whispering_Jack 30,054]

Pardon me if this piece of tunnel vision journalism has been discussed somewhere else but it's so hard to keep up with things these days:Tank or no tank, Dees sunk

Certainly the cost and expense of this very selective investigation into the alleged tanking practices of one club will not be insubstantial and may well end up being taken into account when a final outcome is reached but Pierik obviously isn't aware of the capacity of sportspersons and sporting clubs to rise to the occasion in times of adversity.

When I arrived in Sydney this morning it was to the news that 20 year old Bernard Tomic is the flavour of the month after winning a major tennis tournament here on the eve of the Australian Open. Hard to believe that it was just four months ago that the pundits were claiming his career was over after allegations that he "tanked" a series of matches.

I have a feeling the club will make a similar comeback from this travesty of a farce - it's the best way to answer our detractors.

[Forest Demon 4,681]

I liked the line, 'Connolly said, perhaps joking "the Zulus will get you"...really, you think that was 'perhaps' said in jest. Anyone who delivered that line to me seriously would be greeted with laughter.

And the Watts implication is simply the stupidest thing I have heard in regards to the investigation, and it had some stiff competition.

[dee-tox 4,835]

Do you seriously believe that our club's culture deteriorated under Schwab, who by the way didn't employ Bailey?

We have been so bad for so long it's a joke but you want to sheet all the blame to a couple of people. Lets also remember that the players you mentioned may have played in finals but realistically we were there to make up the numbers and didn't stand a chance of winning a flag.

Have a look at the difference between us and the three other clubs you mentioned and if you can't spot that difference then you're stupid.

Robbie F, you can call me stupid etc, it just reflects how delusional you are. How little you know about sport and how little you know about people.

And while we're at it, don't you find it ironic, that your username Robbie Flower, played with heart, integrity and loyalty. While what we saw under with Bailey, with Schwab pulling the strings was exact opposite?

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

Can we sue for damages when all is said and done? We're struggling enough as it is, don't need this extra pressure!

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

Robbie F, you can call me stupid etc, it just reflects how delusional you are. How little you know about sport and how little you know about people.

And while we're at it, don't you find it ironic, that your username Robbie Flower, played with heart, integrity and loyalty. While what we saw under with Bailey, with Schwab pulling the strings was exact opposite?

Enlighten us then. Tell us about sports and people.

Do you know anything about list managment and future planning?

I bet not.

[dee-tox 4,835]

Lol

Do you even know what Tanking is?

Because you sound like a fool.

We didn't tank. We put development ahead of ladder position. It's called planning for the future idiot.

People like you get on your high horse and try to denigrate the club for doing what needed to be done for our future. Your view is too narrow to see this, or it is obstructed by hidden agendas.

The people that actually want the club to do well long term opened this list management era with open arms. You probably did too at the time, but now to suit your ignorant short sighted new sense of morality surrounding the issue you frown upon it.

What kind of supporter are you? Moron.

So I'm a moron, a fool and an idiot! Well another delusional backslapper that thinks deliberately trying to lose doesn't impact on a club. The record speaks for itself.

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

So I'm a moron, a fool and an idiot!

Glad we agree on something.

And I'm pretty sure we didn't deliberately try to lose, it just happened naturally. You can add another adjective to the few you just described yourself as; dense.

[Courtney_Fish 183]

Sorry if this has been said before but there's too much for me to read on this thread. When I read about Watts only having 3 games in his 1st year being evidence of tanking I nearly soiled my panties laughing. I really don't know what the avg non-Demon supporter would think of this but it is soooo ludicrous. I think when they send back the reply saying why they shouldn't be charged, just say "Because we'll take you to court!". Obviously I don't know what exactly is in the 800 pages but it's for the AFL to say why we should be charged not for us to say why we shouldn't; should we make up the charges for them and give our defence before charges are made?

Brett Clothier and Abraham Haddad, didn't I see their names listed for the fringe festival, previously with Stalin's NKVD?

