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Snoopy

It's The Midfield Stupid!

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Those stats are good. They still don't explain the over use of the ball, or the bad decision making going forward, or indeed the softness and unwillingness to fight out the game.

I can accept getting beaten one on one, losing the clearances, being pressured, those are all things that a mature team should do against a young team. But a lack of heart and fight has been a trademark of this club for many years, even when we were full of big bodies.

We had everything to play for last night and we packed it in after quarter time. Heads dropped, intensity was nearly non existent and nobody was leading the way except two 19 year olds in Trengove and Watts.

Agree. Stats only tell a percentage of the whole night.

The Gut running and Hunting the ball was not there.

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lol

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Does MFC have a midfield?

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I've been gone for a while.

Has anything happened?

Yes, Bailey won't coach Melbourne to a flag, that's fairly certain.

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Yes, Bailey won't coach Melbourne to a flag, that's fairly certain.

Fair dinkum!

I thought he was doing ok for a bloke with such a poor midfield.

How did the next bloke go?

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We may have covered this already in this thread but I am watching the WCE vs CFCS match tonight and the mid field battle is intriguing. It is not so much about the personnel as their systems, I think. Their rapid handball movements to players in better positions is amazing. We just don't do this at all, it is grab the hit out and get tackled for us. So we are talking about process as much as talent. Perhaps something to think about as we try to build a midfield.

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We need to recruit true midfielders instead of flankers / wingers.

Problem has been in the past recruiting to many of these types such as:

Morton, Bennel, Jetta, Bail, Nicholson

Mids we did recruit have gone: Scully, Gysberts, McLean, Moloney, S.Thompson.

Lets concentrate on pure mids this yr such as Aish, Freeman etc..

Good teams recruit mids till they have so many that they fill up flanks as well.

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On 8/23/2013 at 10:25 PM, Grimes is Great said:

We need to recruit true midfielders instead of flankers / wingers.

Problem has been in the past recruiting to many of these types such as:

Morton, Bennel, Jetta, Bail, Nicholson

Mids we did recruit have gone: Scully, Gysberts, McLean, Moloney, S.Thompson.

Lets concentrate on pure mids this yr such as Aish, Freeman etc..

Good teams recruit mids till they have so many that they fill up flanks as well.

And so the story goes!!

Well, after watching teams that have outstanding quick decisive mids in the final series so far, I have to say.....

That unless we have game breaking ultra Quick mids.. we aint going anywhere!!

Jones, Viney, Tyson aren't quick enough!

Not like Geelong, Doggies, Greater Western mids!! 

We will really struggle to compete if we are to challenge for the 8 next year.

Some solutions....

For a start, Jayden Hunt moves to the midfield!

Garlett also rotates but beyond that, and other than Clarry Choo Choo's Lightning hands.. we still will not match it with the fleet of foot!!

This will be a major problem I believe!!

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10 minutes ago, picket fence said:

And so the story goes!!

Well, after watching teams that have outstanding quick decisive mids in the final series so far, I have to say.....

That unless we have game breaking ultra Quick mids.. we aint going anywhere!!

Jones, Viney, Tyson aren't quick enough!

Not like Geelong, Doggies, Greater Western mids!! 

We will really struggle to compete if we are to challenge for the 8 next year.

Some solutions....

For a start, Jayden Hunt moves to the midfield!

Garlett also rotates but beyond that, and other than Clarry Choo Choo's Lightning hands.. we still will not match it with the fleet of foot!!

This will be a major problem I believe!!

Who are Geelong's ultra quick midfielders other than Dangerfield?

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I think we've improved our midfield depth and strength considerably and the players we have will continue to improve our midfield stocks. PF - we could well be only one or two mids away from close to the ideal midfield setup and another quick moving, quick thinking mid might just do they trick. That's why I said elsewhere that we need to trade in one  pick in the late first or early second round in the draft.

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9 minutes ago, leehow said:

Who are Geelong's ultra quick midfielders other than Dangerfield?

You have it in one! Dangerfield! Worth 2 players, and carves up opposition!

He rag dolled Viney in the first 5 minutes of the Geelong Debacle! RAG DOLLED!

We need to offer the world for a quick, decisive, MID !! A SUPERSTAR!

Otherwise we shall remain, thereabouts!

