Regarding the failed merger with Hawthorn

[james1977 0]

By the time Joe put up the money the Hawthorn members had voted against the merger. I wonder why Joe didn't put up the money at the start given that he was against the merger. When the majority of Demon members (who voted) voted for the merger it was without the knowledge that there was a white knight in the ranks. Looking back it's pretty sad that the majority of Melbourne members voted for the merger (particularly when the Hawthorn members voted against it). But then again they were told the alternative would be the club folding. Why did the majority of Hawthorn members vote against it and the majority of Melbourne members vote for it? What does it say about Melbourne and Hawthorn members in general? Or were the Demons in more strife than the Hawks and is that the reason? What do you think would have happened if Joe hadn't got elected as President? Would he still have given the money? How much was it by the way? Was it a loan or a gift? Let's say both the majority of Hawthorn and Melbourne supporters had voted for the merger and then Joe offered the money. Do you think the merger would have gone ahead? Would the board have called for a new vote? Can a certain number of members force a vote even if the board says no? Also what do you think would have happened if Joe hadn't provided the funds? Given that the merger with Hawks was off the table do you think the Dees would have merged with another club, raised the money to survive without Joe or folded. Would there have been another white knight?

[pitmaster 3,549]

Boy have you got it wrong!

Joe was on the scene weeks before the vote, promising to contribute to save the club. There was even a rally at the MCG at which the MCC allowed Demons fans in to the committee room to view the trophies and pennants won by the Dees, and Joe was there signing autographs. And he wasn't the only bloke there wearing a red and blue yamulkah either.

As for the vote: it was crooked. Hundreds if not thousands of members were locked out of the Dallas Brooks Centre and could not get in to cast their vote. The vote "passed" only narrowly but may not have survived a Supreme Court challenge in any case because of the way so many members were disenfranchised (prevented from voting) because of the way it was carried out.

The legal challenge became moot as they say in legal circles (in other words did not matter a rat's ----) after Hawthorn voted against it.

FYI Joe was introduced to the club via a grass roots group called the Demon Alternative which had premiership player Brian Dixon as its figure head and ordinary supporters as their meat and bones.

Joe ultimately contributed $2.7 million of the $3 million he promised - it was not a loan. At the time the Hawks were in more trouble than Melbourne. Melb wanted a summer training base and the Hawks had one at Glenferrie. We also wanted a social club and they had one of them. What they also had that we did not was a residual mass support. Their post-1960 era almost - but not quite - matched Melbourne's post 1938 era (10 premierships ins 25 years) and that's why they have found such a strong supporter base since rebuilding. Our golden era is just too distant.

[james1977 0]

You're right. I got it totally wrong! Thanks for correcting me Those board members were a bunch of bastards doing that to the members! I can't understand they would have wanted the club to merge when Joe was offering $3 million! Club mergers should only be a last restort. Those directors who wanted the club to merge didn't deserve to be on the board. What a disgrace!

Added later: On reflection I was way too harsh on the directors in what I said about them. They loved the club as well. So I am sorry for saying the above.

[Sir Why You Little 37,034]

You're right. I got it totally wrong! Thanks for correcting me Those board members were a bunch of bastards doing that to the members! I can't understand they would have wanted the club to merge when Joe was offering $3 million! Club mergers should only be a last restort. Those directors who wanted the club to merge didn't deserve to be on the board. What a disgrace!

Club Mergers should never happen. I use the NRL as an example. They are going Broke-The passions have been diluted, the money not as strong.

I would rather the MFC died as its own entity than merge with another Foe.

Fitzroys connection to the Brisbane lions is nothing more than a dead carcus.

[Jarka 767]

The only thing Tiger got wrong was that he didn't foresee the AFL giving money to the poorer clubs with things like the CBF, everything else he predicted has occured.

