Jack Hannath

[jabberwocky 2,301]

so long as he is able to impact the contest both in the air

This is the problem I see with Spencer, not a great judge of the ball in flight and has concrete hands.

I like my rucks to be able able to take marks around the ground even if they have other shortcomings, he hasn't been able to show that he can do it consistently. Maybe this year he can, would like to see him succeed.

[Jordie_tackles 354]

I'd say that Fitzpatrick will be primarily developed as a KPF. That leaves 3 injury prone ruckman. Jamar,Spencer and Gawn. Like some I do not see the value in Spencer. He is an athlete, not a footballer.

I think people are unwilling to see his improvement, he isnt not the spencil from 3-4 years, he has bulked up for a start and can ruck very well, to well for VFL level and will be coming into his prime soon,which is good for us, he isnt amazing or anything but i can see him doing something or being useful in Jamar is injured ect

[Demonsterative 1,905]

Spencer isn't an athlete, he's the epitomy of the ten thumbed, lumbering, uncoordinated young tall footballer. That cliche (of Checker Hughes origin?) about giving talls 5 years to demonstrate they couldn't play was written for guys like Spencer. His biggest strength is that he's strong and aggressive; if he can round out the other elements of his game I think he'll be just fine as a first ruck. Being a poor kick won't hurt us greatly so long as he is able to impact the contest both in the air and on the ground, which I think he will be able to.

Spencer's strength and running ability says to me he is an athlete. His kicking is a problem, turn overs cost goals and games. He is certainly not a natural footballer. Pyke from the Swans kicks better than Spencer and he did not grow up with the game.

[dee-luded 2,958]

Spencer's strength and running ability says to me he is an athlete. His kicking is a problem, turn overs cost goals and games. He is certainly not a natural footballer. Pyke from the Swans kicks better than Spencer and he did not grow up with the game.

Often kicking issues are 75% poor confidence.

Jamar was renowned as a poor kick & wouldn't make it. a spud.

Well he has made it & can play & can kick. He's not Aaron Davey, but he is OK for a big guy.

Jamar copped the exact same negative talk Spencer is receiving now or last year, but he is starting to rise. How far we will see.

[hoopla 418]

Spencer isn't an athlete, he's the epitomy of the ten thumbed, lumbering, uncoordinated young tall footballer. That cliche (of Checker Hughes origin?) about giving talls 5 years to demonstrate they couldn't play was written for guys like Spencer. His biggest strength is that he's strong and aggressive; if he can round out the other elements of his game I think he'll be just fine as a first ruck. Being a poor kick won't hurt us greatly so long as he is able to impact the contest both in the air and on the ground, which I think he will be able to.

Must say I found the suggestion that "Spencer is an athlete" nearly as amusing as the uncoordinated efforts of his namesake Frank on the vintage British comedy "Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em" ( ..... Mister Spencer...)

Credit where credit's due though - he is strong and determined - and he showed great improvement last year. He competes and I never thought I'd be saying this - but I agree that he might just be OK as a first ruck.

In time though, I'm just hoping that Big Maxie will be the man.

[monoccular 16,037]

This is the problem I see with Spencer, not a great judge of the ball in flight and has concrete hands.

I like my rucks to be able able to take marks around the ground even if they have other shortcomings, he hasn't been able to show that he can do it consistently. Maybe this year he can, would like to see him succeed.

So "your rucks" are the antithesis of Jamar then, who really offers little presence around the ground. I agree that should be a KPI for a ruckman, not merely the ability to get a lot of hitout stats, and those often not to advantage nor resulting in a clearance.

[jumbo returns 6,486]

WTF? Are you guys just trying to convince yourselves or do you honestly think that? Martin has done a good job in the ruck, just didn't really work as a forward, but geez I reckon he gave us more than Jamar this year. Plus, with the new ruck rules coming in that favour more athletic ruckmen, Martin may just thrive, as opposed to a lump like Jamar.

Not saying we should have kept him, changes had to be made, but saying "anything is better than Martin" is just ridiculous.

stuie, you and I had an excellent debate about Martin about 3 months ago. You didn't want him gone, now you say '....Not saying we should have kept him....' - please make up your mind.

Martin will languish in the QAFL for most of 2013 - has always been a good ressies player.

[The Backyard Charizard 1,178]

I will be extremely happy if young Jack is picked up by us as a rookie.... The kid can play!

Living over here in Adelaide, I am a massive Norwood/SANFL follower and have seen a fair few of his games live... Perfect rookie draftee... Has really started to bulk up over the last 12-18 months and will continue to do so.... Very impressive for Central Districts this season....

And we are all forgetting one important thing..... His name is JACK.... It's a lock!

[stuie 7,374]

stuie, you and I had an excellent debate about Martin about 3 months ago. You didn't want him gone, now you say '....Not saying we should have kept him....' - please make up your mind.

Martin will languish in the QAFL for most of 2013 - has always been a good ressies player.

