Moving Newton

[Radar Detector 1,347]

And how did Juice go in the last 3 quarters? Big chance for him to make an impact and show that he has changed, but, like Bate last week, he hasn't.

He was performing well as a forward and the supply dried up. Surely you agree he offered much more than Bate did last week in terms of output?

I realise that Newton didn't set the world on fire in the ruck yesterday and he has failed many times. I DO NOT think he is any sort of saviour or even that he is likely to last beyond this year. However I do think we need another tall forward option aside from Watts and Jurrah and, of all the alternatives tried so far this year (Dunn, Martin, Bate, Newton) I saw more from Juice in one quarter than I have seen from the rest of that list all season (in that particular role).

[The Chazz 4,077]

He was performing well as a forward and the supply dried up. Surely you agree he offered much more than Bate did last week in terms of output?

I realise that Newton didn't set the world on fire in the ruck yesterday and he has failed many times. I DO NOT think he is any sort of saviour or even that he is likely to last beyond this year. However I do think we need another tall forward option aside from Watts and Jurrah and, of all the alternatives tried so far this year (Dunn, Martin, Bate, Newton) I saw more from Juice in one quarter than I have seen from the rest of that list all season (in that particular role).

That's the point - more from him in 1 quarter. He had the opportunity when he went in to the ruck to perform 2nd efforts like Martin did all day, he didn't do it. No arguement about him offering more than Bate did last week, and as a result Bate was dropped.

We have drafted Cook as our "other" tall forward that we need. He may be good, he may not, but one thing is for sure, he's not going to be as bad as Newton. Sadly with Cook, we have to wait, and we all know how much people in here hate that! I still believe Martin can be that tall forward in the mean time, especially when Jamar comes back, and maybe Big Max might have snuck his way in by then? If not this year, will definitely be next.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

Wrong. Newton was the recipient of some great work in the first 20 minutes when MFC dominated the inside 50s (I think it was 11 to 3 on the radio). We were belting North in the midfield who were lazy and unaccountable. Newton did his doing job up forward. But it was from the midfield where the game was won. But the game changed at about the 21 minute mark and North started to haul us in. We folded like a pack of cards. We stopped winning the centre clearances and inside 50s. Goldstein took over. Newton was selected to play forward and pinch hit the ruck. Martin was rested to ensure he could have rucked for the majority of the match. I am not sure we lost much forward because when our midfield got beaten we rarely did move forward. And given you felt he was diong so much what better than to put him where the action was...in the centre. I would have backed Nev Jetta to have more impact at a centre bounce than Dunn.

1. Yes the game changed out about the 23 minute mark, but not for the reasons you're putting forward: It was about that time that Newton was moved into the ruck or as 3rd man up to follow the ball (and assist Martin). WE had the momentum. North were getting frustrated, against the ropes and starting to skitz it (hence the wack across Juice's scone which resulted in a 50 and goal ie., discipline starting to slip due to our momentum/play).

2. ..."I would have backed Jetta to have more impact at centre bounce than Dunn"...: Lol Rhino. Dunn held his own in the ruck the week before when used as a backup (sharing the forward half contests etc). We used Dunny Brush and others as 3rd man up etc. He did ok, using good body position to overcome height issues etc. He was the best of the fill ins in the ruck contests against Crow Eaters. Watch the match again (in full) and you'll see that (in the limited ruck duals he was involved in) he at least nullified his opponent on a number of occasions at stoppages (yes he was occasionaly beaten too), allowing us to contest and win clearances.

Unfortunately he might never contribute again given his performance on Sat. However, i blame that partially on poor management from the Coaching Panel (CP) in terms of not asking a similar role of him given he did a reasonable job the week before in a position/role he would never normally be asked to play. We needed that role (part time fill in for Martin) again against North.

3. Newton into ruck: Isn't and never will be a ruckman or a fill in for one. When moved into the ruck or being used as 3rd man up (with Martin) he gave away a few free kicks and cost us a critical goal right at the end of the 1st quarter (in a ruck dual with Goldstein). Other than giving away free kicks while rucking, he was ineffective once moved and ended up using much of the limited match fitness/energy (AFL level) he would have had in his tank for a pointless role. Better to have conserved what he had and allowed him to keep using it up forward where he's more effective (and was to that point). His confidence was up and the team had an incentive/target to get the pill to him after his good efforts (goals, assists and tackles) in first 23 minutes (approx) of 1st quarter.

