Second Ruck/Tall forward

[Jarka 767]

Ok, it's clear now we lack a decent second ruck to assist Jamar and who can also go forward to provide a target. I've included in the poll all the options we've tried so far this season.

This year was always going to be another development year but a couple of early wins and good form against top 4 teams may have increased expectations somewhat. Regardless of what's happened so far we should still be concentrating on the future and getting game time into someone we'd expect to be part of the team in the future. One of either Fitzpatrick or gawn may eventually fill the role but they're not an option right now.

So, who do we go with for now?

Paul Johnson has been tried alot, and while he has shown glimpses he's been disappointing in his 63 games. His size and agility suggests that he should be a better player.

Stefan Martin is still raw, has a heap of attributes but his kicking and decision making let him down. He appears to lack a feel for the game.

Jake Spencer is the youngest of the lot, realistically he's several years off being competitive at AFL level. He still has much to learn and imo Casey is the best place for now to learn his craft.

Brad Miller, we all know his capabilities, I'll leave it at that except that he's probably the best option for kicking goals, which is kinda sad.

Michael Newton has surprisingly probably been the best performed in this role up untill now, has a decent leap and reasonably mobile. Sadly his negatives outweigh his positives though.

A case could be made for each one, who do you think?

Edit - Forgot Meesen, but he's injured anyway

Edited May 15, 2010 by Jarka

[MadAsHell 4,212]

Personally I'd say Martin but play him in defence isntead of forward. That would require dropping Rivers though.

So if you're after someone to go forward Miller would be the best option closely followed by Newton IMO.

Fitzpatrick will hopefully be ready to fill this role by 2012, until then Martin's our best bet.

[Great Sage 101]

I don't think that any of the players mentioned are up to it at the moment. With time, hopefully Spencer or Fitzpatrick will be. There are problems with all of our option at the moment.

Spencer: Can ruck but litlle value forward when not rucking

PJ: Little value in ruck, no value anywhere else

Fitzpatrick: not ready this year, hopefully will be in future

Miller: Could be serviceable as 2nd ruck, can get the ball up forward but butchers it

Martin: Not sure - I think his position is CHB, but another tall won't fit in our current backline

Newton: Servicable 2nd ruck, no value anywhere else

The option that I would try for a couple of weeks would be Dunn. Particularly when we are playing a team without 2 quality rucks (which is quite a few). Whilst Dunn would be only serviceable at best, Jamar will ruck for most of the day anyway. The clear value is that Dunn has far more other uses than the other players mentioned. He can play forward or midfield, he will not restrict our rotations off the bench like a Spencer & PJ, nor will he hinder the development of our forward line like Miller. Why does our second ruck have to rest foward anyway? If Bailey wants to rest Jamar at full forward that's fine. Whilst Dunn could play there in patches, he could also rotate through half forward.

What we have lacked for the past few weeks with PJ & Martin in the side is flexibility. If they struggle up forward then they end up wasting a spot on the bench. Let's be honest even if Dunn has a stinker in the ruck but is OK everywhere else he will still be better value than PJ in particular.

[Redleg 40,974]

I don't think that any of the players mentioned are up to it at the moment. With time, hopefully Spencer or Fitzpatrick will be. There are problems with all of our option at the moment.

Spencer: Can ruck but litlle value forward when not rucking

PJ: Little value in ruck, no value anywhere else

Fitzpatrick: not ready this year, hopefully will be in future

Miller: Could be serviceable as 2nd ruck, can get the ball up forward but butchers it

Martin: Not sure - I think his position is CHB, but another tall won't fit in our current backline

Newton: Servicable 2nd ruck, no value anywhere else

The option that I would try for a couple of weeks would be Dunn. Particularly when we are playing a team without 2 quality rucks (which is quite a few). Whilst Dunn would be only serviceable at best, Jamar will ruck for most of the day anyway. The clear value is that Dunn has far more other uses than the other players mentioned. He can play forward or midfield, he will not restrict our rotations off the bench like a Spencer & PJ, nor will he hinder the development of our forward line like Miller. Why does our second ruck have to rest foward anyway? If Bailey wants to rest Jamar at full forward that's fine. Whilst Dunn could play there in patches, he could also rotate through half forward.

