Small, quick, tough & smart back pocket?

[burn in hell 0]

I was at the Carlton Vs StKilda game and noticed the quick and damaging small aboriginal Blues forward line. I was wondering who we could play as a small, skilled yet hard-at-it small backman. Loosing Whelan (a gun) has left a big hole in the backline.

Back pocket options;

Bartram is quick and tough, but his decision making probably cost us the game against the Dogs (probably should be dropped)

Bennell is better as a wingman/forward (too loose as a backman, may be used if needed)

Aaron Davey is better as a wingman/forward

Grimes is a fantastic HBF, may be too big for the small aboriginals.

Cheney, Joel Mac, are too slow for the mosquito fleet

potential choices

Jordie McKenzie - he is tough as nails, a great tackler, fairly quick and good decision maker. Could be a version of Akermanis who started in the BP.

Neville Jetta - He is tough, quick, tackles like a demon and may be worth a look

Strauss - He is being groomed as a backman, I am unsure about his speed and toughness, but has beautiful skills for a backman.

Rohan Bail - He is quick and agile, hard-at-it, good skills, good on the ground and in the air, is worth a look.

Sam Blease - I have not seen him play, however somebody posted a comment that he plays like David King. (if he is anything like King, we have a gun)

We must develop tough, skilled, smart back pocket players just like we had with Yeates and Whelan, Ward, Brown and Walsh. Without them, Carlton will carve us up.

[Yokozuna 1,004]

You dont think that Garland and Frwaley can match them?

I think they both have the pace.

I guess it also depends ono their taller options, who at the moment are Waite and O'Hailpin.

I would think Bartram would get Betts, Garland on Yarran, Frawley on O'Hailpin, Warnock on Waite and then Grimes maybe on Garlett.

We may need to bring in another small defender as back up and/or to release Grimes, so they would need to be quick, maybe Bail/Strauss.

[JACKATTACK 17]

I would like to keep our backline as settled as possible.

They are ranked =2nd in the league in points conceded.

Frawley, Garland and Grimes and Warnock, are not slow. Play our own game and make them accountable.

[Grand New Flag 3,227]

You dont think that Garland and Frwaley can match them?

I think they both have the pace.

I guess it also depends ono their taller options, who at the moment are Waite and O'Hailpin.

I would think Bartram would get Betts, Garland on Yarran, Frawley on O'Hailpin, Warnock on Waite and then Grimes maybe on Garlett.

We may need to bring in another small defender as back up and/or to release Grimes, so they would need to be quick, maybe Bail/Strauss.

Perfect Yokozuna

100% agree

[e25 5]

I would like to keep our backline as settled as possible.

They are ranked =2nd in the league in points conceded.

Frawley, Garland and Grimes and Warnock, are not slow. Play our own game and make them accountable.

That's it - best defense is a good offense. Keep them on the back foot, punish their turnovers.

St Kilda struggles in part because they weren't dangerous going forward.

[dee-tox 4,835]

I was at the Carlton Vs StKilda game and noticed the quick and damaging small aboriginal Blues forward line. I was wondering who we could play as a small, skilled yet hard-at-it small backman. Loosing Whelan (a gun) has left a big hole in the backline.

Back pocket options;

Bartram is quick and tough, but his decision making probably cost us the game against the Dogs (probably should be dropped)

Bennell is better as a wingman/forward (too loose as a backman, may be used if needed)

Aaron Davey is better as a wingman/forward

Grimes is a fantastic HBF, may be too big for the small aboriginals.

Cheney, Joel Mac, are too slow for the mosquito fleet

potential choices

Jordie McKenzie - he is tough as nails, a great tackler, fairly quick and good decision maker. Could be a version of Akermanis who started in the BP.

Neville Jetta - He is tough, quick, tackles like a demon and may be worth a look

Strauss - He is being groomed as a backman, I am unsure about his speed and toughness, but has beautiful skills for a backman.

Rohan Bail - He is quick and agile, hard-at-it, good skills, good on the ground and in the air, is worth a look.