4. The decision to move him into the ruck towards the end of the first quarter was (possibly) a set move by the CP. Yes this is a gut feel guess i realise but there had to be some reasoning for it (one would hope!). Eg., Newton had 2 roles on the day and one was to help Martin out and allow him to rest. The CP may (who knows unless one was in the box or involved in the pre-match sessions) have determined this was to occur around the 20 minute mark (approx).

Alternatively they saw something we didn't (eg., Martin starting to tire...a worry given he's supposed to be AFL level) and decided to move him around that time. Also possibly planed pre-match of course, only this option offers more flexibility to the CP on game day. Either way it was a woeful move. We lost momentum and initiative right there. North were all over the shop at that stage and ineffective in almost all positions on the ground. WE had the momentum. Martin was holding his own in terms of creating a contest at least and not being totally smashed, albeit overwhelmed by size/class of Goldstein as the match wore on (post 1st quarter).

At this point the CP needed to have more faith in our engine room continuing to overcome the Goldstein advantage (which they had to that point) and work hard to get hands on ball first and clear etc. We were humming in that first 23 minutes or so. When you're on a good thing, i say stick to it. If Martin was totally spent then maybe...Dunn into the ruck. Newton stays forward. Rest Martin down back if required last 8 - 10 minutes. Keep up the scoreboard pressure if possible and team Structure! Which leads me to the next point...

5. Structure: The game probably was turned and won from the middle (usually is), but the above didn't help our cause and may have played a big part in turning the momentum that we had up to that point, North's way. We took our biggest asset at that point up forward (Newton) and left our forward line undermanned.

Newton may not be the long term answer, but he sure showed something and was way better than anything we've put there this year target/output wise (albeit it was only about 23 minutes....but we'll never know will we!). While he was there, we at least held structure up the spine (Newton, Martin, Chip).

Sure, Martin couldn't play 4 quarters against Goldstein and co. without help/rest but he was never expected to. But, moving Newton into the ruck certainly didn't help with the team's structure either IMO. Dunn wasn't ideal as back up either (obviously), but IMO rolling the Dunny Brush dice (Martin's back up) with 3rd man up chop outs to assist him, was a better alternative to ensure Newton stayed forward to maintain at least 2 parts of the structure while Martin was rested. Surely better than the damage (to us) that Dunn managed elsewhere!

Also, by having a dangerous target you have the possibility of drawing opponents away from their man to assist in spoiling the marking contest, creating other potential target/options up forward eg., Junkyard Bobby & Air Jurrah. By removing Newton as the effective (tall) target up forward (to that point) it meant one less major problem (advantage/asset for us) for the opponent to try and counter (asset/advantage for them).

Anyways. I've already spent enough time venting this view re: Newton being moved on another post at about 3am on Sunday morning when i was half smashed and couldn't sleep. And i'm getting another headache thinking about Saturday's effort/outcome (again). Arghh lol

Cheers

B)

Edited May 16, 2011 by Rusty Nails

[ickey_11 145]

I was most impressed with Juice when he backed into the pack in the last quarter. The game was over and he he still went.

[stueyspencer no12 73]

You probably know I don't have much time for Juice, but your comments are way way to harsh.

He played his best game on Sat, played the role asked of him and put in all day.

His first quarter was great then he was sacrificed for the good of the team, tried to do a job he was destined to fail at, and then had to "rest" deep in the fwd line after being stuffed,with the ball not making many more fwd entries, and limiting his chances, ..........and you bag him.

If you are looking for retributive blood there were many other easier targets

You are dead right!

A friend with me was watching Newton carefully for a long period in the last quarter. Martin was hobbling at F F. Newton had to ruck, alone, for a long period.

Got beaten, of course, but we were impressed how hard he battled on. Got some kicks, got nearly killed falling back into a pack. Is now a player I think

[Radar Detector 1,347]

That's the point - more from him in 1 quarter. He had the opportunity when he went in to the ruck to perform 2nd efforts like Martin did all day, he didn't do it. No arguement about him offering more than Bate did last week, and as a result Bate was dropped.

