If Nathan Jones goes...

[Brayshaws' Helmet 143]

If you're including Jones in this talent group, i must disagree with you. Jones was drafted in 2005 and has had 5 years to develop and mature. He's had plenty of time to show us what he's got, he no longer has 'potential' as he should have reached said level by now, if there were improvement left in him. Too little, too late if we're waiting for Jones to 'fully mature'.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME!

the guy is what, 22, 23?

i bet you didn't know who dane swan was when he was that age

this whole thread is ridiculous, i can't believe the amount of people that want to see him go.

The amount of supporters that are casting him off just because of his B&F rating is so dumb. Threads like this make me hate demonland 80% of the time

[daisycutter 29,621]

ARE YOU KIDDING ME!

the guy is what, 22, 23?

i bet you didn't know who dane swan was when he was that age

this whole thread is ridiculous, i can't believe the amount of people that want to see him go.

The amount of supporters that are casting him off just because of his B&F rating is so dumb. Threads like this make me hate demonland 80% of the time

I agree with you

I don't WANT to see him go

But, I can see why he MIGHT become a trading possibility (hence the speculation)

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

ARE YOU KIDDING ME!

the guy is what, 22, 23?

i bet you didn't know who dane swan was when he was that age

this whole thread is ridiculous, i can't believe the amount of people that want to see him go.

The amount of supporters that are casting him off just because of his B&F rating is so dumb. Threads like this make me hate demonland 80% of the time

Me too.

Unfortunately some of the manic-depressives who populate these threads, sadly, make some good points. There have been players we didn't want to see go, who have proven that it's better to do SOMETHING with the data you have, than nothing at all.

i.e. For every Woey to Collingwood for Daniel Bell (pick 14), there's a couple of other good ones like Trav for Grimes, Brock for Gysberts (which was a choice made for us). They can't ALL succeed, but at least the footy department is actually putting their balls on the line. That's what I reckon it comes down to... trusting that the footy department know what they're doing (if they DO in fact trade Nath). And hey, the data is that it worked pretty damn well for Hawthorn (Rawlings and Hay for high picks, and neither player did squat).

The trick here on demonland, is to not suddenly have the delusion that most here are lumped with... in that they believe they are, in fact, running the footy department.

The cranky old farts over at 'ology (or at least one of them), love to stick it to us here for being positive about MFC, and for actually supporting players who are on our list. The last laugh is with people like you though. You ARE a supporter, and are acting accordingly.

If only some of the know-it-alls would follow suit.

PS... your comparison of Swan to Jones is a huge call. Just sayin' :D

[Radar Detector 1,347]

If you're including Jones in this talent group, i must disagree with you. Jones was drafted in 2005 and has had 5 years to develop and mature. He's had plenty of time to show us what he's got, he no longer has 'potential' as he should have reached said level by now, if there were improvement left in him. Too little, too late if we're waiting for Jones to 'fully mature'.

I'm not sure that this is necessarily true. Dane Swan was a very similar player to Jones at the same stage of his career with many of the same knocks - one-paced, average disposal, one-dimensional - but he has really come on over the past three years to be the best player in the comp this year.

If Jones wants to go elsewhere to get opportunities, that's one thing, but to seek to trade him for a pick would be a strange decision IMO. We get a bit carried away on here expecting all the high draft picks we select to become champions of the game but many of them become nothing better than serviceable. Some of our higher draft picks in recent years have included Bell, Bate, Dunn, Maric, Strauss and Jones himself. And those drafts weren't compromised. Sometimes a bird in the hand...

[Mousey 47]

Adam White on twitter just posted-

TRADE TALK: Melbourne midfielder Nathan Jones could be at a new club next year.

Nothing new of course but when he posts something it usually has legs..

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Your points are valid but do you wish he leaves or the club offers himas a trade? I surely don't especially this draft.. I would be very surprised if we have any more than 4 picks outside rookie picks.The talent could still take a few years to fully mature.Your comments please.

Old's post sums it up well.