Sam Blease - I have not seen him play, however somebody posted a comment that he plays like David King. (if he is anything like King, we have a gun)

We must develop tough, skilled, smart back pocket players just like we had with Yeates and Whelan, Ward, Brown and Walsh. Without them, Carlton will carve us up.

It is a good point you raise and something that has worried me for a little while. We need to clone Matty Whelan.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

You dont think that Garland and Frwaley can match them?

I think they both have the pace.

I guess it also depends ono their taller options, who at the moment are Waite and O'Hailpin.

I would think Bartram would get Betts, Garland on Yarran, Frawley on O'Hailpin, Warnock on Waite and then Grimes maybe on Garlett.

We may need to bring in another small defender as back up and/or to release Grimes, so they would need to be quick, maybe Bail/Strauss.

Agree with all that.

I would like to keep our backline as settled as possible.

They are ranked =2nd in the league in points conceded.

Frawley, Garland and Grimes and Warnock, are not slow. Play our own game and make them accountable.

What he said.

Also it might just help if we won the midfield.

Drop Bartram after his efforts so far this year!!!- Ugh!

[Deeoldfart 7,996]

...................

Bartram is quick and tough, but his decision making probably cost us the game against the Dogs (probably should be dropped)

Unsubstantiated call IMO. There were lots of errors made by Melbourne players over four quarters of football in difficult conditions against the Dogs. When looked at in isolation, it could be argued that plenty of them 'cost us the game'. Why would you single out Bartram? Personally, I think his form has been good since his recall to the team. His decision making overall has been very solid, and he has kept some good players very quiet. I can't agree with your assessment that he "probably should be dropped".

[The Chazz 4,077]

Unsubstantiated call IMO. There were lots of errors made by Melbourne players over four quarters of football in difficult conditions against the Dogs. When looked at in isolation, it could be argued that plenty of them 'cost us the game'. Why would you single out Bartram? Personally, I think his form has been good since his recall to the team. His decision making overall has been very solid, and he has kept some good players very quiet. I can't agree with your assessment that he "probably should be dropped".

I have no doubt that Bartram contributed in Melbourne's loss on Friday night. Ok, he made the error of handballing it to the Melbourne player impersonator, but in the last minutes when the ball was about 25m from the Dogs goal, he had a chance to clear it out. What he did was paddle the ball forward-ish, sadly Griffen got the ball and kicked the winning goal. The 2 match-losing errors Bartram made were 1) on a wet night, he should have kicked the guts out of it along the ground toward the boundary about 50m out, thus give us a chance to reset our zone, and 2) Because he didn't do number 1, he needed to get his body right behind the ball and keep paddling. He didn't do this, and becasue of a dodgy bounce, it meant the ball was out of his reach. As soon as I saw that happen, and before the goal was kicked, I said to the group that I was watching the game with, that he has just cost us the game. Sure enough, it happened. Doing point number 2 would have resulted in him getting smashed bu the opposition, but sadly, we need to do that sometimes to win a game of footy. he didn't, and we didn't.

So, should he be dropped for it? Not sure, he's been playing really well this year - I think a lot would depend on his attitude this week. If he burns the training track down, he plays, if he doesn't, he gets dropped. We didn't drop Bennell for his shirking at the contest, but I'm sure he was on notice during the week to see how his attitude was, and look what's happened since - I think he has become a very valuable contributor in this team.

Edited May 12, 2010 by billy2803

[Dinosaur Rover 197]

I have no doubt that Bartram contributed in Melbourne's loss on Friday night. Ok, he made the error of handballing it to the Melbourne player impersonator, but in the last minutes when the ball was about 25m from the Dogs goal, he had a chance to clear it out. What he did was paddle the ball forward-ish, sadly Griffen got the ball and kicked the winning goal. The 2 match-losing errors Bartram made were 1) on a wet night, he should have kicked the guts out of it along the ground toward the boundary about 50m out, thus give us a chance to reset our zone, and 2) Because he didn't do number 1, he needed to get his body right behind the ball and keep paddling. He didn't tdo this, and becasue of a dodgy bounce, it meant the ball was out of his reach. As soon as I saw that happen, and before the goal was kicked, I said to the group that I was watching the game with, that he has just cost us the game. Sure enough, it happened.