[PJ_12345 1,098]

The latest article really shows how poor the AFLs attack is getting, FFS they have resorted to arguing about how an injured , first year player still in VCE only played a handfull of games...

I can't wait till this joke is over... Hopefully before the Zulus get here

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

When I read about Watts only having 3 games in his 1st year being evidence of tanking I nearly soiled my panties laughing.

I took offense to it.

Every man and his dog got stuck into Watts for not tearing the comp up as a skinny teenager. At the time we were scrutinized for playing him too early. Up until this day many people regard him as a failed 1st draft pick which is so unfair as the kid has no control what draft pick he's aligned with. And to suit some weird twisted set of rationale now not playing this "NQR" is proof of tanking?

If that's their evidence it is comedy hour!

[dee-tox 4,835]

Sloonie, no wonder you want to resort to personal abuse, you keep defending the indefensible. Try and think objectively. We tried to cheat. We wanted the easy way. We acted without integrity. We thought getting the second best junior in the land would solve all our peoblems. It didn't work. It just further weakened a poor club culture. We made our bed and now we have to lie in it. Shooting the messenger (the AFL, Caro, Brock McLean, whoever)is just delusional.

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

We did not stray from the AFL's rules. We used a system that they set in place to our advantage like many before us. This isn't cheating it's being smart.

I resort to personal abuse because I've had it up to here with people who are supposedly supporters sticking the boots in. It's worse than outsiders taking pot-shots because you should know better. The fact that you don't says a bit about your mental capacity. Don't shoot the messenger because it's just a straight up fact

[diesel 420]

OK I've got no idea!

Keep up the delusion. Tanking has ripped apart the fabric of the club. That's one of the main reasons we have performed so badly since 2006. Most (astute) posters on this site know we tanked. But no-one looks at the impact decisions like these have on professional sportsmen. No different to Pakistani cricketers fixing matches. Any excuse not to perform at 100 percent has catastrophic implications that permeate through your whole club.

In terms of a professional operation at the FD level the MFC was a rank amateur organisation. Therein lies the real reason why we haven't developed talent and have been on a downward spiral since '06. Blame 'tanking' if you like. How is that Hawthorn and Collingwood went on to win flags after 'tanking? To blame where we are on 'tanking' is a fairly obvious option for the lazy journo, opposition supporter or disenfranchised ex MFC employee.

Let me turn your Pakistan Cricketer analogy in a differection. In professional sports in the US what the MFC has done would be openly expected and supported by all in that organisation and by those who support it. Why? Because they are professional, the MFC has not been!

[dee-luded 2,959]

The cold, hard facts are we tanked. We can curse Caro, Brock McLean or any other person that has a crack at us, but why bother?

Such a decision, and it was a deliberate choice, has made us the laughing stock of the competition. It exposed us as a lazy club. One not willing to do the hard work (within the rules and spirit of the game)necessary to get back up the ladder. It has exposed our CEO as a two-time cheat. It has exposed the model that Schwab put forward in his Whiteboard Wednesday series as horribly flawed. It forgot that leaders such as McDonald, Bruce, Mclean (three best in our last finals win), even Miller and Johnstone could guide a new generation back up the ladder. We wanted an easier way, one without integrity, proper leadership and hard work.

Tanking gave the players an excuse. An excuse not to perform. And such a mindset becomes ingrained in your culture. Sportsmen shouldn't be given a reason not to perform at 100 percent. Is it any wonder that we curse that the likes of Sylvia have not come on as players?

the excuse of not performing & doing the hard physical footy acts had been missing since the late 90's at least. So the poor culture was alive and well at the time of Daniher starting & possibly before that.

The pity is we didn't go after Matthews when he was available late 90's.

He may have straitened out the culture.

It did Not start with bailey, he inherited it, but its going to end after his tenure.

Neeld is no fool. & its the first thing he's undertaken to do.... & didn't it cause some ruffles. much protest & sulking.

the list managing wasn't our problem, the way it was organised was poorly thought out...

[Bonkers 994]

The "Integrity Department" of the AFL are very obviously the ones who are tanking.