The difference is Juice is a forward who pinch hits occasionally in the ruck as neccessity dictates. Martin is a back-up ruck only. I would expect Martin to perform better in the ruck than Juice.

I understand all the arguments about Newton only being retained as a forward/ruck but he showed plenty as a forward only - IMO enough to give him another run in that role whether they play him as second ruck or not. Give him a chance to play permanent forward and see what he's got. If we get some more consistent ball, I'd like to see whether he can burst some more packs, lay some tackles and kick some goals for a whole match. Or several matches. He may have improved or he may remain a c*ck tease but he showed a bit on the weekend and we should see what the 2011 version is made of.

[Roost It 1,434]

Newton was in the ruck at the start of the second quarter. North had finished the first quarter kicking 3 goals in 4 minutes. The flow of the game had changed as the second quarter started and flowed harder in the 2nd quarter as North took over.. Maybe you just missed it.

No Newton starting rucking when we were 30 points up about 2/3 of the way through the first quarter. No doubt North had lifted but we had several more forays forward. The assertion that Newton only played well because of our midfield is really stating the obvious. Most forwards play there best football when the midfield is on top as that's how the ball gets into the forward line. A full forwards role is to provide a target and kick goals. When not doinfg this he should be assisting in goals. Newton did all of that in the fifst 20 minutes on saturday. He played very well and it was a por decision to move him...Period.... or maybe you missed that.

I'm happy for you to add smart arse comments at the end of your posts but in the future check your facts.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Roost It

[demonique 314]

a few years ago I bagged The Juice from pillar to post, could't run, couldn't kick and was soft in the tackling dept,

Well, that was another player on Saturday. And I'm thinking with all players up and running, Jamar rucking Moloney etc getting clearances, Newt the Beaut could be what we have been searching for, I mean they were fabulous lead outs and strong marks and the follow through with a strong shoulder (get out of my way) shove, loved it !!!!

well DB has got a huge job to patch the holes in this ship and keep the sucker afloat.

Personally I want a coach who is a a take no prisoners type, Leigh M for me!!! but he doesn't want to leave Brisbane I understand.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

No Newton starting rucking when we were 30 points up about 2/3 of the way through the first quarter. No doubt North had lifted but we had several more forays forward. The assertion that Newton only played well because of our midfield is really stating the obvious. Most forwards play there best football when the midfield is on top as that's how the ball gets into the forward line. A full forwards role is to provide a target and kick goals. When not doinfg this he should be assisting in goals. Newton did all of that in the fifst 20 minutes on saturday. He played very well and it was a por decision to move him...Period.... or maybe you missed that.

I'm happy for you to add smart arse comments at the end of your posts but in the future check your facts.

Roost, I just checked the tape, Newton rucked once in the centre and was on the ball for 2 minutes with 3 minutes to go in the first quarter. Most of that time it was in the backline He did not ruck at all in the 2nd quarter. Martin took every centre bounce. During that 2 minutes we went forward once from clearance where Newton nullfied Goldstein and Bail took the scrubby kick out of the centre. It was cleared easily by North.

And I never asserted that Newts only played well due to our midfield. But his access to the ball was a consequence of the midfield winning possession. Newton did his job well up forward. However his move did into the ruck did not impact the game. Its interesting to note then when the midfield started to get beaten in the midfield so did the supply forward. And it got worse in the 2nd half.

Posters claiming the Newton move robbed MFC of momentum etc... were not seeing how the game was unfolding (or how MFC was folding). Some of the pressure and effort in the 2nd half was just plain embarrassing.

[Jaded No More 68,966]

I still don't understand why we are discussing this.

Newton came into the side only because every other ruckman bar Martin has decided to lose a leg, or is an 18 year old child.

He came into the side under the provision that he was going to help in the ruck. If we wanted another tall in the forwardline we would have kept Bate in the team.

Newton did well in the first quarter when we were up and about and winning the ball in the middle and delivering the ball to him on a platter. He deserves another chance, especially with Dunn out of the side, but if he can't compete in the ruck he has no long term place in the side.

