The Key Position Forward debate

[The Chazz 4,077]

I know this topic has been done to death, but I want to get a few things off my chest, and as this is a public forum, there's no better place!

Still don't fully understand the urgency in regards to hunting a young, big-bodied key forward, especially if they are struggling to get a game with their current club.

Firstly, they would still be considered a project player, not unlike Stef Martin. Why would we sacrifice draft picks or even a player to trade, in order to take a risk? As I have mentioned on other posts, if we are going to target a KPF, we would be far better off paying big dollars for someone young and proven. I'm talking your Roughead, Franklin, Tippett, etc. As you can see, the type of player that I think we would be better of chasing is near mission-impossible, but if we are serious about getting a top KPF, let's get one that will make an immediate impact, not a project player. Further, shifting the likes of Garland is a ridiculous, knee-jerk reaction that so many on here would love to see. Why take one of our better defenders out of a position that he is excelling in?

This brings me on to my second point, what is wrong with what we have got??? Watts, Fitzpatrick, and maybe even Gawn, all are project players in their own right (although Watts obviously has the class factor already). They will build up over the next couple of pre-seasons, they will get better. Let's face it, if Watts develops in to the next Nick Riewoldt, we will be fine in this department, especially if Fitzy, Gawn, or even Martin can hold their own.

Look back at other Clubs that have had successful forward lines over the past decade or so (and probably even further back if you wanted to). Start with St Kilda - while Riewoldt was bacomming the superstar that he is today, they had the big G-Train to be their "General". St Kilda obviously picked him up from West Coast, and he played his part well during Riewoldt's development. While J Brown was developing at Brisbane, they had a guy named Alastair Lynch to play that General role. They were lucky as he was already on their list. Geelong picked up Mooney in 2000, who had experience and a premiership, but had bugger all else, hence them fighting hard for Ottens. They have since had Dork-ins developing over the past 3 years or so, but have had the luxury of Mooney being their General. Hawkins is starting to play pretty good footy (far from a star), but it will be interesting to see what the Cats do in the coming years when Mooney, Otto etc move on.

The other premiers in the Naughtys - Essendon (Lloyd), Sydney (Hall) and West Coast (Lynch), always had a KPF to play the General role, but where these clubs failed (in my opinion), was that the developing KPF they had didn't take the next step when needed to. As a result, these Clubs are struggling now, and have been for a couple of years.

Hawthorn were lucky enough to have 2 KPF developing at the same time, and both reach that A-class level around the same time, 2008, and we all know the result that year.

2 other Clubs that need to be mentioned - Western Bulldogs and Collingwood, both haven't really had a power forward over the past 5 years (although it could be argued that A Rocca was this player). Both Clubs have been in the top 4 or so for the past few years, but neither have won a flag. The Dogs obviously chased Hall this year, and let's face it, they look a better team when he is up and firing. I think this is significant proof that a Clube really does need at least 1 KPF to win a flag.

So, where does this leave Melbourne? Do we chase a ready-made KPF, take a punt with a early 20-something player from another team, or do we look out in to our own paddock and be patient? Personally, I think we have got our main KPF, our General, that can play the number1 forward role while Watts is developing. The man, Brad Green. Ok, he is just as valuable on the wing or across half back as he is in our forward line, but let's think about it, he is nearing 30 years of age. At this stage, he may have 2 years left in him, but we might be able to squeeze 1 or 2 years extra out of him playing him as our Full Forward (a la G-Train, Alastair Lynch, etc). He has proven this year that with the right delivery, he is more than capable of kicking around 60 goals a year (if only playing FF). If we could manage to get 4 years out of him at FF, what will J Watts be like at the end of that time (and even in the bnext 2 years)? In that time, we wil have the ability to develop Fitzy, or even another project player from this years draft (by the looks of it there are a number of decent talls that are worthy of a first round pick).

Our premiership window wont be open until 2012 at the very earliest (even then it will only be slightly adjar). In 2012, Watts would be in to his 4th year, and ironically, Riewoldt had his first "big season" 4 years after he was drafted. So, when we can consider ourselves a threat, a true contender (2013+), Green will still have 2 years or so left, Watts will be a man by then (he's still only a boy!), we will have 1 or 2 other KPF developing (and maybe even pushing our best 22), and other goal kickers like Jurrah and Petterd to help. A midfield that oozes class, and a top class backline. Where does this leave guys like Bate? Safe for the next 2 years, after that, it doesn't look good (Schwab hinted a while back that the great Clubs have around 14 players that can rotate in to the midfield).