[Hobbits's 17]

ARE YOU KIDDING ME!

the guy is what, 22, 23?

i bet you didn't know who dane swan was when he was that age

this whole thread is ridiculous, i can't believe the amount of people that want to see him go.

The amount of supporters that are casting him off just because of his B&F rating is so dumb. Threads like this make me hate demonland 80% of the time

take a bex and lie down. most of it is discussion to improve the list i would have thought. people's opinions. in fact you agree with the opening poster yet you call it ridiculous. go figure /

I agree with you

I don't WANT to see him go

But, I can see why he MIGHT become a trading possibility (hence the speculation)

much better post of good reason. realising the possiblity and seeing improvement possiblities in the list for pursuit of a premiership.

The trick here on demonland, is to not suddenly have the delusion that most here are lumped with... in that they believe they are, in fact, running the footy department.

If only some of the know-it-alls would follow suit.

why don't you name them ! some of them wouldn't know you have put them in that know-it-all-basket.

Adam White on twitter just posted-

TRADE TALK: Melbourne midfielder Nathan Jones could be at a new club next year.

Nothing new of course but when he posts something it usually has legs..

thanks for the update mousey. honestly some need to wake up and smell the roses.

Jones has reportedly spoken to Bailey re: his game - if you believe d.Barrett.

Jones has gone to Sydney for a few days - his own tweet.

Adam White twitters this ^ re: mousey's post

the tweet says he "could be at a new club" - but he might not, he may still be a demon. going by above he may be being shopped. other posters have mentioned he played 22 games, yet he finished 13th or 15th in b&f. he is limited in terms of positions and tasks, who found himself dropped late in the season before a reprieve. he has some value but when our youngsters get game time and improve he will be fringe at best.

[Brayshaws' Helmet 143]

take a bex and lie down. most of it is discussion to improve the list i would have thought. people's opinions. in fact you agree with the opening poster yet you call it ridiculous. go figure /

much better post of good reason. realising the possiblity and seeing improvement possiblities in the list for pursuit of a premiership.

why don't you name them ! some of them wouldn't know you have put them in that know-it-all-basket.

thanks for the update mousey. honestly some need to wake up and smell the roses.

Jones has reportedly spoken to Bailey re: his game - if you believe d.Barrett.

Jones has gone to Sydney for a few days - his own tweet.

Adam White twitters this ^ re: mousey's post

the tweet says he "could be at a new club" - but he might not, he may still be a demon. going by above he may be being shopped. other posters have mentioned he played 22 games, yet he finished 13th or 15th in b&f. he is limited in terms of positions and tasks, who found himself dropped late in the season before a reprieve. he has some value but when our youngsters get game time and improve he will be fringe at best.

Firstly, what is bex? And considering the condescending tone that you have put in this post, i will answer for dapper and say you are one of the know it alls he is talking about.

Wasn't trying to have a go at the original poster, as i don't even know what it says, i was having a go at the guy who said Jones was already past his prime. There are countless players who have taken more than 5 yrs to reach their "full potential"

[Hobbits's 17]

Firstly, what is bex? And considering the condescending tone that you have put in this post, i will answer for dapper and say you are one of the know it alls he is talking about.

Wasn't trying to have a go at the original poster, as i don't even know what it says, i was having a go at the guy who said Jones was already past his prime. There are countless players who have taken more than 5 yrs to reach their "full potential"

firstly, bex is a pain killer.

secondly, that was my first post so he can't be talking about me. but in hindsight maybe he is now.

finally, i know you were not having a go at op, because you agree with him on jones - which was my point !

[dee-luded 2,959]

Firstly, what is bex? And considering the condescending tone that you have put in this post, i will answer for dapper and say you are one of the know it alls he is talking about.