What we have lacked for the past few weeks with PJ & Martin in the side is flexibility. If they struggle up forward then they end up wasting a spot on the bench. Let's be honest even if Dunn has a stinker in the ruck but is OK everywhere else he will still be better value than PJ in particular.

Surprised that while Fitzpatrick has been mentioned in the future Gawn has not. He is extrememly mobile and will be very hard to man up if he rests up forward. He will need some time though. I wonder if you wouldn't pinch hit this year with Miller.

[rpfc 28,540]

None of the above.

Play another runner.

Why do we automatically keep the 22nd spot in the team for an underperforming back-up ruck?

For the handful of instances Jamar isn't in the centre, rove to the opposition ruckman.

We'd be doing that with PJ anyway...

Edited May 16, 2010 by rpfc

[titan_uranus 25,020]

Martin is the only one of that lot who should be considered to play ruck.

Spencer offers nothing else at the moment, Miller and Newton are not ruckmen (nor is Dunn for that matter), and Meesen's obviously injured.

Martin I still think will be good at it if he gets an extended shot at it, but it's hard to make a case for bringing someone crap in to ruck when we could just as easily play another runner and 'fake' the ruck contests when Jamar's off.

[monoccular 17,432]

Regarding Martin - he has shown good things in defence

There was a lot of talk of Garland as a forward a few weeks back, noy recently

Just a thought - Martin to defence, Garland forward.

Martin as a back up ruckman if needed.

Discuss.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Dunn was OK against Richmond (but it is Richmond).

[BAMF 4,358]

Maximum Gawn.

Can't wait for this kid to be fit. Unfortunately we are probably going to have to wait till next year for him to play at senior level.

Next week I would play Dunn. Was unlucky to be dropped. Has got a massive tank, can help out in the ruck against ports weak 2nd ruck option. Provides a bit of mongrel and all he needs to do is kick 2 goals and he will be loved by every fan on demonland.

Won't be the best option as 2nd Ruck every week. But will be the best option next week.

There is no point bringing Martin in. He has done nothing better than Pj this year.

[hillie 41]

play dunn in that role. he's done it ot of the year nd hasn't been disgraced

[Disco Demons 92]

if martin keeps going down this path for the year...i wouldn't be suprised if martin gets demoted to the rookie list at the end of this year....

[dee-luded 2,959]

Regarding Martin - he has shown good things in defence

There was a lot of talk of Garland as a forward a few weeks back, noy recently

Just a thought - Martin to defence, Garland forward.

Martin as a back up ruckman if needed.

Discuss.

Defense - Warnock/Frawley/Rivers/Martin?.... Too tall. Top heavy.

[Akum 2,660]

I must say, the three games where we've been really disappointing (Hawthorn, North & WCE) are the only games where we've gone in with 2 rucks. So go with Dunn.

[Eth 4]

Jack Fitzpatrick or Max Gawn, none of our other current backup ruckmen are up to the task

[hrob 2]

its quite frightening to imagine what would happen if jamar got a serious injury....we would st-ruggle so badly...he is without a doubt our most important player!

[GawnWithTheWind 604]

I have ranked our best bets for the second ruckman/forward role.

1) Dunn

I have been one of those pro-dunn guys this year. He is a lead up forward and gives us another option across the half forward line which we desperately need. Bate can do some of the work, but dunn can mark and can play this role. Sure, his kicking at goal hasn't been great but at least he is finding the footy. If we can have Bate, Dunn and Watts all leading forwards we can create some issues for backlines in the coming weeks. I think we need green leading out of full forward with bennell and others around his feet and also giving that option that streams into our forward 50 and takes a mark. But i thought Dunn has been good, and was rough to get dropped. He can help Jamar out in the ruck, and also will run the other ruckman around the ground and give us another kicking option. Hopefully he will be back this week.