For the Demonlander's that can't be bothered waiting for this to happen, maybe we should have chased Bradshaw (or even Hall for that matter) for that "quick fix" that we would so dearly love, but a fix that would harm the Club's future plans. Hopefully after you read my above words that you can see the big picture, and maybe, just maybe develop that patience that is required to produce a great team. I've waited 30+ years, others a lot longer, but another couple wont hurt us, especially if it means years of success rather than the rollercoaster ride we used to have in the late 90's-early 2000's where we were in finals one year, out the next.

I hope the above makes sense. I too get frustrated with this great Club from time to time, and do question some of Bailey's tactics, but I still think we have everything in place, and the right personnel to make this current group one of the greatest sides of all time. The impact that GC17 and GWS make could determine this statement, but as Tony Shaw continues to say, we are the best placed Victorian side to handle the introduction of the new teams, especially over the next 5 years.

Edit - to keep Thomo happy by getting rid of the 's at the end of some players surname.

Edited July 22, 2010 by billy2803

[No16 1]

Great post.

I love Green in the forward line and it will definitely lengthen is career if he finishes up there.

Many people here are looking for a player in the David Neitz mold, not necessarily a player that is going to kick the most goals for this club but someone that demands one of the bigger bodied forwards to go to them relieving the pressure of our developing forwards as they develop strength.

Opposition coaches will usually send a like type defender to Green to cover is pace.

Unfortunately in recent times our KPF have not come on like we would have liked... if only one of Nick Smith, Luke Molan or Michael Newton became serviceable (not necessarily dominant) it would help the development of our young guys. I am not one to do the coulda, shoulda woulda's so what is done is done and we are in a position where we need a big bodied forward to relieve the pressure.

Miller played this role at the start of the year but yeah....

The only thing that will ensure that we do not need this big forward is a game plan that gets the ball in quick and honors quick leads with precise kicks. Bombing it in to the top of the square or to a pack in the forward line will fail most times without a big bodied forward/

[Guest Thomo]

I'm talking your Roughead's, Franklin's, Tippett's, etc.

Riewoldt had his first "big season" 4 years after he was drafted. .

I don't understand why people write like this. There is only one Jarryd Roughhead, Franklin and Tippett, and none of them are mine. It's one of my pet hates.

And Riewoldt won St Kilda B&F in his second year.

[Dee-licious 1,949]

Looking at where Melbourne is heading and looking at the forward lines that we have but out in the VFL I think we are getting there.

Watts (196), Pettard (185) and Jurrah (188) would be the basis of the fowardline - That is me being biased thinking Bate (192) wont continue to develop.

Throw into that forwardline an aging Green (184), Davey (177) and Sylvia (186) you already have what could be a very formiddable forwardline.

However, as this debate is about KPP lets look at Melbourne's options. I can understand that people are going to want a big tall forward (190+). This leaves us with Gawn, Fitzpatrick, PJ, Martin, Miller, Newton, Morton, Dunn and Bate.

Fitzpatrick will not be able to be our number 1 ruckman in his own right. Gawn at 208 is too much of an advantage for us therefore Fitzpatrick will need to play a secondary role. He sees himself in this role:

What type of player are you?

Versatile, athletic, tall, key-position player (forward / back / ruck).

and Casey have been using him pushing up forward.

I believe that he will be our 2nd tower down forward and with his speed and height alongside Jack Watts we could have the makings of a very formidable forwardline.

If he doesnt come up there are many but part players who can construct a forwardline.

[Freak 100]

I don't understand why people write like this. There is only one Jarryd Roughhead, Franklin and Tippett, and none of them are mine. It's one of my pet hates.

And Riewoldt won St Kilda B&F in his second year.

i love guys like taylor walker but getting big names to change clubs isn't easy. i mean our last big name was moloney and he wasn't that big at the time.

[The Chazz 4,077]

I don't understand why people write like this. There is only one Jarryd Roughhead, Franklin and Tippett, and none of them are mine. It's one of my pet hates.

And Riewoldt won St Kilda B&F in his second year.

Says a lot for how they were travelling that year!

2004 was the year he put his stamp on the game.

Thanks for your quality input in to this thread though. The joys of public forums!

[The Chazz 4,077]

i love guys like taylor walker but getting big names to change clubs isn't easy. i mean our last big name was moloney and he wasn't that big at the time.

Moloney only came to us via the Ottens trade. Wouldn't be at Melbourne if Geelong didn't want Otto.