Wasn't trying to have a go at the original poster, as i don't even know what it says, i was having a go at the guy who said Jones was already past his prime. There are countless players who have taken more than 5 yrs to reach their "full potential"

http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/collection/database/?irn=319759

("from wikipedia")

A Cup Of Tea, A Bex and A Good Lie Down was a comedy revue that opened at Sydney's Phillip Street Theatre in 1965. It was the longest running show at the Theatre in 1966. The cast included John Ewart, Gloria Dawn, Ruth Cracknell and Reg Livermore. Written by John Mckellar.

The play's subject matter was Bex, a strong compound analgesic in the form of "A.P.C." or aspirin-phenacetin-caffeine tablets or powder. Bex powders were the housewife’s drug of choice in the 1950s and 1960s until they were shown to be highly addictive and responsible for causing kidney disease when taken in large doses.

The expression 'A cup of tea, a Bex etc' seems to have gained currency through much of Australia in the post WW2 period when aspirin became readily available. It was often used in the pejorative and abbreviated form 'go and take a Bex' to indicate to an over enthusiast person that they should take a more relaxed attitude to the subject being discussed, or to soothe a frazzled housewife. As such it had currency until very recently in bar room discussions, particularly where one person became animated in expressing a point of view that was contrary to the general view point of the group.

[jayceebee31 761]

If you're including Jones in this talent group, i must disagree with you. Jones was drafted in 2005 and has had 5 years to develop and mature. He's had plenty of time to show us what he's got, he no longer has 'potential' as he should have reached said level by now, if there were improvement left in him. Too little, too late if we're waiting for Jones to 'fully mature'.

What rubbish- Jones has got a hell of alot of developing etc.. Junior only really came good when he was 27, Green has just won his first B&F @29.. You would have to be totally joking re Jones has reached his full development and maturity. Actually to have a 22 year old whom has played over 90 games already and be a sturdy influence for Scully,Trengove, Gysberts,Tapscott,Blease etc.. is really a HUGE bonus.We ,or most of us are talking up Grimes as a leader of the club and he his only 8 months younger than Jones and played only 26 games in total- compared with Jones(92).Jones has probably got another 9 years of football in him..I rest my case for now..and some posters (supporters) wanted to get rid of Green etc.. years ago too.

Edited September 10, 2010 by jayceebee31

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

why don't you name them ! some of them wouldn't know you have put them in that know-it-all-basket.

Oh they know.... booooy do they know. The disagreements I have with them generally involve revenge that includes 2000+ words in response!

Honestly though, it's the majority of people here that think they know more than they do. The ones who ACTUALLY do know tend to stop posting as they know it's a fruitless battle of opinions, that descends... in some cases even with mods who think they know everything (and yet get it wrong about the same as everyone else)... into insults. I'll name one that was a disgrace and has since been moved on... Y_M. That guy, funny as he could be, was a plague. Best thing the mods have ever done, getting rid of him (assuming he's not still lurking under a different I.D.).

Firstly, what is bex? And considering the condescending tone that you have put in this post, i will answer for dapper and say you are one of the know it alls he is talking about.

I haven't had a close look at his posts, but I would say the thing to remember here is that there's certainly grounds for people to discuss Jones' trading. Firstly the media is talking about it, which means it would be ridiculous to suggest that we don't. Secondly the guy has been up until the last couple of years a possession-winning midfielder, who has since been thrust into a tagging role. I think if he rates himself as highly as you and I do, he'd be well within his rights to ask for a trade to a club where he can do a Luke Ball and get some more opportunities.

Bottom line... someone saying the kid has no improvement left in him, or little improvement, is probably playing the percentages, as he's not the perfect modern day footballer and has physically developed already. But if you handled EVERY player on the list this way, you'd have a pretty inexperienced list. I reckon Jones WANTS to stay at the club, just not in his current role. I reckon the club WANTS him to stay, but to improve in the areas they need him to improve in, which maybe they feel he won't do. There are times a fresh start may bring about a second-wind in a kid's career, and I can't help but feel that will be the case with Nath. Or maybe the THREAT of leaving his first club will be enough to make him redouble his efforts. In any case, I reckon you and I agree that it's certainly possible he has improvement in him, but that maybe a trade wouldn't be the worst thing?

