Melb, Freo and WC

[beelzebub 23,380]

Match-day tactics (or lack thereof).

ie. Leaving a kid on someone who's giving him a towelling for 'experience' - not something you'd do in a grand final.

very much so...all in the cause of 'experience'

actually all cynicism aside..sometimes babtisms of fire are required.. sometimes its a genuine tool of learning to 'have' to continue in a seeming lost cause scenario... it hardens the mind. You either step up to it.. beating the opponent ISNT the goal . Being able to apply oneself even when all looks lost is invaluable..

Sometimes it has nothing to do with the result..just how it was obtained. You can learn much about a persons resolve in these situations..often more than when things are going well. This is actually an invaluable benchmarking exercise for coaches.

You want to know who wont buckle.

And you can do all this whilst finals arent an 'interuption "

[furious d 469]

Part of what I've liked about Bailey this year is players being picked on form, they've had to earn their spot. We are trying to build a new culture with a young list. The players aren't stupid, I just think it would be self defeating to abandon the principle of reward for effort in order to get a deal done a bit easier. I'm not 100% clear on the trade rules and PSD but surely if Warnock wants to go home, we're his preferred club and have the highest pick of the Vic clubs then we are in the box seat and should be able to get the deal done.

[Rogue 585]

Part of what I've liked about Bailey this year is players being picked on form, they've had to earn their spot. We are trying to build a new culture with a young list. The players aren't stupid, I just think it would be self defeating to abandon the principle of reward for effort

I agree with you, and don't think we necessarily need to drop that in order to have a pretty low finish (even if we're trying to finish bottom).

Certainly. I wasn't suggesting that the scenario I mentioned would have no value to the player involved - simply that you may not do it if you needed to win the game in order to make finals, win a final, or whatever. However, that doesn't apply to us.

[dee-luded 2,959]

To miss the priority we'd need to win 4 of our last 9, it's unlikely and missing the extra pick would hurt. However, it would certainly give a very young side a lot of confidence for next year, especially with Brock gone. If they did manage to win 3 more I'd be proud of the boys and wouldn't be too upset, it's different to last year somehow. Having said that I hope we win 2 more .

The more I hear about Watts the more I think he could be right for us, I'll reserve final judgement till closer to the draft but number 1 pick is looking less important by the week. If we do end up with Robbie Warnock, a top 3 and 2 more top 20 picks. All while avoiding the spoon, I'll be absolutely stoked!

IMO Watts will go in the first 2, thats 2, 1st or 2nd pick. Big gamble you propose with our club.

[occo 2]

Winning or not winning a spoon is irelevant...gaining the ability to get the players we want/need IS.

Couldnt care less if we got a spoon...such memories are easily erased by a cup!!

My concern presently is is we dont finish in the box seat then we will have to trade clever if we are to get Warnock. If we're last its a monty!!

2008 is about positioning.. 2009 is about getting serious. Prioritites people...priorities !!

Here Here. I cant understand people on here who think that nats (a tallanted player who would get plenty of supporters and attention to the club) is worthy of losing so we can win just a few games in the year, and feel 'good'. I have not watched footy this year and been disopointed for nothing. winning is not important this year. We need the earliest pick possible so the recruiting staff have all means to do there job as well as they can with any player at all to choose from. We need the #1 PSD pick to allow us to pick players like Prismill and Warnock. I am happy to loose every game this year and still turn up at games. But winning should not be the #1 priority. If we got pick 1, there is the potentual to use that as best as possible like saying we will trade for example Bruce + pick 1 for pick 4 + 10. That way we get 2 picks in the 10. Unlikely that will happen but my point is we need to finish last to give DB and the staff the best chances of snaring guns in the draft. I know theres prob only us 2 on here that agree but wanting the team to lose doesent make u a bad supporter.

[Dannyz 2,761]

Where do we all think the MFC will finish next year.

With another good pre-season into our youngsters and a bit more experience. Add a couple of (hopefully) talented first round draft picks, could we push for a top eight finish or is that a few years away yet.

I think this club will thrive under Dean Baileys management. Could be a while yet though.