[Green Machine 63]

He has only played 20 somthing games IIRC and we use this excuse for every other inexperienced player, so why not him?

[Jaded No More 68,966]

He has only played 20 somthing games IIRC and we use this excuse for every other inexperienced player, so why not him?

Ever ask yourself why someone who has been on our list for 7 seasons, and hasn't had any major injury concerns, has only played 20 something games?

Hint, it's because he hasn't shown enough to warrant more games.

[Green Machine 63]

Hmmmm, he seems to constantly kick bags of goals for Casey so then he gets a game, and sure, does not do to well, but he is dropped and I do not think he is given long enough to get some form going in the seniors. Im not saying he should be pumped full of game time, just making an excuse for him, because its what we do at this club.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Green Machine

[Webber 10,474]

In regard to Michael Newton, try this thought experiment.....imagine that up until this year, he was playing for Williamstown in the VFL. Melbourne decided to take him on as a mature age rookie in the manner of Barlow, Duigan or Podsiadly. He played at Casey and earned his spot in the 1's against North (whatever the reasons).

With this view, how would you think he performed on Saturday? Would you pick him next week? Would you see him as one of the positives from the game?

My point is, could he be a late maturer, in the manner of those players mentioned above?

I admit to being frustrated that he was kept at MFC this year, but equally I have to admit that the above is possible.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

In regard to Michael Newton, try this thought experiment.....imagine that up until this year, he was playing for Williamstown in the VFL. Melbourne decided to take him on as a mature age rookie in the manner of Barlow, Duigan or Podsiadly. He played at Casey and earned his spot in the 1's against North (whatever the reasons).

With this view, how would you think he performed on Saturday? Would you pick him next week? Would you see him as one of the positives from the game?

My point is, could he be a late maturer, in the manner of those players mentioned above?

I admit to being frustrated that he was kept at MFC this year, but equally I have to admit that the above is possible.

the fact is that was his best game in 7 years and it was only about a quarter. It was a good quarter but its the only one he's ever shown. However, I would give him another run FCS we have 9 players unavailable of course he won't get dropped

[Rogue 585]

Ever ask yourself why someone who has been on our list for 7 seasons, and hasn't had any major injury concerns, has only played 20 something games?

Hint, it's because he hasn't shown enough to warrant more games.

He would have played a bunch more games last year, but kept getting injured/suspended as he was about to be selected.

Newton did well in the first quarter when we were up and about and winning the ball in the middle and delivering the ball to him on a platter.

I had a quick look at the first quarter replay last night and I think you're underselling him.

Regardless, if he's as terrible as you think you'll have plenty of opportunity to stick the boot in soon, so there's not much need to do it following the North game IMO

[waikikkamukau 62]

newton does what newton always does

flashes in and out but overall just a frustrating player

will be back at casey soon and then kick 7 and people will then call for his promotion again

same as last 6 or so years.....could be a life member soon

delist him and be gone with mediocrity

Sounds like the story of the MFC!

[waikikkamukau 62]

The difference is Juice is a forward who pinch hits occasionally in the ruck as neccessity dictates. Martin is a back-up ruck only. I would expect Martin to perform better in the ruck than Juice.

I understand all the arguments about Newton only being retained as a forward/ruck but he showed plenty as a forward only - IMO enough to give him another run in that role whether they play him as second ruck or not. Give him a chance to play permanent forward and see what he's got. If we get some more consistent ball, I'd like to see whether he can burst some more packs, lay some tackles and kick some goals for a whole match. Or several matches. He may have improved or he may remain a c*ck tease but he showed a bit on the weekend and we should see what the 2011 version is made of.

The term "Pinch hitting" has no place in Aussie rules football! A ridiculous saying coined by Dermott Brereton! Apart from that good post, I'd like to see Max Gawn have a run with Stef back up and leave Juice down forward for 2-3 weeks. should give enough time to see if he ever has a future at MFC

[daisycutter 29,621]

The term "Pinch hitting" has no place in Aussie rules football! A ridiculous saying coined by Dermott Brereton! Apart from that good post, I'd like to see Max Gawn have a run with Stef back up and leave Juice down forward for 2-3 weeks. should give enough time to see if he ever has a future at MFC

Agreed, it is a baseball term.