As for the people getting locked out, it's true, but not for any sinister reasons that's been suggested in this thread. The place was absolutely full. They literally couldn't fit any more poeple in. The suggestion that pro merger voters were somehow snuck in and the anti merger voters were locked outside is laughable.

It's interesting that some people have painted Gutnick as the saviour of the club, this is simply not true. The club was not in any financial danger at the time, however there could be a very strong argument to suggest the he was almost responsible for the beginning of the end of the club.

[wisedog 352]

If Melbourne members were voting to become the 'Hawthorn Demons' and play in a jumper that was essentially Hawthorn with a demon printed on the front, I'm sure they would have rejected it as well.

[Sir Why You Little 37,034]

The only thing Tiger got wrong was that he didn't foresee the AFL giving money to the poorer clubs with things like the CBF, everything else he predicted has occured.

Correct, Tiger had a fair idea what was going to happen. We Had no home base to fall back on, at the Time the MCC members who were melbourne supporters were not financial. The books were not adding up.

Thank God we have been able to rejoin into the MCC to restart the long journey.

[dreamin' man 0]

At the time, it seemed that the Hawthorn members had done us a favour on that memorably emotional night by blocking the merger but the price Melbourne members have had to pay since is being told "but you voted for it."

In truth, there was passionate oppositon by Demons & if the Hawks hadn't voted against it, the Melbourne vote would have been contested in court & overturned.

Just a pity that history shows we voted to merge.

[deanox 9,914]

it is interesting that the fitzoy football club and the brisbane bears football club never really merged, however their football departments did. This was a big mistake, imo by the AFL as it was effectively a half-assed merger. it has however given the fitzroy football club a chance to continue on in melbourne, so perhaps its a good thing.

i would prefer that any clubs which were asked to merge were allowed to drop into another competition ie vfl, while their football departments merged, and the other club 'offered' to take on some of heritage and traditions ie colours, monika, etc.

[Sir Why You Little 37,034]

At the time, it seemed that the Hawthorn members had done us a favour on that memorably emotional night by blocking the merger but the price Melbourne members have had to pay since is being told "but you voted for it."

In truth, there was passionate oppositon by Demons & if the Hawks hadn't voted against it, the Melbourne vote would have been contested in court & overturned.

Just a pity that history shows we voted to merge.

Truth is "dreamin" who cares what other people think, the media are prepared to write anything. The treatment Wallace got a few weeks ago was disgusting really, & now its all faded away. 100's of pages of pure crap they wrote-All of them.

We as a club have just gotta put our heads down, work hard & make the right decisions, I for one am glad we are bottoming out now & not 1-2 years down the track.

We know how much passion our supporters have got & that's all that counts.

I wonder how many Essendon or Carlton supporters would still be passionate after a 45 year Drought?? I have often thought about that & i hope to see it in my lifetime.

[iw_s 0]

At the time we were asset poor and had a weak playing list. Hawthorn had the players and were comparatively wealthier given the Glenferrie Oval. As Tiger explained in Urge to Merge, the deal looked great on paper and came on the back of numerous approaches from other clubs and constant pressure for mergers coming from the AFL (not to mention multi-million dollar sweeteners).

The boards of the two clubs believed that if there had to be a merger, whichever clubs moved first would get the best deal and be able to create a wealthy powerhouse club with a playing list that would be the envy of the competition for a decade. The missing element, the unknown, was whether they could convince their members.

The directors of the two clubs are just as passionate as any supporter - in fact, more so because they were prepared to volunteer their time (and often plenty of their own money) to contribute heart and soul for the betterment of their club ... for which directors rarely get any thanks.

The merger didn't come off. I'm glad of that. I regret the hurt that was caused to great, passionate club men - particularly Tiger. I hope Tiger felt that he and the club and the supporters had got beyond the acrimony of that night and he understood he was revered and respected as the extraordinary Melbourne man that he truly was. If we ever need reminding of what a great man Tiger was, have a read of The Red Fox.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

At the time we were asset poor and had a weak playing list. Hawthorn had the players and were comparatively wealthier given the Glenferrie Oval. As Tiger explained in Urge to Merge, the deal looked great on paper and came on the back of numerous approaches from other clubs and constant pressure for mergers coming from the AFL (not to mention multi-million dollar sweeteners).