In terms of 2010 alone, I will get off the fence and say this. If he does go and is replaced by a kid, it'll take up until about round 6 for people to scream that they want him back as our kids get pummelled again. Then if we do make finals, we will start with Gys, Scully and Trengove in the middle... all of whom are 19 and will get rag-dolled... and the Jones-lovers will cry foul again. In a perfect world I'd say let him have the next couple of seasons to find that extra gear, while giving us that hard-bodied stuff in the middle, at which time his market value would likely be higher... THEN move him on. After a kind of indifferent season this year, we might be getting unders for him. Especially in a compromised draft.

[daisycutter 29,621]

I haven't had a close look at his posts, but I would say the thing to remember here is that there's certainly grounds for people to discuss Jones' trading. Firstly the media is talking about it, which means it would be ridiculous to suggest that we don't. Secondly the guy has been up until the last couple of years a possession-winning midfielder, who has since been thrust into a tagging role. I think if he rates himself as highly as you and I do, he'd be well within his rights to ask for a trade to a club where he can do a Luke Ball and get some more opportunities.

Bottom line... someone saying the kid has no improvement left in him, or little improvement, is probably playing the percentages, as he's not the perfect modern day footballer and has physically developed already. But if you handled EVERY player on the list this way, you'd have a pretty inexperienced list. I reckon Jones WANTS to stay at the club, just not in his current role. I reckon the club WANTS him to stay, but to improve in the areas they need him to improve in, which maybe they feel he won't do. There are times a fresh start may bring about a second-wind in a kid's career, and I can't help but feel that will be the case with Nath. Or maybe the THREAT of leaving his first club will be enough to make him redouble his efforts. In any case, I reckon you and I agree that it's certainly possible he has improvement in him, but that maybe a trade wouldn't be the worst thing?

In terms of 2010 alone, I will get off the fence and say this. If he does go and is replaced by a kid, it'll take up until about round 6 for people to scream that they want him back as our kids get pummelled again. Then if we do make finals, we will start with Gys, Scully and Trengove in the middle... all of whom are 19 and will get rag-dolled... and the Jones-lovers will cry foul again. In a perfect world I'd say let him have the next couple of seasons to find that extra gear, while giving us that hard-bodied stuff in the middle, at which time his market value would likely be higher... THEN move him on. After a kind of indifferent season this year, we might be getting unders for him. Especially in a compromised draft.

Well put Dapper. A considered, objective, balanced and frank appraisal of the situation

[sylvinator 96]

If Jones did hypothetically decided to quit melbourne and leave to another club because he is insecure of his place in the team going forward, I would be very disappointed in him. He's 22 yrs old and we've given him 90 games afl experience. we played him in all 22 games this year. yes, he got dropped once to first emergency (still played that week), but lots of players get dropped occasionally.

If Jones improves and plays well enough, there will always be a place in the team for him. He has to back himself.

Would be the weak option to cut and run bc he thinks things might be tougher in the future. It's what Luke Ball did, when he was no longer handed games on a silver platter at StKilda. I think Jones is better than that, and i'll back him to re-sign with the club.

[H_T 3,049]

Well put Dapper. A considered, objective, balanced and frank appraisal of the situation

Indeed. Food for thought.

[Hannabal 4]

Secondly the guy has been up until the last couple of years a possession-winning midfielder, who has since been thrust into a tagging role.

Then if we do make finals, we will start with Gys, Scully and Trengove in the middle... all of whom are 19 and will get rag-dolled... and the Jones-lovers will cry foul again. In a perfect world I'd say let him have the next couple of seasons to find that extra gear, while giving us that hard-bodied stuff in the middle, at which time his market value would likely be higher...

I agree with 90% of the above. However, I wouldn't say that Jones has ever reached the stage of being an accumulator of the footy, or "possession winning mid", although I understand that you're talking more about 'type' than efficiency; and I also don't believe that anyone, other than the pretty dumb, would be complaining about not having Jones in the side next year if we make finals and Gysberts, Scully, Trengove, Tapscott, et al have had plenty of games put into them. I suspect that we'll all be rapt to have made significant progress while still developing our youth. I accept that many consider Jones to still be 'youth', but he's not part of the core that has been earmarked for a premiership tilt.