So, should he be dropped for it? Not sure, he's been playing really well this year - I think a lot would depend on his attitude this week. If he burns the training track down, he plays, if he doesn't, he gets dropped. We didn't drop Bennell for his shirking at the contest, but I'm sure he was on notice during the week to see how his attitude was, and look what's happened since - I think he has become a very valuable contributor in this team.

I saw Rivers drop two sitter chest marks and do a similar attempted swipe away of the ball resulting in goal. The conditions were difficult.

[The Chazz 4,077]

I saw Rivers drop two sitter chest marks and do a similar attempted swipe away of the ball resulting in goal. The conditions were difficult.

May have happened, but sadly for Bartram his errors cost us a goal that put the dogs in front.

I fully understand what the conditions were like, hence me highlighting point number 1 (about kicking along the ground).

[Yokozuna 1,004]

I said the same thing to those around me at the game. Bartram should have kicked the ball further away and then chased and tried to use his pace.

I know the goal that got them back in front was from that play, but there were plenty of other opportunities to win the ball, clear the ball and control the ball prior to thatpoint, which would have also won us the game.

To place it all on that one play is just wrong.

There were many errors madein that game and against the pies, which I am hoping is just inexperience and the fact we have not been in many winning positions prior to this year,so we will hopefully learn from them.

Bartram should not be dropped on his current form, but I can understand that he may beone who will make way for our other youngsters coming up.

[MadAsHell 4,209]

Simple, match ups against the blues.

Warnock - O'Halphin

Rivers - Waite

Frawley - Betts

Garland - Yarran

Bartram - Garlett

Grimes - Lucas or whoever else it is Carltank play forward?

Long term I think you'll find one of Bartram, Cheney or Strauss will fill this role.

[The Chazz 4,077]

I said the same thing to those around me at the game. Bartram should have kicked the ball further away and then chased and tried to use his pace.

I know the goal that got them back in front was from that play, but there were plenty of other opportunities to win the ball, clear the ball and control the ball prior to thatpoint, which would have also won us the game.

To place it all on that one play is just wrong.

There were many errors madein that game and against the pies, which I am hoping is just inexperience and the fact we have not been in many winning positions prior to this year,so we will hopefully learn from them.

Bartram should not be dropped on his current form, but I can understand that he may beone who will make way for our other youngsters coming up.

I totally agree. I am not blaming him for losing - the 2 possible goals that were given as points cost us the game, there were also 2 out-on-the-full calls against Melbourne that were incorrect, both those could have cost us the game. But, sadly for Bartram, the passage of play that he was involved in, and made errors in, was THE passage of play that did actually cost us the game as it put the Dogs in front. We could crticise Griffen's opponent for not manning up, or that fact that Bartram had no help, but again, the harsh reality is that we can honestly say that that passage of play cost us the game as there is proof that if he did better, Griffen would not have got the ball.

Bugger, that pretty much reads that I'm blaming him for losing the game for us - I'm trying not to! Gee, I see a can of worms opening here!

[Deeoldfart 7,996]

May have happened, but sadly for Bartram his errors cost us a goal that put the dogs in front.

I fully understand what the conditions were like, hence me highlighting point number 1 (about kicking along the ground).

I think we would all agree that if Barts had his time over again, he would have handled that situation differently, and the alternate approach might not have led to a Dogs goal .......... however bih's suggestion that he should "probably be dropped" on the basis of that one poor decision is what I find perplexing. It's not that he had a 'shocker', or that his decision making has been a persistent problem. His form and decision making since his recall to the team have been solid and reliable, at the very least.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Deeoldfart

[The Chazz 4,077]

I think we would all agree that if Barts had his time over again, he would have handled that situation differently, and the alternate approach might not have led in a Dogs goal .......... however you suggestion that he should "probably be dropped" on the basis of that one poor decision is what I find perplexing. It's not that he had a 'shocker', or that his decision making has been a persistent problem. His form and decision making since his recall to the team have been solid and reliable, at the very least.