Maybe as these two clowns were obviously such poor draft choices for the "Integrity Inquisition Department" they are hoping for higher picks next time around. Do they get priority picks.

Seriously, if they want us to answer why Watts wasn't player more in his first season why not actually ask just about any impartial observer who has ever actually seen a footy game. The clowns seem not to have done so.

Maybe they are tanking for a replacement for Misfit as well - clearly he was a far worse pick than 426 was for us.

In fact, Misfit, Clothier and Haddad make our Bailey/ Cameron era drafting look actually first rate.

The fact the AFL brought in a special department to deal with integrity says it all. What other organisation has ever had to bring in a department that deals with integrity? The AFL has none, hence the need to bring in such a farcical department. If the AFL had any integrity in the first place they would be showing it through their actions with a fair & even fixture, even drafts, even player payments, even stadium deals etc etc. I could go on but you get the jist. This whole saga pretty much sums up everything that is wrong with the AFL at the moment. The founding club gets potentially hung out to dry whilst the AFL allows every other inequity in the game to continue.

As a club I think the MFC put up with a fair bit, yes the club is to blame in many ways for its current predicament. Over the years we have not done everything as a club to get back to where we need to be for whatever reason. However it would be a bitter pill to swallow if anything were to come of this investigation. Personally I don't think anything will come of it as it is too hard to even define tanking as many previous posters have stated. Also the AFL really wouldn't want to open Pandora's box. I know this is going to sound emotive to many but if heavy sanctions were to come of this investigation I'd personally have to consider whether investing time & money into something which is so clearly unequal & unfair is really worth it anymore. I suppose it comes back to the thing that draws us all to follow a footy club & that is hope of one day reaching the ultimate. If the club were to carry the can for something every other club has done I think that would be it for me. If the club is sanctioned in anyway I hope they draw a line in the sand for the sake of the game.

[dee-luded 2,959]

OK I've got no idea!

Keep up the delusion. Tanking has ripped apart the fabric of the club. That's one of the main reasons we have performed so badly since 2006. Most (astute) posters on this site know we tanked. But no-one looks at the impact decisions like these have on professional sportsmen. No different to Pakistani cricketers fixing matches. Any excuse not to perform at 100 percent has catastrophic implications that permeate through your whole club.

you've gone off clearly 2 years to early... a bit prem there dee-tox...and blind as well? hmmm?

If you'd been watching us for a long time, you would notice that we lost our hardness in the 90's sometime. I can't be certain exactly which year because at that time I had stopped following footy altogether, for reasons, including family loss etc.

But I slowly picked the game back up again just watching, but without analysing it... just a supporter without a critical eye over the club.

Around 2004/5 I started getting bothered by our lack of top players & was starting to realise our better footballers weren't "going in".

starting to think back & reflect on the way our boys had played previous years, I started to see the decline had in fact started prior to the 2000 GF... no doubt the bombers took us to task, as they new it was our Achilles Heal.

we had none after Schwatrz & Neitz to fly the flag & neither were hard hit men.

So, for you to say the list managing has killed our culture & hard at the ball ways is just plain wrong & one eyed & short sighted.

[Macca 16,965]

Sloonie, no wonder you want to resort to personal abuse, you keep defending the indefensible. Try and think objectively. We tried to cheat. We wanted the easy way. We acted without integrity. We thought getting the second best junior in the land would solve all our peoblems. It didn't work. It just further weakened a poor club culture. We made our bed and now we have to lie in it. Shooting the messenger (the AFL, Caro, Brock McLean, whoever)is just delusional.

What you might be missing is the retrospective nature of the whole thing dee-tox . Whatever we did back in '09 was under the ever watchful eye of the AFL . Most of what we've heard that might be in the report was known at the time or can be dismissed as nonsense (e.g. fumbling, 'Zulu' references, winning tank(Port), CC jokes, the 'Vault', Watts etc etc) .

The AFL will need new evidence that has a large element of 'smoking gun' about it. Where is this new incriminating evidence? It has to be new and it has to be incriminating. Where is it?