Jones is a B- to C grade player. I've already seen Gysberts show more potential in 3 games than Jones in 90. Gysberts showed poise and a footy brain under pressure that escapes the likes of Jones, especially his delayed handball in the centre of the ground at the G. Most players would have given off at first opportunity, including Jones, but Gysberts delayed his handball until Bruce had bypassed the immediate opponent. It allowed Bruce to run into open space and set up a goal with a mark inside 50. It's hard to teach that. It's instinctive.

Goals from turnovers has never been as high. Clubs are trying to build sides that eradicate turnovers. For this reason, Jones position in the team will always be borderline. He's the type of player that regularly turns the ball over.

I have no problem keeping Jones as he's a handy player, but I'm ambivalent because he'll have to be depth if we're to ever be any good. For the reasons you mention, the timing probably isn't great for him to leave right now. I'd also prefer that he leave in 1-2 years, but I'll not be concerned if it happens this trade period.

Imo, those that think Jones can greatly improve as a footballer from this point of his career are deluding themselves. I wouldn't say that about all footballers, but Jones doesn't have specific attributes that can improve by much, as he's getting just about all that's there out of each skill set. He's not going to run any faster, he's not going to kick any better, as it's already improved substantially, he's not going to mark any better, he's not going to get any taller, he doesn't need to get any stronger, and I doubt that there'll be any quantum leap in his decision making. What you see is what you get. It's enough to be a 150 game B-C grade player, but he'll be depth in the best teams, which is what we aspire to be.

[old55 23,623]

I see Campbell Brown is weighing up 2 years at 600K at Hawthorn against 1.2M over 3 years at GC. That's what the Jones decision is likely to entail - anyone want to give him 1M over 3 years that he'll probably be offered elsewhere? It's that simple.

[Demon_Tingles 211]

Nath Jones Twitter

Cruising home today, sydney ya been good to me! Im sold!! I'll be back

[45HG 1,542]

Nath Jones Twitter

Cruising home today, sydney ya been good to me! Im sold!! I'll be back

I said the same thing about Rome...but I don't think Roma are looking to sign me at present.

[Demon_Tingles 211]

yes but you didnt say you were looking at options to leave australia i would have thought. Either way I didnt say anything about it I just posted it.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

If Jones did hypothetically decided to quit melbourne and leave to another club because he is insecure of his place in the team going forward, I would be very disappointed in him.

I was thinking about that. I reckon though if you scratch the surface you'll find that it's not that simple. I would absolutely assume the club WANTS to keep him and he WANTS to stay. It's the details that make things muddy. And I don't feel the need in any way shape or form to be bitter about a player pursuing opportunities at a club that needs a plug-and-play midfielder, where he'll likely get more money, more matches and thus match payments. It has nothing to do with his qualities as a player, but the situation the list is in, and I wouldn't be bitter at all... I'd be wishing him luck and cheering him on... (except against us obviously)

I agree with 90% of the above.

Yup. Likewise. As usual, I could go over every second line you wrote and delve into it a bit more... but our mods have been gently persuading me to cut down. Suffice to say I reckon your rating of footy-brain vs toughness is different from mine. However I have a sneaking suspicion that as the rules change even further, toughness will become less and less important. Unless it's a wet day. If Peake can have the season he's had, it doesn't bode well for good old fashioned in and unders.

Imo, those that think Jones can greatly improve as a footballer from this point of his career are deluding themselves.

Ok. So to go with the diagnoses of more "glass-half-full" supporters above... what would you say is the difference between Swan and Jones that made Dane kick on and Jones plateau?

I would have thought pace and skill are the same. Not many have Swan's footy brain, but Jones is no slouch when it comes to vision. Execution is his problem, but then Swan's kick is pretty ugly too. Is it engine? Your new-fangled "cruising speed?"

