What is the essence of a football club's existence ?

[old55 23,623]

Indirectly, they are.

Indeed and Mother Theresa was essentially self-serving too.

Reductionist arguments have their limitations.

[e25 5]

Indeed and Mother Theresa was essentially self-serving too.

Reductionist arguments have their limitations.

Well that's what this argument is really about - limitations.

[Jarka 767]

My answer to the actual question: Football clubs exist as an outlet for a bunch of competitive blokes to be able to put their skills to the test against the best. The best and most primary benchmark of this is obviously a premiership, but I don't reckon that's why they exist, it's just something they should be striving for since they do exist.

There is another way of looking at this point of view and that's that the AFL exists to fill a void in the life of the masses. It's an ideal replacement for war and tribal tendecies.

This is actually a great discussion because there are so many different levels it could be viewed at, pity I don't have the time right now to get right into it. On a social level humans naturally desire to form groups, and these groups will always fight with other groups, and then there are the issues within the groups themselves. A football club is a great way to analysis human nature.

[youami 54]

Community work. Celebration of past players, officials, etc. Family Days & footy clinics.

All about building our supporter base so we can exist. Our reason to exist to win a premiership.

[rusty_kingswood 0]

I believe that the sole purpose of a football club is winning flags and that every decision a club makes should be with this agenda in mind. Obviously football clubs make many decisions to strengthen their support and income streams, such as the relationship we've fostered with the City of Casey, but ultimately every football person is judged at the end of their tenure by 'cups in the cupboard'. And as a supporter a flag is pivotal to my journey.

Not all Melbourne supporters agree. To provide balance, below is an exchange that I had recently with 'Axis of Bob' on another thread.

'Axis of Bob': "just because you only care about a flag and nothing else (apparently) it doesn't mean that is the sole reason that clubs exist. As a member based organisation it is in existance to serve the interests of its members. A premiership is an easy goal to have and I think most supporters will go along with that goal, but a football club serves so many different purposes for people. But, as you yourself said, some supporters 'just don't crave flags'. If that's the case then the club exists to satify their needs as they are a member of a membership organisation. If they don't feel that the club reflects their goals then they will leave, just as you would leave if you felt that the club was aiming for consistent competitiveness rather than aiming for a premiership. It's all about 'how it makes [you] feel'.

"It seems a no brainer" - Good to see you remaining open minded. "

My response: "We all (mostly) enjoy the journey and watching talented footballers, but ultimately clubs only exist to win the premiership. It's so pure and simple that even the 'see game win game' brigade should understand. It's why the MFC are playing in what's called a "competition". Clubs aren't always realistically in a position to win a flag in a given year, but the sole aim of any club, and any decisions it makes for the future, must be with this quest in mind. Because some clubs haven't always made decisions with this in mind they've inhibited their chances of success. I hate Carlton, but they make all their decisions based on winning a flag. I'm not endorsing cheating the salary cap, etc, and no-one was happier than me when they were caught, but they at least understand why they exist. And it was a Melbourne icon that brought them this mentality over 40 years ago.

Unfortunately, it's your type of misunderstanding that epitomises this club and reflects its lack of success. It's also a view that embarrasses me and makes me sometimes cringe around MFC supporters. That you cannot understand the sole reason for clubs existing is telling."

With whom do you agree ?

Maybe my sentiment differs to that of many supporters. No doubt some supporters would love a flag, but it's not the be all and end all. It is to me, as I wouldn't follow a club if I unequivocally knew that Melb. wouldn't win a flag in my lifetime. It's the only thing that keeps me going. But I might be in the minority, and I want to find out, which is the reason for the poll. Of course one can't predict the future, but all I consider as a supporter is a flag. Nothing else matters. 'Axis of Bob' thinks I'm far too black and white - and he may be right.

If possible, those that vote please post whether you voted a. b. or c. as I'd like to know where individuals stand. You don't need to comment, just nominate how you voted. Naturally, comments are welcome.

So by this logic hannibal, have players 'failed' if they havent won a flag within their time at a club?

Becuase there is an abundance of champion players of clubs and of the AFL, who havent won flags?

[Jaded No More 68,966]

I chose 'C' because I think that the essence of a football club's existence is to serve it's members/shareholders, just like any other public organisation.

While for me a premiership is the be all and end, meaning that I support and love this club because I (stupidly or otherwise) believe that one day we'll win a premiership.

However there are many members who have supported this club through many many years of no success (yourself included H), and many who will continue to support this club through failure, so long as a premiership was not an impossible goal.

So while the club should always aim for success, success is not simply measured by premierships, particularly as they are so hard to attain. Is North Melbourne a successful club? Is Collingwood? Should Freo cease to exist? (yes, but that's a separate issue )

The essence of a club's existence lies in serving its supporters and the AFL. So long as both are happy, the club will continue to exist.