[Theo 272]

Looking at where Melbourne is heading and looking at the forward lines that we have but out in the VFL I think we are getting there.

Watts (196), Pettard (185) and Jurrah (188) would be the basis of the fowardline - That is me being biased thinking Bate (192) wont continue to develop.

Throw into that forwardline an aging Green (184), Davey (177) and Sylvia (186) you already have what could be a very formiddable forwardline.

However, as this debate is about KPP lets look at Melbourne's options. I can understand that people are going to want a big tall forward (190+). This leaves us with Gawn, Fitzpatrick, PJ, Martin, Miller, Newton, Morton, Dunn and Bate.

Fitzpatrick will not be able to be our number 1 ruckman in his own right. Gawn at 208 is too much of an advantage for us therefore Fitzpatrick will need to play a secondary role. He sees himself in this role:

What type of player are you?

Versatile, athletic, tall, key-position player (forward / back / ruck).

and Casey have been using him pushing up forward.

I believe that he will be our 2nd tower down forward and with his speed and height alongside Jack Watts we could have the makings of a very formidable forwardline.

If he doesnt come up there are many but part players who can construct a forwardline.

Agree that Fitzpatrick is earmarked for a forward role. We have our Mark LeCras types in Pettard and Green. Jurrah and Watts have that x-factor that clubs will really worry about.

I think we just need a quality smart footballer that maybe able to play both ends of the ground when needed. Preferably someone with a strong frame who is versatile and a strong contested mark. Whether it be someone in the mould of a Brian Lake or a Harry Taylor or a Brad Gilbert it doesen't really matter as long as it is a quality player that would be a tough match-up and could influence the outcome of the game.

To be honest I am more concerned with our defence as Warnock is struggling at the moment and Rivers is not a good contested mark. Another Key back and a running half back ala Peter Walsh would be handy for the future.

Top this off with a ruck-rover type like an Adam Goodes and we would be thereabouts for a premiership in the not to distant future.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Theo

[GRUN DEE 69]

Neitz started back and won All-Australian selection at CHB. Carey said he was one of the best CHB he played on.

Garland could fit a similiar mould if we try him forward. Bailey needs to try him at full-forward for the last 6 games. Warnock and Cheney can cover his spot down back.

We try Garland forward or we go after a Rhys Stanley at seasons end. I say Stanley because he is difficult to match up on. Has the height, great mark and lead. Needs opportunity in a developing side!

[Demonator 93]

Neitz started back and won All-Australian selection at CHB. Carey said he was one of the best CHB he played on.

Garland could fit a similiar mould if we try him forward. Bailey needs to try him at full-forward for the last 6 games. Warnock and Cheney can cover his spot down back.

We try Garland forward or we go after a Rhys Stanley at seasons end. I say Stanley because he is difficult to match up on. Has the height, great mark and lead. Needs opportunity in a developing side!

Speaking of getting an opportunity in a developing side - I really like the look of Aaron Cornelius from Brisbane. Not getting much of a go up here obviously because of Brown and Fevola. I have seen quite a few of his games for the SunCoast Lions and I think he looks like a real prospect. Whether or not Brisbane would be willing to let him go just yet is another thing - but he might want more of an opportunity in a side like ours where he'd probably be our number 1 tall target?! Originally from Tassie I think, so even though Vic is not exactly 'home'....it's definitely closer?!

[sylvinator 96]

Could David Hale be the answer to our problems.

Bailey has articulated very clearly that one missing link in the forward line is a big bodied tall forward.

David Hale is 201cm, 103kg. 127 games, 117 goals is pretty decent ratio considering the guy has mostly played 50% forward 50% ruck. 26 years old, so definitely not too old.

We really need a 2nd ruckman as well, so 2 birds with one stone. PJ is crap as a forward, while Hale is a genuine big target.

I think Hale could possibly be the 2nd Ruck/forward we were looking for. Is certainly talented as a past top 10 draft pick.

And most importantly, is on the outer at NM, so might be looking for greater opportunities. Goldstein and McIntosh are ahead of him in the ruck. Petrie ahead of him up forward. Probably wouldn't cost an arm and a leg

[The Chazz 4,077]

Agree that Fitzpatrick is earmarked for a forward role. We have our Mark LeCras types in Pettard and Green. Jurrah and Watts have that x-factor that clubs will really worry about.