If, as I suspect, the biggest bridge between Jones and being a solid B grader with the occasional A-grade game is endurance (among other things), then are we really deluded when we say he might do a Moloney and discover a professionalism in the second half of his career? Maybe become a pacier, tougher Swan?

It's probably a very low-percentage thing, I know... and I don't think your answer really changes anything particularly... but it's interesting to see what people are leaning towards with predictions.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Nath Jones Twitter

Cruising home today, sydney ya been good to me! Im sold!! I'll be back

I don't mean to be casting aspersions here, but Jones on the SCG would be a very good fit. Especially with Kirk, and soon Bolton retiring.

A trade to Sydney could bite us on the bum pretty bad.

[Neita3000 37]

Jones surely won't leave.

Just trying to bump up his contract and get a bit more solidarity in the side.

Seriously though if Jones is unsure about his position in the best 22 he should train his but off over the pre-season and prove Dean Bailey wrong. Don't do the coward thing like McLean and seek a trade. Fight for your spot

[Hannabal 4]

Yup. Likewise. As usual, I could go over every second line you wrote and delve into it a bit more... I have a sneaking suspicion that as the rules change even further, toughness will become less and less important. Unless it's a wet day. If Peake can have the season he's had, it doesn't bode well for good old fashioned in and unders.

So to go with the diagnoses of more "glass-half-full" supporters above... what would you say is the difference between Swan and Jones that made Dane kick on and Jones plateau?

I'm not sure if you're serious.

Swan averages 10+ disposals more per game than Jones, kicks many more goals, is deceptively quick, which seems to escape most people and certainly quicker than Jones, is a very good mark for his size (better than Jones), he's 5cms taller, he reads the play better and is a better decision maker. In fact he does everything better as the following stats show. There are many intangibles about this great game of ours and the waddling Swan is but one of those mysteries.

http://www.pro-stats.com.au/psw/web/compare_players?tid1=109&pid1=2006117&year1=2010&tid2=104&pid2=2002032&year2=2010

Yes you could go into every second line and delve deeper and I'd have the appropriate response each time. B)

And no, toughness will never weaken in its importance. The game is faster and harder than its ever been.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

I'm not sure if you're serious.

I only meant that Swan was (a few years ago) another slowish, not-so-skilled HB/midfielder. As suggested above his career took off seemingly out of nowhere, after he was just another player for a long time. And yes, of course his stats real well... he's become that kind of player... but many of the issues you point out with Jones (while not identical) are of a similar ilk. I just reckon if he can get his engine to keep him going a bit longer he'd be better than just a handy player. I don't mean to suggest that suddenly he'll find another gear in pace, or another 10 metres in his kick. To me it seems like endurance, and decision making are at least areas that footballers can improve in.

I am serious about the comparison of Swan's first few seasons to Jones'. In fact, he only had 6X20+ possession games in his first half-a-dozen seasons with the Pies... And in those first 6 seasons played FAR less games and showed a lot less too. Now I'm not saying that just because Swan did it, Jones will. Swan is a HUGE exception to the rule. Nor am I saying that Jones will do exactly what Swan did. Jones is a midfielder and will never be a flexible player around the ground. Of course you're right, going by what usually happens, Jones is in that no-man's-land at the moment, and his chances of becoming dominant are dwindling. But I don't think it's outside the realms of possibility that he could improve further than you see him improving.... And like you say, give him a couple more seasons and I think his market value will be FAR more impressive. His style of football just gets easier when you're 24+ and older/bigger than all the kids you're playing against, rather than the other way round, which is what he's done so far.

And no, toughness will never weaken in its importance. The game is faster and harder than its ever been.

Yes. I think what I meant was the weight of importance when you look at the slow/tough/heavy bodied types, vs the skinny, pacey outsiders. They don't get much more in-and-under than Jones... but he doesn't have that extra string to his bow. But yes, in a perfect world, you get both... Like with Scully. But obviously top-3 draft picks are required there. Usually.