The boards of the two clubs believed that if there had to be a merger, whichever clubs moved first would get the best deal and be able to create a wealthy powerhouse club with a playing list that would be the envy of the competition for a decade. The missing element, the unknown, was whether they could convince their members.

The directors of the two clubs are just as passionate as any supporter - in fact, more so because they were prepared to volunteer their time (and often plenty of their own money) to contribute heart and soul for the betterment of their club ... for which directors rarely get any thanks.

The merger didn't come off. I'm glad of that. I regret the hurt that was caused to great, passionate club men - particularly Tiger. I hope Tiger felt that he and the club and the supporters had got beyond the acrimony of that night and he understood he was revered and respected as the extraordinary Melbourne man that he truly was. If we ever need reminding of what a great man Tiger was, have a read of The Red Fox.

Great post iw_s. Great comments about Tiger.

While I did not support the merger and acknowledge Tigers decision though wrong had put the interests of the Club first, I thought the treatment of him on the night at Dallas Brooks and the lack of respect for him was one of the worst things I have experienced as a Demon supporter.

I absolutely loathe the justification of a player to be in the MFC team because they "bleed red and blue for the Club". If ever there was a person involved with MFC that truly did then it was Ian Ridley.

Rest in Peace Tiger.

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,780]

I think a lot of the MFC members who voted "FOR" the merger were under the mistaken impression that Melbourne would effectively "take over" Hawthorn, and that , before long, we'd be back in the same jumpers as the Demons, with Dunstall at full-forward. These were the lukewarm supporters, looking for an "easy fix".

They gravely underestimated the passion of the Hawks, who never would have let that happen. They also over-estimated the Hawthorn playing list , which was way past its prime.

Also, many members who attended the Freemasons Hall meeting were exposed to scandalous lobbying by supposedly neutral MFC staff, and Arthur Andersen employees who were manning the polling booths. This happened to me, and I witnessed it happening countless times to others.

Also, the press and others who stated that the MFC vote proved that the majority of MFC members wanted the merge ,gravely underestimated the resolve of the very large number of members who opposed it , and who were aware of the shonky election. I'm convinced that we never would have merged with Hawthorn, even if they'd voted "for" it.

[Craig Drinker 179]

Boy have you got it wrong!

Joe was on the scene weeks before the vote, promising to contribute to save the club. There was even a rally at the MCG at which the MCC allowed Demons fans in to the committee room to view the trophies and pennants won by the Dees, and Joe was there signing autographs. And he wasn't the only bloke there wearing a red and blue yamulkah either.

As for the vote: it was crooked. Hundreds if not thousands of members were locked out of the Dallas Brooks Centre and could not get in to cast their vote. The vote "passed" only narrowly but may not have survived a Supreme Court challenge in any case because of the way so many members were disenfranchised (prevented from voting) because of the way it was carried out.

The legal challenge became moot as they say in legal circles (in other words did not matter a rat's ----) after Hawthorn voted against it.

FYI Joe was introduced to the club via a grass roots group called the Demon Alternative which had premiership player Brian Dixon as its figure head and ordinary supporters as their meat and bones.

Joe ultimately contributed $2.7 million of the $3 million he promised - it was not a loan. At the time the Hawks were in more trouble than Melbourne. Melb wanted a summer training base and the Hawks had one at Glenferrie. We also wanted a social club and they had one of them. What they also had that we did not was a residual mass support. Their post-1960 era almost - but not quite - matched Melbourne's post 1938 era (10 premierships ins 25 years) and that's why they have found such a strong supporter base since rebuilding. Our golden era is just too distant.