If you get let off from a speeding fine from the police, they are not going to come knocking on your door 3 years later and charge you. Won't happen. If 'list management' was rubber stamped and viewed as 'accepted practice' back then, then those 'endorsements' can't be reversed years later.

By the way, GWS 'list managed' last season - under the the same ever watchful eye of the AFL. In all manner of fairness, shouldn't Sheedy, Williams(now at Richmond), Allan and their club come under the microscope?

If we get charged and suffer sanctions then this whole thing will end up in court. We haven't come this far to give up now. Our whole FD (I think) and more than half our players weren't even at our club in '09. Should they be punished?

There are only 13 players left from our senior list from 2009 . 27 are are now gone ... 2009 Senior list

[Redleg 40,905]

Great post. And those persons who made monumental stuff ups have the audacity to now push the culture change mantra and blame everyone else but themselves for their incompetance. They have destroyed the next eneration of our young players and sucked the soul out of the rest. And too many here gloat at the delusion that we will outsmart the AFL whilst we grovel at the bottom.

Gee you are really depressing. See if you can find anything at all positive about the club.

[Redleg 40,905]

Sloonie, no wonder you want to resort to personal abuse, you keep defending the indefensible. Try and think objectively. We tried to cheat. We wanted the easy way. We acted without integrity. We thought getting the second best junior in the land would solve all our peoblems. It didn't work. It just further weakened a poor club culture. We made our bed and now we have to lie in it. Shooting the messenger (the AFL, Caro, Brock McLean, whoever)is just delusional.

I quote the words of that great AFL President Eddie, " if Melbourne didn't do what they did as many other clubs have also done, they would have been the joke of the AFL".

[Redleg 40,905]

The pity is we didn't go after Matthews when he was available late 90's.

He may have straitened out the culture.

t...

That is the same man who called for Freo to throw a game late in the season so that they could avoid Geelong in the first final. No one seemed too upset about that.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I quote the words of that great AFL President Eddie, " if Melbourne didn't do what they did as many other clubs have also done, they would have been the joke of the AFL".

did eddie say that? really?

[Macca 16,965]

did eddie say that? really?

From this article 'dl'. It's from late October 2012 ...3 months after the investigation started ...

Collingwood president Eddie McGuire doesn't believe Melbourne should be punished for tanking

"You can't blame the cat for swallowing the cream if you put the cream out in front of it,'' McGuire said on his Triple-M radio show.

He said the Demons would have been mocked at the time had they won too many games to earn a priority pick and those judging them now should be careful of applying "20/20 hindsight morality''

[Carrot Top 947]

Geez, this saga is creating strange bed fellows indeed.

I feel a bit icky.

[angrydee 842]

Sloonie, no wonder you want to resort to personal abuse, you keep defending the indefensible. Try and think objectively. We tried to cheat. We wanted the easy way. We acted without integrity. We thought getting the second best junior in the land would solve all our peoblems. It didn't work. It just further weakened a poor club culture. We made our bed and now we have to lie in it. Shooting the messenger (the AFL, Caro, Brock McLean, whoever)is just delusional.

What team do you support? We know it's not Melbourne.

[dee-tox 4,835]

What team do you support? We know it's not Melbourne.

Passionate Melb supporter Angry. Member since mid 80s. Been to over 450 games. Just think we need some perspective. I don't blindly follow what the club tells me. We made poor decisions that impacted on the culture of the club. In 2009 we were so excited about the possibility of getting a priority pick. FFS, our fans cheered when McMahon kicked that winning goal! We celebrated on Demonland! I find it weird that now we get all defensive when the AFL has a crack at us. We all knew what we doing was against the spirit of the game. It doesn't matter whether other clubs did it also. Perhaps they had a better culture in place? My point is by doing this, it gave the players an 'out'. A reason not to go 100 percent. Combine that with exiting leaders such as McDonald, Bruce etc and we become rudderless. The people who put that plan in place need to be held accountable for it. And in a perverse sort of way I hope they are booted out of football for ever. In Schwab's case it should have been when he got done for breaching the salary cap when Gutnick was president.