I think we just need a quality smart footballer that maybe able to play both ends of the ground when needed. Preferably someone with a strong frame who is versatile and a strong contested mark. Whether it be someone in the mould of a Brian Lake or a Harry Taylor or a Brad Gilbert it doesen't really matter as long as it is a quality player that would be a tough match-up and could influence the outcome of the game.

To be honest I am more concerned with our defence as Warnock is struggling at the moment and Rivers is not a good contested mark. Another Key back and a running half back ala Peter Walsh would be handy for the future.

Top this off with a ruck-rover type like an Adam Goodes and we would be thereabouts for a premiership in the not to distant future.

Why do we need one of these types? How many Clubs have won flags with this type of player?

If you really have your heart set on someone like that, and especially the Goodes-type, it there anything wrong with a bloke named Cale Morton?

[The Chazz 4,077]

Neitz started back and won All-Australian selection at CHB. Carey said he was one of the best CHB he played on.

Garland could fit a similiar mould if we try him forward. Bailey needs to try him at full-forward for the last 6 games. Warnock and Cheney can cover his spot down back.

We try Garland forward or we go after a Rhys Stanley at seasons end. I say Stanley because he is difficult to match up on. Has the height, great mark and lead. Needs opportunity in a developing side!

Why do we need Garland to play forward?

Sorry Jungle Dee, but this is the main reason I started this thread. I was sick to death of hearing about playing Garland up forward, especially considering he is one of our better backs. Why, just give me 1 reason that we should shift Garland from our strongest part on the field, to try him in an area where we are developing other players to fill these gaps? He's not the big body that most on here are crying out for, and will never be able to play that role.

[sylvinator 96]

Why do we need Garland to play forward?

Sorry Jungle Dee, but this is the main reason I started this thread. I was sick to death of hearing about playing Garland up forward, especially considering he is one of our better backs. Why, just give me 1 reason that we should shift Garland from our strongest part on the field, to try him in an area where we are developing other players to fill these gaps? He's not the big body that most on here are crying out for, and will never be able to play that role.

Assuming Grimes moves into the midfield eventually, Garland and Frawley are our only truely quality defenders.

Garland's pace, ability to play on small and tall, and drive from defence are important. He has a great nack for getting in the punch

Garland in badly needed in defence

[The Chazz 4,077]

Speaking of getting an opportunity in a developing side - I really like the look of Aaron Cornelius from Brisbane. Not getting much of a go up here obviously because of Brown and Fevola. I have seen quite a few of his games for the SunCoast Lions and I think he looks like a real prospect. Whether or not Brisbane would be willing to let him go just yet is another thing - but he might want more of an opportunity in a side like ours where he'd probably be our number 1 tall target?! Originally from Tassie I think, so even though Vic is not exactly 'home'....it's definitely closer?!

Why would Brisbane part with Cornelius, a bloke who was drafted in the same draft as Jack Watts, and like Watts is a developing KPF? Brown and Fev are closer to the end rather than the start, so unless they are completely mad (I guess Voss IS at the helm), they wont get rid of him.

Besides, what would you expect to have to pay for him? Keeping in mind my OP about these types of kids being project players also?

[The Chazz 4,077]

Could David Hale be the answer to our problems.

Bailey has articulated very clearly that one missing link in the forward line is a big bodied tall forward.

David Hale is 201cm, 103kg. 127 games, 117 goals is pretty decent ratio considering the guy has mostly played 50% forward 50% ruck. 26 years old, so definitely not too old.

We really need a 2nd ruckman as well, so 2 birds with one stone. PJ is crap as a forward, while Hale is a genuine big target.

I think Hale could possibly be the 2nd Ruck/forward we were looking for. Is certainly talented as a past top 10 draft pick.

And most importantly, is on the outer at NM, so might be looking for greater opportunities. Goldstein and McIntosh are ahead of him in the ruck. Petrie ahead of him up forward. Probably wouldn't cost an arm and a leg

Russian has clearly shown he can play Full Forward, but this year has obviously doing this ruck thing mostly (therefore not getting much chance to play forward, only when he drifts down in general play). My bet would be that they will play Gawn next year, but only as a 2nd ruck, then hopefully the year after, he will be up to playing as number 1 ruck, with Jamar up forward.

Before people start bashing me about rushing Gawn, how long did it take Carlton to start pumping a lot of games in to Kreuzer?

Hale = pass.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Can someone teach me how to multi-quote???!!! LOL

[Dee-licious 1,949]

Just on the Melbourne chat with Matt:

Hi Nathan, I reckon Jack Fitzpatrick will be a key forward long-term and will play as a second ruckman. He is very quick off the mark and at 200cm he could be a very dangerous target up forward long-term.