Good accurate post Pitmaster! There was also the strong rumour of many dodgy proxy votes circulating.

What annoys me is that everyone's recollection is that the Melbourne mebers voted for the merger which was technically correct.However if the vote was held properly and without the devious tactics with the locking out of members,dodgy proxy votes etc, there is no way on Earth that the majority of legitimate Melbourne members would have voted for the merger.

This was a very sad part of our history that should never be allowed to be repeated!

[Sir Why You Little 37,034]

I think a lot of the MFC members who voted "FOR" the merger were under the mistaken impression that Melbourne would effectively "take over" Hawthorn, and that , before long, we'd be back in the same jumpers as the Demons, with Dunstall at full-forward. These were the lukewarm supporters, looking for an "easy fix".

They gravely underestimated the passion of the Hawks, who never would have let that happen. They also over-estimated the Hawthorn playing list , which was way past its prime.

Also, many members who attended the Freemasons Hall meeting were exposed to scandalous lobbying by supposedly neutral MFC staff, and Arthur Andersen employees who were manning the polling booths. This happened to me, and I witnessed it happening countless times to others.

Also, the press and others who stated that the MFC vote proved that the majority of MFC members wanted the merge ,gravely underestimated the resolve of the very large number of members who opposed it , and who were aware of the shonky election. I'm convinced that we never would have merged with Hawthorn, even if they'd voted "for" it.

Well Said Jumping Jack-I will always remember that night. Demon supporters were mighty passionate & we still are regardless of media stereotypes.

[pitmaster 3,549]

As for the people getting locked out, it's true, but not for any sinister reasons that's been suggested in this thread. The place was absolutely full. They literally couldn't fit any more poeple in. The suggestion that pro merger voters were somehow snuck in and the anti merger voters were locked outside is laughable.

I suggested nothing of the sort. I stated only the fact that hundreds, if not thousands were disenfranchised.

What on earth made you read such a sinister interpretation into my words?

[Yencks 8]

As for the vote: it was crooked. Hundreds if not thousands of members were locked out of the Dallas Brooks Centre and could not get in to cast their vote. The vote "passed" only narrowly but may not have survived a Supreme Court challenge in any case because of the way so many members were disenfranchised (prevented from voting) because of the way it was carried out.

The legal challenge became moot as they say in legal circles (in other words did not matter a rat's ----) after Hawthorn voted against it.

Have you read "Urge to Murge?" I am in the situation where I was six at this time and do not have the slightest of memories of the merger. However, from what Ian Ridley said, the night was postponed for more than an hour and a half because many more people than expected went to Dallas Brooks Hall. I think he also says that the vote was not rigged in anyway and there is nothing to say that of those who didn't get in, more were going to vote anti merger.

Furthermore, in reply to your Supreme Court statement, Ridley reveals in his book that neither clubs legally needed the majority support of members, however thought that there was no point of forcing an amalgamation without the support of the members. Hence, I don't know how this could have gone to the Supreme Court if the member vote was not actually a binding process....

[Yencks 8]

I hope Tiger felt that he and the club and the supporters had got beyond the acrimony of that night and he understood he was revered and respected as the extraordinary Melbourne man that he truly was. If we ever need reminding of what a great man Tiger was, have a read of The Red Fox.

surely the standing ovation he received at the 2001 team of the century evening showed him this.

ps, just finished urge to murge and about to start the red fox

[dreamin' man 0]

Most of the dodgy stuff went on in the weeks before the vote. I kept lots of the pamphlets, flyers & many newspaper stories from the campaign (plus a couple of No Merger signs from that round 22 game v. Hawthorn) & looking at them recently I was surprised at how bitter the language is in the stuff put out by the club attacking the Demon Alternative. Was reading one that was claiming some tax problem w. the money Joe was promising. The night at Dallas Brooks was more chaotic that anything -- they were caught out by how many turned up.