Hey, Deeoldfart, I did not suggest that he should probably be dropped. If you are going to paraphrase, please be accurate about it. If you need confirmation of something I said, ask me privately before publishing it please.

If you read one of my replies, I did state that if he works the house down this week then he ought to be given a chance to redeem himself.

I have been impressed with both Bartram and Dunn this year, 2 fringe players taht have needed to step up, and have. We have 3 or 4 players waiting for someone to do something wrong so they gett heir opportunity, it's little things like this that may hurt these fringe players. For the record, the 3 or 4 I am talking about would be Cheney, Strauss, Gysberts and Joel Mac. All can pretty much cover the role that Dunn and Bartram play.

This is a massive positive for the Club though. If players realise that mistakes could POSSIBLY (not PROBABLY) cost them their spot, it will only make us a better team.

[Guest Balls_Grinter_14]

Bring back Wrecker or Peter Walsh. Best back pockets I have seen in RED and Blue

Edited May 12, 2010 by Balls_Grinter_14

[mordja 187]

Barts is significantly improved this year IMO. Should not be dropped.

[Deeoldfart 7,996]

Hey, Deeoldfart, I did not suggest that he should probably be dropped. If you are going to paraphrase, please be accurate about it. If you need confirmation of something I said, ask me privately before publishing it please.

..............

Sorry billy. It was BIH who suggested that in the opening post, and I have already corrected my post.

[Deeoldfart 7,996]

............................... This is a massive positive for the Club though. If players realise that mistakes could POSSIBLY (not PROBABLY) cost them their spot, it will only make us a better team.

Totally agree with that.

[burn in hell 0]

Bring back Wrecker or Peter Walsh. Best back pockets I have seen in RED and Blue

who is our new whelan?

[45HG 1,539]

who is our new whelan?

New Whelan?

You're joking aren't you!

[Dee*ceiving 1,630]

Neville Jetta is the perfect candidate to mould into a Matty Whelan type IMO. The FD should also consider having Addam Maric spend some time in the back half for Casey to strengthen his defensive game and make him realise that the hardest and most important work happens backward of centre.

Neither of these 2 look close to getting a game as a small forward at the moment with Bennell doing a fine job and Wona seemingly close to a senior recall.

BTW - Bartram has been tremendous this year. If a player could be voted most improved after a decline, he'd be it. Currently in career best form. Remember he was really good in his rookie year of 2006 before being cruelled by injury just before the finals.

[Rogue 585]

Bartram's been good this year.

As for needing another small quick backman, I definitely agree - it's something I've posted about a fair few times.

Cheney's playing good footy at Casey but I don't think he has the speed for the role, based on what I saw of him at AFL level.

However, someone on here said he'd been suffering with an ankle injury that impacted on his pace, so maybe he's quicker than what he's shown at senior level so far.

[Pello 1]

I know this isn't the topic of this thread but seeing Batram has been mentioned I will add my two cents. He has definitely improved this year and has been playing his role each week and does not deserve to be dropped. His disposal has improved a lot.

Yes there is a BUT! But I can't see him being part of our long term plans. As hard and as tough and dedicated as he is to the role he plays in the team he will let us down at crucial times during a game. He will always give 100% - no question. But in those crucial tight moments of a pressurised last quarter his skill errors create turnovers and have cost us two games this year. Let's not forget the errant handball against Collingwood. Of course there is a 100+ minutes in a game and it may seem unfair to focus on those two errors in the context of all other mistakes that are made in a game. Maybe so but the fact remains that throughout his career Bartram has consistently made crucial mistakes that wind up hurting us.

As I say his form warrants he gets picked each week - for now. But as we start to creep into finals and then premiership contention Bartram won't be part of our plans because players like Clint that lack skill will continually hurt you at crucial times as he has done before. Only then though the stakes will be much higher.