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1 minute ago, picket fence said:

You have it in one! Dangerfield! Worth 2 players, and carves up opposition!

He rag dolled Viney in the first 5 minutes of the Geelong Debacle! RAG DOLLED!

We need to offer the world for a quick, decisive, MID !! A SUPERSTAR!

Otherwise we shall remain, thereabouts!

We have Brayshaw,Viney, Salem basically at the beginning and tracking better than Ok.

Along with Choo Choo and the slouchy skipper ,Tyson,Petracca ,Vince and VDB .

Trengove rag dolled Dangerfield too .He will add some zip won't he?

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You are Kidding arent you Biff?? Brayshaw SLOW, Viney SLOW, JONES & SALEM, not that quick!!

The Rest?? other than Petracca who still needs developing, we are stiil A SLOW one paced Midfield! Clarry has ultra quick hands, too fast for some of our guys to fully utilize! 

Will be lucky to make Sept 2017 with this Midfield! IMO

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3 minutes ago, picket fence said:

You are Kidding arent you Biff?? Brayshaw SLOW, Viney SLOW, JONES & SALEM, not that quick!!

The Rest?? other than Petracca who still needs developing, we are stiil A SLOW one paced Midfield! Clarry has ultra quick hands, too fast for some of our guys to fully utilize! 

Will be lucky to make Sept 2017 with this Midfield! IMO

Who are you calling slow?

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I really wouldn't consider any of them slow but I will agree Dangerfield,Motlop and some over AFL players are quicker.

I still like Hunt on a HBF / Wing.

 

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11 minutes ago, picket fence said:

You are Kidding arent you Biff?? Brayshaw SLOW, Viney SLOW, JONES & SALEM, not that quick!!

The Rest?? other than Petracca who still needs developing, we are stiil A SLOW one paced Midfield! Clarry has ultra quick hands, too fast for some of our guys to fully utilize! 

Will be lucky to make Sept 2017 with this Midfield! IMO

I agree we do need some leg speed but where do we find it, no first rounder this year? 

 

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17 minutes ago, Earl Hood said:

I agree we do need some leg speed but where do we find it, no first rounder this year? 

 

Can I suggest we get them to watch the beginning and end scenes of the Gallipoli Film during off season.

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On 4/4/2011 at 2:12 PM, Snoopy said:

Rhino's excellent post highlights just how inexperienced we were compared to the Hawks on Sunday. But it only tells a part of the story. There are two other fundamentals a team needs to be genuinely successful.

You need a dominant midfield.

You need stars.

You can do your own analysis of the second of these points (which highlights why we did better against the Swans with similar "stats") and I'll tell you something about the first.

I think there are five pretty dominant midfields in the competition - Collingwood, Geelong, Hawthorn, Saints and Western Bulldogs. It's no surprise that most believe these teams will fill the top four spots - win the midifield and you'll usually win the game.

Here are some stats for you. I've taken the top five midfielders in each of these teams and looked at the number of years they've spent on an AFL list and the number of games they've played. Then I've compared them with us. You will most likely disagree with some of the selections but the conclusion is frightening whichever way you cook it.

Collingwood (Swan, Pendlebury, Thomas, Ball, Beams). 35 years on the list and 583 games.

Geelong (Bartel, Ling, Selwood, Johnson, Corey). 49 years on the list and 871 games.

Hawks (Burgoyne, Mitchell, Sewell, Rioli, Lewis). 41 years on the list and 669 games.

Saints (Dal Santo, Hayes, Montagna, Jones, Ray). 45 years on the list and 789 games.

Bulldogs (Boyd, Cross, Cooney, Griffen, Higgins). 42 years on the list and 676 games.

And now for us....... (Moloney, McKenzie, Scully, Trengove, Sylvia)** 24 years on the list and 277 games. BTW, we were missing three of these players on Sunday!!

For all those that think these figures are just excuses for losing and accepting poor performances - your dreamin'.

We've a way to go boys so like has been said before - enjoy the ride or get off now and join again at a later station when some of this shite is behind us.

*years on list maybe a little rubbery but you get the drift.

** edit to remove Morton and add Sylvia.

This is insightful and still rings true, despite the cringy bolded part.