Having said that, I want a goddamn premiership and I want it NOW! :D

Edit: the above applies only if you view AFL clubs as businesses. If you view AFL and AFL clubs as a less tangible thing, perhaps a community, a society or a form of religion, than obviously the above views change.

[Jarka 767]

So by this logic hannibal, have players 'failed' if they havent won a flag within their time at a club?

Becuase there is an abundance of champion players of clubs and of the AFL, who havent won flags?

My opinion and talking to ex players who haven't had success, yes.

Ask Nathan Buckley if he feels that he had a successful career.

[torpedo 33]

All about building our supporter base so we can exist. Our reason to exist to win a premiership.

To suggest the club only visits dying kids or honours club stalwarts to grow our supporter base is distasteful to say the least.

The MFC, along with all the other football clubs I have come into contact with, have a sense of social responsibility and contribute to the community accordingly.

I admit there are often indirect benefits to the club, such as growing a supporter base, but to say that the sole reason the MFC makes such gestures is to win a premiership... well... thats your loss if you want to think like that, I am 100% positive Chris Connolly would disagree with you.

[Sir Why You Little 37,051]

I want to see the Melbourne Football Club Win Flags, Hold up Premiership Cups..Christ over the years i have watched just about every other club win one!!

Clubs who do not win flags are seen as the weaker bunch. The AFL exploit this Fact with the Draw each year.

We must win Premierships, otherwise we will fade away...

[52k2 0]

Robbie Flower never won a grand final do you consider him a failure?

In answer to the question 'Would you take a flag in 09 and them go out of the AFL' NO WAY.

For those who said they wouldnt follow the DEES if they knew we wouldnt win a flag, theres the door.

My simple answer to the meaning of life, is, I am 58 now, if god came down today and told me I would live to be 100. BUT the DEEs in my time would never win a flag I would still be at the G on Sunday barracking for my mighty DEES.

[rpfc 28,534]

Winning a flag is the raison detre of the club.

Otherwise, why are playing football? And in the highest league? And with suddenly two development coaches? Etc.

And we do Demon Heartland to grow our base of support to grow our membership levels so that we can spend more on getting that flag.

Companies give money to charities and involve themselves in charity work for PR and employee fulfillment purposes.

Clubs do it for the same reason.

We do it to be seen 'to give something back,' call me cynical and I will remind you to pass the threshold into the real world. Why do you think you read about the charities we work with? Because we call up the Hun and the Age...

Being involved in volunteer or charity work makes one a more rounded person. A more rounded, level person is of use to footy clubs as they make good footy players.

Everything comes back to winning, and winning flags.

If it didn't we would be a social club, not a footy club.

Maybe I have gone past the mark, are we a footy club?

[Hannabal 4]

There's tens: Pink Lady Day, players visiting sick kids in hospital, assisting player welfare after football ...

I consider these issues by-products of a club's being. Club's exist and compete to win premierships, but obviously with how football has grown further into communities over the last few decades they're in a position to do much more than purely kick a football.

But I can't quite understand what a club's objective is if it isn't to be the best team in a given year and win the highest honour of the competition it competes in - a premiership. All things flow from this sole premise.

I also don't like the notion of football being a business. It's not, it's a sport. Yes, it needs to be efficient and to be able to generate income, pay bills, etc, but it will always be a sport to me. That's another thread though.

Bob, I don't usually answer silly questions. But of course I wouldn't agree to anything that procluded the MFC continueing in the competition. It's the key word for me - c.o.m.p.e.t.i.t.i.o.n.

[Jarka 767]

To suggest the club only visits dying kids or honours club stalwarts to grow our supporter base is distasteful to say the least.

But it's true, it's all about developing the club's brand and gaining a greater market share.

To think otherwise is naive.

[Sir Why You Little 37,051]

Robbie Flower never won a grand final do you consider him a failure?

Robbie would have Given anything to win a flag & you know it.

Bob Skilton has stated many times he would happily give up his 3 Brownlow medals for a flag.

Pity we can't ask Norm Smith his opinion, although i would take a good guess.

Norm was a winner just like his club needs to be.

Stop being a softie 52k. People with your attitude get walked all over.

P.S. Don't ever "show me the Door" when it comes to supporting The Melbourne Football Club. I was there in '87 when Buckernara's kick sailed through and Killed us off.

I Felt sick & Mad. I never want to feel that way again. You may accept that situation as Good Enough. I don't. But never question my support

I want to see Flag 13,14,15,16,,,,,etc. QED.

[Roost It 1,434]

One way to work it out is to ask the players.

Let's, as a club, tell them that premeirships aren't our sole aim. Tell them that the members, sponsors, community groups are just as important, premeirships are just a "bonus". Just give us a "good, competitive effort". How many of them do you seriously think would resign with this club. If you don't tick A you're kidding yourself.

Do you seriously think Jack Watts is here to settle for the odd finals game. Just think about the absurdity of that scenario.