But come up with a better term, as it does describe a certain situation well

[beelzebub 23,380]

Golly gee we're getting a bit Cinderella like if we start applying non-sensical and without substance arguments as to what 'words' we can or cant use when talking footy.. The last I looked we're an English speaking Country ( just ) and therefore any of the generally accepted venacular is open for grabs when speaking.

Whilst Pinch hitting without doubt originated from baseball its no longer the preserve of that game. Its quite commonly refered to as anyone assuming a role on a temproary basis without necessarily having all the normally understood qualities to do so..

No one controls the Thesaurus here when it comes to open speech !!

Play Ball !!!!

[Jaded No More 68,966]

I had a quick look at the first quarter replay last night and I think you're underselling him.

Regardless, if he's as terrible as you think you'll have plenty of opportunity to stick the boot in soon, so there's not much need to do it following the North game IMO

I didn't get stuck into him at all? What the hell?

I think he was very good and I said elsewhere that his defensive pressure was absolutely excellent, but North were rubbish in the first quarter and we were up and about. Our midfield was giving the forwards excellent delivery which is why we managed to kick 7 goals in a quarter (is that some sort of record?! )

IMO we tend to overrate and go a bit weak at the knees at any semi large forward who manages to come into the side and take a couple of good marks and kick goals, because we are starved for a big forward who can do that consistently. But for me, consistency is the key, and I think Newton proved on Saturday that while he is capable of doing some excellent things, he is firstly no back up ruckman, and secondly, a terrible decision maker.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

...

Its called damning with faint praise.

His first quarter was very very good. He worked hard, provided an option,kicked 2.1 and forced an advantage goal to Watts through laying a tackle that lead to a holding the ball decision. I dont see the issue of consistency being relevant here. As the midfield caved in and Newts opportunuities dried up in the forward line. In the 2nd quarter when the tide began to turn, MFC forwards were starved of inside 50s. And MFC are at desperate stage when they have to use Newton to be back up centre ruckman in order to back up a fourth string ruckman in Martin.

[Jaded No More 68,966]

Its called damning with faint praise.

His first quarter was very very good. He worked hard, provided an option,kicked 2.1 and forced an advantage goal to Watts through laying a tackle that lead to a holding the ball decision. I dont see the issue of consistency being relevant here. As the midfield caved in and Newts opportunuities dried up in the forward line. In the 2nd quarter when the tide began to turn, MFC forwards were starved of inside 50s. And MFC are at desperate stage when they have to use Newton to be back up centre ruckman in order to back up a fourth string ruckman in Martin.

OK how is anything you just said different to what I said?

Newton is rucking out of necessity, we all know that, and that is not his fault.

I said his pressure was excellent and he had a very good first quarter. I just find it funny that people get [censored] if we praise Watts for a good quarter, but if we don't fall over and praise Newton for a good quarter we're being critical and negative.

He played well, but when he moved up the ground he made terrible decisions. Those are the facts, and maybe that is not his fault because he can't play anywhere but up forward, and maybe he needs more time to get back into the swing of things. I agree that he needs to keep playing and he will definitely get a game this week, which he has earnt, as opposed to some of his teammates who are getting games on the back of reputation and not form.

Of course I would love to see him succeed, but after 7 season on the list and an inability to show any consistency, you'll excuse me if I'm putting money on him for the Bluey just yet.

[agent_orange 0]

Exactly. I know it's Juice we're talking about, but it seems that no matter how well certain players perform, some on this site can't look further than past perceptions.

While Jurrah has played some blinders, Newton's first quater was the first time in years and years that I have seen a forward physically impose himself in the forwardline. He actually looked like a fullforward.

He is well ahead of Bate. Like to see him play a whole game forward.

[agent_orange 0]

I agree with this.

I think I mis-interpreted your initial "Wrong" reply to Roost It as diminishing Juice's efforts. On a re-read I can see how it was saying that he was not the main reason we were in front and supply from the mids was the key. I agree with this. Happy to retract the "ridiculous" comment on that basis. Apologies.

The mids job is to win the ball, forwards job is to finish it off. Juice finished it off. At least he lead, how often have we seen a forward that bothers to lead? Maybe Fev has taught the Juice a thing or two.