I'm just reserving judgement given the massive changes we've made. I'm on record as saying I'm not happy about losing Gysberts, and I think Martin would have been handy next year, he was better than Jamar this year, and with the new ruck rules next year he may just thrive. I'm excited by the changes we've made overall so I'm just trying to accept that I don't know what Neeld does and giving it all a chance. Don't underestimate Martin tho, he didn't work as a forward/ruck, but when he was the sole ruck he played some good games.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

I'm just reserving judgement given the massive changes we've made. I'm on record as saying I'm not happy about losing Gysberts, and I think Martin would have been handy next year, he was better than Jamar this year, and with the new ruck rules next year he may just thrive. I'm excited by the changes we've made overall so I'm just trying to accept that I don't know what Neeld does and giving it all a chance. Don't underestimate Martin tho, he didn't work as a forward/ruck, but when he was the sole ruck he played some good games.

Chances are that one or two of the blokes that we have let go will succeed at another club. That won't mean that we will have made a mistake.

The list needs to be looked at as an entity on it's own and not as a group of indivduals.

[rpfc 27,406]

Rucks don't need to be skillful.

If they get 3 kicks and 7 hanballs they can still have a dominant game if the hit the ball 40 times with their fist.

Jamar is value because he can dominate the centre square - an area a number 1 ruckman must be good at.

That is why he got 3 years.

If Spencer can do that - he will have a career. Same goes for any uncoordinated, skill-averse behemoth.

Edited November 29, 2012 by rpfc

[jumbo returns 6,486]

Stef Martin will go down as another bungled pick.

I know he didn't 'cost' much, but it's symbolic of our last five years or so.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Stef Martin will go down as another bungled pick.

I know he didn't 'cost' much, but it's symbolic of our last five years or so.

Martin was a PSD pick and was traded for 52 and 72 which snared us Matt Jones at 52 , 72 was used to upgrade Evans and allowed us to use the pick on Terlich?

Edited November 30, 2012 by dandeeman

[Hannibal 5,814]

Martin was a PSD pick and was traded for 52 and 72 which snared us Matt Jones at 52 72 was used to upgrade Evans and allowed us to use the pick on Terlich?

Absolutely. He also played 57 games. In no way was Martin a "bungled" pick when you consider where he was taken.

[The Albino Warrior 44]

There's a difference between poor kicking skills and no kicking skills. There's a difference between being a poor judge of the ball's flight and consistently misjudging marks.

Jamar certainly reached his best late in his career, but he was always strong above his head and a decent judge when the ball was in the air (from memory, his main problem was not having the tank to get to the contests on the bigger AFL grounds and take the pack marks that become his trademark at his peak).

If Spencer makes it as some on here are suggesting (and by makes it, I mean nothing more that he plays 40 or 50 games) I would consider it one of the greatest elite-level sporting improvements in the history of sport.

I disagree that ruckmen in modern footy can be valuable while possessing poor basic skills. They are bigger liabilities than ever before.

[stuie 7,374]

Chances are that one or two of the blokes that we have let go will succeed at another club. That won't mean that we will have made a mistake.

The list needs to be looked at as an entity on it's own and not as a group of indivduals.

That sounds a bit too much like an each way bet to me.... So we've ditched a highly talented, very young, midfielder in Gysberts, who didn't get much of a chance in the first year under Neeld for various reasons, and if he turns out to be a fantastic player we didn't make a mistake? Silly.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

That sounds a bit too much like an each way bet to me.... So we've ditched a highly talented, very young, midfielder in Gysberts, who didn't get much of a chance in the first year under Neeld for various reasons, and if he turns out to be a fantastic player we didn't make a mistake? Silly.

Neither player has the attributes that Neeld wants, and he brought in players that he thinks have them.

Very simple stuff. So the list improves according to Neelds specs.

The opposite of an each way bet.

Notwithstanding the fact that trades/delisting enforce the adherence to standards set by the coaching crew. You need to take a broader view of these things.

Edited November 30, 2012 by dandeeman

[stuie 7,374]

Neither player has the attributes that Neeld wants, and he brought in players that he thinks have them.

Very simple stuff. So the list improves according to Neelds specs.

The opposite of an each way bet.

Notwithstanding the fact that trades/delisting enforce the adherence to standards set by the coaching crew. You need to take a broader view of these things.

So Neeld fires exceptionally talented young players after a few games because he's chucking a tanty.....? Would have thought as a coach he'd be able to mould a young player. It is his job. Look, I'm really happy with what Neeld has done overall this offseason, it's just the Gys one that doesn't sit too well with me, seems a bit too quick. Wouldn't have thought Brad Scott would like slacker players, so I'll guess we'll see how he goes there hey...

[jabberwocky 2,301]

So Neeld fires exceptionally talented young players after a few games because he's chucking a tanty.....? Would have thought as a coach he'd be able to mould a young player. It is his job. Look, I'm really happy with what Neeld has done overall this offseason, it's just the Gys one that doesn't sit too well with me, seems a bit too quick. Wouldn't have thought Brad Scott would like slacker players, so I'll guess we'll see how he goes there hey...