So who are the updated Melbourne midfield prospects? Viney, Tyson, Jones, Vince, Brayshaw, Oliver? Flash forward 18 months when we're hopefully going to be challenging, Vince and Jones will be nearing the end, which leaves us with Viney, Tyson, Brayshaw and Oliver. Petracca might be floating through the midfield too. That would have competed for a flag (in the right age demographic) in the late 2000s/early 2010s, but the GWS juggernaut has changed the game and midfield depth and quality is far deeper than even 2011, with multiple midfield options required now, rather than just the five. This is why I've been saying all year that I think we're still at least another midfielder or two, away from being able to compete with GWS.

Let's look at GWS' midfield: Coniglio, Shiel, Ward, Greene, Griffen, Scully and Hopper. And that's not including their gun half backs in Kelly, Whitfield, Wilson, Williams and Kennedy.

The other thing worth noting about those above 5 midfields in retrospect, is the two midfields that have had prolonged success contained a similar element. Both Geelong and Hawthorn were made up of physical, hard-edged players, with a mixture of x-factor and skill. And looking at the midfields of the Saints and the Bulldogs, it's pretty clear why they never won a flag. Jones, Ray and Higgins were never in the same calibre as Lewis or Corey.

So, what does this mean? We need to go hard for another mid this year and next year. I hope we're still into Mitchell and Prestia. I think we need to land one of them.

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1 hour ago, picket fence said:

You are Kidding arent you Biff?? Brayshaw SLOW, Viney SLOW, JONES & SALEM, not that quick!!

The Rest?? other than Petracca who still needs developing, we are stiil A SLOW one paced Midfield! Clarry has ultra quick hands, too fast for some of our guys to fully utilize! 

Will be lucky to make Sept 2017 with this Midfield! IMO

I think our inside players are all around average except for Tyson (who is slow) and Viney (who is just above average).

At Hawthorn, Hodge, Mitchell and Lewis are all slower than Tyson. For the Swans, none of Kennedy, Parker and Mitchell are speedsters.

IMO we need to add some outside pace and class to compliment our engine room.

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2 hours ago, picket fence said:

And so the story goes!!

Well, after watching teams that have outstanding quick decisive mids in the final series so far, I have to say.....

That unless we have game breaking ultra Quick mids.. we aint going anywhere!!

Jones, Viney, Tyson aren't quick enough!

Not like Geelong, Doggies, Greater Western mids!! 

We will really struggle to compete if we are to challenge for the 8 next year.

Some solutions....

For a start, Jayden Hunt moves to the midfield!

Garlett also rotates but beyond that, and other than Clarry Choo Choo's Lightning hands.. we still will not match it with the fleet of foot!!

This will be a major problem I believe!!

I don't think this is true. GWS are quick, but particularly off half back with Scully, Kelly, Wilson and Williams. Shiel is quickish and Coniglio isn't slow, but it's on the outside that they're fast. And very few of their outside mids play on the inside, starting in the centre square. Neither should Hunt.

Also, as per my post above, the Hawthorn midfield isn't quick. Their outside mids are though. And outside mids play off half back and the wings. We need more of these extractors that win the contested possession consistently and give off to these quicker outside types.

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17 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

I think our inside players are all around average except for Tyson (who is slow) and Viney (who is just above average).

At Hawthorn, Hodge, Mitchell and Lewis are all slower than Tyson. For the Swans, none of Kennedy, Parker and Mitchell are speedsters.

IMO we need to add some outside pace and class to compliment our engine room.

Add Jack to that list of guys who isn't that quick either. I'd say he's average.

And this has become an interesting debate across 2016. Do we need outside pace or backs more? Now that our defence seems a lot more settled, I think the debate must change to is it outside pace we need or more inside ball-winning ability? Obviously, we need both, but what's the priority? I think inside ball winners who can bring others (read - outside players) into the game.

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A little extra speed trained into each of half a dozen players would have a dramatic impact, no doubt.

However... Hawthorn, Geelong and Sydney have all demonstrated that a team of mostly 'not especially fast' players can be well complemented by just a handful of fast, creative types and a game plan that means people know where to find them when they are needed.

Importantly, it is still possible to seek out those types pretty late in the draft - many are 'flashy but inconsistent' at 18 and don't come into risk-averse early round thoughts. 

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