Jack Watts, age 33, premeirships 0, but plenty of "good, competitive efforts" He's playing at Essendon or Collingwood or Carlton inside 3 years with this mentality.

If you are still unsure what do you think Checker Hughes or Norm Smith would have answered.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Roost It

[Roost It 1,434]

Robbie Flower never won a grand final do you consider him a failure?

In answer to the question 'Would you take a flag in 09 and them go out of the AFL' NO WAY.

For those who said they wouldnt follow the DEES if they knew we wouldnt win a flag, theres the door.

My simple answer to the meaning of life, is, I am 58 now, if god came down today and told me I would live to be 100. BUT the DEEs in my time would never win a flag I would still be at the G on Sunday barracking for my mighty DEES.

Yeh, but you've seen a flag, Most of us haven't.

[youami 54]

Political correctness gone mad.

[torpedo 33]

But it's true, it's all about developing the club's brand and gaining a greater market share.

To think otherwise is naive.

I think you're being cynical.

Football clubs have been making positive contributions to society since long before branding and market share. Why did they do it then?

[Sir Why You Little 37,051]

Jack Watts, age 33, premeirships 0, but plenty of "good, competitive efforts" He's playing at Essendon or Collingwood or Carlton inside 3 years with this mentality.

If you are still unsure what do you think Checker Hughes or Norm Smith would have answered.

Good Point Roost. I am Sure that is just the career that Jack Watts has planned for Himself...NOT.

& i am sure Norm would have been just as satisfied if he had lost all those 10 Flags he was involved in.

Why is the Norm Smith Medal given out on GF Day, not because Norm was a loser & happy to accept losing.

Norm Smith Played & Coached to win all the time. When he did not win he worked out why & rectified the situation.

[Jaded No More 68,966]

I also don't like the notion of football being a business. It's not, it's a sport.

If it was just sport than we wouldn't have salary caps, multi-million dollar TV rights, intense media coverage, sponsorships, government assistance and the list goes on.

People wouldn't fork out hundreds of dollars to be part of a this business, and everyone would be on a level playing field.

It isn't just a sport, that's the point. It's playing sport within a formalised structured organisation, where the bottom line is as much about money as it is about success. That's why North Melbourne, one of the most successful Victorian teams of recent times, is under threat, while Freo isn't. Because having cash flow, making profit and sustaining a competitive advantage off the field, is as big a part of being successful, as winning.

Of course without money and resources, you're going to struggle to win a premiership, but winning a premiership could inject money and resources into the club. It's a vicious cycle, and no matter how you look at it, success and money are tied together.

[52k2 0]

You were there in 87, but I am a softy, I was there also, do you have any idea how hard it is to believe in something so much [like winning ] when most everybody else thinks its ok to barrack for the opposition and you are some sort of retard. Its not easy at all, not the soft way to go.

I believe in the red and blue and I will continue to believe in them now matter what or who. I follow the mighty Melbourne football club no matter where it goes, were you at the merger metting at the Dallas Brooks hall back in 96?

If you were, think back to the night and try to picture question time. The first question from the floor was from softy me, I asked Ian Ridley a question regarding the make up of the new board. The great IR stood there not saying a word not even a no comment for his members. So I asked him again not satisfied with his contempt, what I am trying to say ,me soft, your dreaming.

You continue to barrack for the opposition and I will still hang out for the DEES.

[torpedo 33]

Let's, as a club, tell them that premeirships aren't our sole aim.

That's not the question though and thats not what people who disagree are saying. Of course the aim of the MFC is to win premierships.

Edited July 29, 2009 by torpedo

[rpfc 28,534]

I just had to laugh at this post.

If you are so non-plussed about winning a flag, you should join a social club.

Upgrade your membership at the Bentleigh Club and enjoy the amenities.

I want to sit on top of 15 clubs and say 'we do this better than you.'

'Checker' Hughes changed our name from a flower to the Demons.

Why did he do that?

I'm sure in doing that he offended some pious supporters with this distasteful reference of evil.

He didn't care, all that mattered was how it affected the club on the field. He wanted us to play like Demons.

[Jarka 767]

I think you're being cynical.

Football clubs have been making positive contributions to society since long before branding and market share. Why did they do it then?

Not cynical just a realist.

Also, branding and marketshare has always existed, we just have a name them now.

Great example of marketshare is to go back and have a look at the East India Company, it's competitors were furious with the grants and trade monoplies it was given by the British government. Complete marketshare.

[52k2 0]

Sorry 'Roost it' I only saw your answer after I replied to another poster[ I am a slow typist].

No I have never seen a MFC day flag as I only came to Melb. in Dec 70, and the girl I went out with was a DEES supporter , so I chose to barrack for the DEES. I shudder to think what would have happened if she had barracked for someone else [ Collingwood...... spew, shudder, toilet]

So I have not seen one, but theres still time.