[BAMF 4,350]

I know this topic has been done to death, but I want to get a few things off my chest, and as this is a public forum, there's no better place!

Billy, I agree with you. I too don't want to trade for a tall. The one's that we want would cost us too much. I really don't want to trade any young guns or our first round pick.

Would love the club to draft one this year though. I enjoyed reading your opening post, but your whole argument is based on Watts becoming a Superstar in a few years time. What if he doesn't make it?

I Would like another 1 or maybe even 2 more talls taken this year. (and rookie a ruck)

[scully31 0]

In a few years once our forward line develops with the likes of jurrah, watts, petterd and all the young guns, matthew bate will be taking the 3rd to 4th defender and will take advantage of this and become elite. People are forgetting he is taking the number 1 or 2 defender week in week out and i believe is doing quite a good job.

He is surprisingly very quick as well.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,175]

We need a tall target that can take a contested mark. From what I have seen Stanley does not fit the bill. Green takes a good one but is more a lead up. I would have a look at Jesse White or Aaron Cornelius who are behind other forwards at their respective clubs are of good age, are realistic options and can take a contested mark. You can say why would their clubs let them go but if they are out of contract (I am unsure) and are not getting a fair crack it may not be the clubs choice.

[The Chazz 4,077]

We need a tall target that can take a contested mark. From what I have seen Stanley does not fit the bill. Green takes a good one but is more a lead up. I would have a look at Jesse White or Aaron Cornelius who are behind other forwards at their respective clubs are of good age, are realistic options and can take a contested mark. You can say why would their clubs let them go but if they are out of contract (I am unsure) and are not getting a fair crack it may not be the clubs choice.

Please read one of my earlier posts. We are dreaming if we think we can get him. The reason he is behind the other forwards at the Lions? Because he is behind Fev and Brown, PLUS he was picked up in the same draft as Watts.

FWIW - Cornelius is playing this weekend. Will be interesting to see how he goes.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Billy, I agree with you. I too don't want to trade for a tall. The one's that we want would cost us too much. I really don't want to trade any young guns or our first round pick.

Would love the club to draft one this year though. I enjoyed reading your opening post, but your whole argument is based on Watts becoming a Superstar in a few years time. What if he doesn't make it?

I Would like another 1 or maybe even 2 more talls taken this year. (and rookie a ruck)

Watts doesn't have to become a superstar. He has to bulk up and be a player that can be counted on for kicking 50 odd goals a season. He has the potential to be a superstar, so while he is still young, and because of the wraps everyone at the Club have on him, I will assume he will turn in to one.

An interesting side note on J Watts; the other week when Stynes was on TFS, Lyon asked Jimmy's son who his favourite player is. Of all the guys on our list, and especially with Scull and JT coming through this year, the boy said his favourite is Jack Watts. Not sure why I picked up on that, but it was a statement coming from the President's son, and was about a kid of the game who hasn't had a huge impact to date.

[Grandson of a gun 276]

We don't need a team of stars. Just a star team.

I don't care if Watts becomes better than Brown, Reiwoldt and Carey combined or if he is just a serviceable forward who provides a good structure. As long as we win flags!!!

FWIW- Watts will be great (at the least) at CHF. Fitzpatrick is the second big bloke earmarked for down forward. I agree the club needs another back-up and that's where drafting in another big kid should be the aim. Petterd, Jurrah, Green, Davey, Sylvia, Bennell, Wona et al will all then rotate through. Don't forget one L. Tapscott either. Coupled with a sturdy defence and a class midfield i am happy with the clubs recruiting and development.

No need for knee-jerk reactions or paying overs for "average" players in other teams who struggle to get a game but you think might be stars at MFC.

Just learn patience people.

The only time to start trading in players for specific needs is when we are WELL and TRULY IN the premiership window, ie 2013 on. Until then just sit back, relax and enjoy watching these kids develop!

Edited July 23, 2010 by Grandson of a gun

[H_T 3,043]

In a few years once our forward line develops with the likes of jurrah, watts, petterd and all the young guns, matthew bate will be taking the 3rd to 4th defender and will take advantage of this and become elite. People are forgetting he is taking the number 1 or 2 defender week in week out and i believe is doing quite a good job.

He is surprisingly very quick as well.

And other times he is down right too slow (ie.chasing tail). Turns like the Queen Mary on occassions.

But, he turns it on when he wants to. The game against Fremantle was one to forget for Bate.