Personally i don't think Gys is good enough, nowhere near exceptionally talented. We shall see. If he does become a serviceable player, which with his limitations is all that I can see him becoming I will not think that getting rid of him was a bad decision.

What are Gysbert's exceptional talents Stuie?

Chucking a tanty, who said Neeld was the one who had the tanty?

Edited November 30, 2012 by dandeeman

[Deeoldfart 7,719]

That sounds a bit too much like an each way bet to me.... So we've ditched a highly talented, very young, midfielder in Gysberts, who didn't get much of a chance in the first year under Neeld for various reasons, and if he turns out to be a fantastic player we didn't make a mistake? Silly.

I'm wondering just what you have seen in Gysberts that has you rating him as 'highly talented'. His disposal skills are barely average for a midfielder, his marking and goal kicking are nothing special and he doesn't have the motor required to play as a midfielder anyway. Add to this his perceived lack of motivation and / or buy-in to the Neeld way of doing things, and and it made all the sense in the world to move him on IMO. Notwithstanding his injuries, I would add that he had plenty of opportunity to press his claims at Casey, but certainly didn't shine as a 'highly talented' player could reasonably be expected to do.

[Demonsterative 1,905]

Gysberts up side is high. He is a good user of the ball inside. He reads the play well and gets alot of the ball (he averages around 20 disposals at AFL level). His disposal is not as bad as some make out. He may not be an elite kicker of the ball but his kicking is of a good standard (IMO). He creates plays well by having good vision in tight releasing players on the outside. He was recruited for his creativity and ball use as an inside midfielder.

His down side is not good. Work rate, endurance and body size. He has a poor motor and is skinny and is easily pushed off the ball. If he aint prepared to work hard to build his endurance and strength, then the club made the right decision.

Imagine if he did have a good motor and strength. He would be an excellent player who'd get to more contests and get alot more of the ball.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Imagine if he did have a good motor and strength. He would be an excellent player who'd get to more contests and get alot more of the ball.

Exactly.

Obviously fairly important aspects of being an AFL midfielder.

If only my skills and pace were a bit better I woulda been awesome.

[stuie 7,374]

Personally i don't think Gys is good enough, nowhere near exceptionally talented. We shall see. If he does become a serviceable player, which with his limitations is all that I can see him becoming I will not think that getting rid of him was a bad decision.

What are Gysbert's exceptional talents Stuie?

Chucking a tanty, who said Neeld was the one who had the tanty?

I respect your opinion Dan, and I can understand why you think that way, doesn't make you right or wrong and same goes for me. I agree he wasn't good enough this year, but you're a pretty tough judge if you deny his talent. Anyways, this is a Jack Hannath thread and I don't want to hijack it, I'll just say I understand where you're coming from but i respectfully disagree and think Gys could turn out to be a very good player under a coach that can afford to have more patience. Cheers.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

I respect your opinion Dan, and I can understand why you think that way, doesn't make you right or wrong and same goes for me. I agree he wasn't good enough this year, but you're a pretty tough judge if you deny his talent. Anyways, this is a Jack Hannath thread and I don't want to hijack it, I'll just say I understand where you're coming from but i respectfully disagree and think Gys could turn out to be a very good player under a coach that can afford to have more patience. Cheers.

We can isolate decisions made by the FD but it gets back to what they are trying to do with the list in it's entirity. Personally I think that Stefan Martin is a greater loss than the Gys but that comes back to my perceptions. The fact is that Neeld's vision for the list is very different to Bailey's and I am prepared to back his mandate to make us harder and better. he is in a much better position to judge these blokes than we are. We can only surmise at the commitment these guys have through what we see on the ground and track and what we hear through rumour.

As for this bloke Hannath, the modern ruckman needs to have good strength, athleticism and a strong diesel engine that allows him to get to contests and influence the game around the ground. Even better if they have the skills to be a link man when needed.

If thats what he is and he wants it then I hope we pick him up. As I said earlier getting your rucks from the rookie list is a wise move if you can swing it.

Edited November 30, 2012 by dandeeman

[Demonsterative 1,905]

Exactly.

Obviously fairly important aspects of being an AFL midfielder.

If only my skills and pace were a bit better I woulda been awesome.

In all respect D'man. You were never considered a talent or drafted as a first round pick. Gysberts was a top junior who played in top junior leagues. From memory he impacted at senior level in the EDFL. He is still young enough to make his mark as an AFL player, and under a different coach he displayed some talent and potential at AFL level. In 3 seasons he played around 17 games (maybe more or less), dont quote me here as i havent looked up his stats

If your pace was better along with your skills, you probably wouldnt have made enough impact for AFL clubs to look at you. Bad comparasin I think. I think the consensus here is that he has the ability to play at AFL level, but has huge down side with his work rate and natural athletic ability.