2) Miller

Miller should be similar to Dunn. He should play that pinch hit ruckman and forward. He can take a mark but needs to work on not turning the ball over. He is another play who can assist Bate and Watts leading up and could fit into my game plan if Dunn was struggling. He is mobile enough and has a huge heart so why not try him as that 2nd ruck option, because he doesnt have many other options left at Melbourne.

3) Newton

Newton can take a mark. We all know this, and like the 2 above, should be ok to help Jamar out. Pitty he doesnt have the heart like Miller because he could be a very serviceable player for us with Millers heart.

4) PJ

OK ruckman, best ruck option but not best forward option. If Jamar is hurting, we need PJ otherwise I go to one of the other three.

5) Martin

No! Come on, at the moment he cant kick, cant mark, cant handball and cant make a good decision. The best decision he could make would be play a full year in the 2's and dominate. He needs to learn the game of AFL before he plays another senior game. I am not a fan of his footballing ability at all, good athlete.......... terrible footballer

[dee-luded 2,959]

I have ranked our best bets for the second ruckman/forward role.

1) Dunn

I have been one of those pro-dunn guys this year. He is a lead up forward and gives us another option across the half forward line which we desperately need. Bate can do some of the work, but dunn can mark and can play this role. Sure, his kicking at goal hasn't been great but at least he is finding the footy. If we can have Bate, Dunn and Watts all leading forwards we can create some issues for backlines in the coming weeks. I think we need green leading out of full forward with bennell and others around his feet and also giving that option that streams into our forward 50 and takes a mark. But i thought Dunn has been good, and was rough to get dropped. He can help Jamar out in the ruck, and also will run the other ruckman around the ground and give us another kicking option. Hopefully he will be back this week.

2) Miller

Miller should be similar to Dunn. He should play that pinch hit ruckman and forward. He can take a mark but needs to work on not turning the ball over. He is another play who can assist Bate and Watts leading up and could fit into my game plan if Dunn was struggling. He is mobile enough and has a huge heart so why not try him as that 2nd ruck option, because he doesnt have many other options left at Melbourne.

3) Newton

Newton can take a mark. We all know this, and like the 2 above, should be ok to help Jamar out. Pitty he doesnt have the heart like Miller because he could be a very serviceable player for us with Millers heart.

4) PJ

OK ruckman, best ruck option but not best forward option. If Jamar is hurting, we need PJ otherwise I go to one of the other three.

5) Martin

No! Come on, at the moment he cant kick, cant mark, cant handball and cant make a good decision. The best decision he could make would be play a full year in the 2's and dominate. He needs to learn the game of AFL before he plays another senior game. I am not a fan of his footballing ability at all, good athlete.......... terrible footballer

I don't agree with you, IMO dunns crap up forward, better in the mids.

[H_T 3,049]

I must say, the three games where we've been really disappointing (Hawthorn, North & WCE) are the only games where we've gone in with 2 rucks. So go with Dunn.

I'd say go with Dunn. He needs to come back in then. Gives more mobility and options. Jamar can be influential in the ruck with small rests/up forward. Dunn can pinch hit for a few minutes each quarter.

[Sir Why You Little 37,052]

Dunn should play next weekend. i was happy with Watts game, but my god we missed Dunn, (that's how bad the forward structure was!!!)

[Rogue 585]

I don't think Spencer can give us anything outside of rucking, while PJ loses out to a 'break even at best' option in the ruck who'll give us something else. I don't think Miller can ruck.

If fit and in form, Martin gets a gig. Newton's the next best option. You left off Dunn, though.

[Nasher 33,616]

Nobody until Martin or Spencer are able to do more than just ruck.