[sideshowbob 0]

Club Mergers should never happen. I use the NRL as an example. They are going Broke-The passions have been diluted, the money not as strong.

I would rather the MFC died as its own entity than merge with another Foe.

Fitzroys connection to the Brisbane lions is nothing more than a dead carcus.

I dispute your NRL comparison. The NRL clubs that are going broke are Cronulla and Parramatta. Neither of them merged. Wests Magpies and Balmain Tigers merged to become the Wests Tigers and won a premiership. St.George Illawarra merged and made a grand final in their first season. The only failed merger was the Northern Eagles because it didn't respect the histories of the previous clubs in the way the other mergers did. Manly came back from the joint venture and made a grand final then (as much as we Storm supporters don't want to acknowledge) won a premiership.

If you respect the history of the previous clubs, mergers can work.

That being said, I don't want the demons to merge.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Was it a merger we were voting for? Or a takeover? There's been a lot of conjecture about that, does anyone know what the term was? Or was it one of those things where Hawks fans called it a merger and we called it a takeover?

[beelzebub 23,353]

I was under the impression it was a merger..and I couldnt get in to vote that night..was surpised ( pleasantly ) at turnout..Not so pleased with how it all went.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

Two more facts that I have not seen mentioned on this topic.

A former Director of the club paid for a thousand memberships and therefore 1000 proxy votes. When challenged about that on that fateful night at Dallas Brooks Hall, he could only respond, "I have done nothing wrong".

Secondly, it is now written into the club's constitution that no merger could ever take place in the future, unless 75% of the membership voted for such a proposal and I doubt that will ever happen.

Let's not forget, former Hawthorn President, Brian Coleman, was equally committed to the "merger" proposition. It is highly likely that if it were not for Don Scott's "farewell" performance, Hawthorn may have voted in favour.

I am a great support of the late Tiger, but the merger debacle, its proponents and those who sought to dupe the membership, made this nothing but a cynical exercise and I suspect, the MFC Board, did, at the time, in fact, see it as a takeover rather than a merger.

Thankfully, the whole sorry episode is now consigned to history.

[Ghost 0]

Essentially, the Melbourne members who voted in favour of the 'merger' were voting for a takeover of the Hawthorn football club.

From memory 52% of the MFC vote favoured the merger. Hardly overwhelming, especially considering the tactics employed to 'win' the vote.

What is surprising, and something that is hardly ever mentioned, especially by Hawthron supporters, is that 35% of Hawks members voted in favour of what was essentially a takeover, and the death of the Hawthorn Football Club. That figure is shocking considering the deal that was on the table.

If it were a Hawthorn takeover of the Melbourne Football Club, it is very likely that the vote numbers would have been reversed.

And has been mentioned, even had the Hawthorn vote been in favour of the merger, the Melbourne vote would have been taken to court and dismissed.

[Sir Why You Little 37,034]

I dispute your NRL comparison. The NRL clubs that are going broke are Cronulla and Parramatta. Neither of them merged. Wests Magpies and Balmain Tigers merged to become the Wests Tigers and won a premiership. St.George Illawarra merged and made a grand final in their first season. The only failed merger was the Northern Eagles because it didn't respect the histories of the previous clubs in the way the other mergers did. Manly came back from the joint venture and made a grand final then (as much as we Storm supporters don't want to acknowledge) won a premiership.

If you respect the history of the previous clubs, mergers can work.

That being said, I don't want the demons to merge.

Point taken sideshow, i was talking more of the whole competition with the NRL. I get the impression that the whole comp has diluted. Jumper designs seem to change yearly.

Premierships have been won yes, but are they as special to a supporter as to a stand alone club. I doubt it. (what do Fitzroy supporters REALLY feel deep down about Brisbanes 3 peat?) A little hollow would be my guess.

Is it not True that the NRL does not have the $$ to bail out the 2 teams Cronulla & Parramatta.

It shall be interesting to see the state of the NRL in 10 years.