[Jaded No More 68,966]

Here Here. I cant understand people on here who think that nats (a tallanted player who would get plenty of supporters and attention to the club) is worthy of losing so we can win just a few games in the year, and feel 'good'. I have not watched footy this year and been disopointed for nothing. winning is not important this year. We need the earliest pick possible so the recruiting staff have all means to do there job as well as they can with any player at all to choose from. We need the #1 PSD pick to allow us to pick players like Prismill and Warnock. I am happy to loose every game this year and still turn up at games. But winning should not be the #1 priority. If we got pick 1, there is the potentual to use that as best as possible like saying we will trade for example Bruce + pick 1 for pick 4 + 10. That way we get 2 picks in the 10. Unlikely that will happen but my point is we need to finish last to give DB and the staff the best chances of snaring guns in the draft. I know theres prob only us 2 on here that agree but wanting the team to lose doesent make u a bad supporter.

Winning is probably not our number one priority, list development is, as evident by the continuous changes made to the team each week, and the fact that Bruce is our oldest player at the moment.

However, the longer these kids play together, the more comfortable they become with the dynamics of the group and with the game plan, and if they win along the way because they are finally playing tough, accountable football, well you can't deny them that.

We are obviously not risking anyone who is less than 100% fit, and we're playing the kids, you can't try and lose any harder than that... not if you want to develop a long-term winning culture, which is equally if not more important than having first pick (which I desperately want!)

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

I have not watched footy this year and been disopointed for nothing. winning is not important this year. We need the earliest pick possible so the recruiting staff have all means to do there job as well as they can with any player at all to choose from.

Why is it you can't grasp the fact that pick 1 may indeed be just as good as pick 3 or 2? There are NOT that many kids drafted at one that went on to be better players than ANY to be taken in their draft. We need EVERY type of player, and the top 3 selections this year, it seems, will be one of 3... Ruckman, Midfielder or KP player. I get the feeling that (this isn't necessarily you) people think that the fact NickNat is so distinct, that it'll bring people through the gates. I tell you what, a bold CHF or lightning midfielder will do just the same. And there's as much chance that his freakish athleticism will attract clubs to him, but not be able to turn him into a footballer.

We need the #1 PSD pick to allow us to pick players like Prismill and Warnock.

I'll give you that. I hope we don't miss out on Warnock when we get pick 2.

wanting the team to lose doesent make u a bad supporter.

Ummmm. Yes it does. Because you think that losing creates premierships. You are WRONG occo. There are so many things that create premierships that it would take weeks to write them all down. Winning culture is one of those things. Teaching the younger kids is working right now. Selecting a team that will mature at the same time is another thing that's important. Geelong didn't come 16th and look at them!!! Hawthorn never went as bad as us... The Cats actually just took over a couple of drafts in a row and let them mature beautifully. The Hawks are reaping the same benefit. How many times can we quote these two examples of teams that DIDN'T completely bottom out for the message to get through?

Though I do think you have something with the proposition of pick 1 + Bruce (or whoever) for pick 10 and 4... My only concern with THAT is that I have a feeling that the top 1-3, maybe 1-4 picks are a bit ahead of the rest. If we fall outside them we may be in a bit of trouble. I also think the recruiting department would get in trouble for trading a pick #1 at ANY time from supporters, media etc etc...

That said, it's a good point...

[beelzebub 23,380]

Ummmm. Yes it does. Because you think that losing creates premierships. You are WRONG occo.

I disagree.. as with anything theres a time and a place. You rejuvenate the land by burning it.. In fact often certains seeds will ONLY germinate after a good burn.

On the surface there is only one goal of playing a game..to win. But dig deeper and there are many subplots going on in a game.

If you are in reasonably good shape and wel lhoned then losing certainly isnt the ideal. When you're not..it can be a tool.

[furious d 469]

IMO Watts will go in the first 2, thats 2, 1st or 2nd pick. Big gamble you propose with our club.

It's you lot that propose a gamble, I'm merely suggesting we play football and let the cards fall where they may. It's fine for you lot to sit back on yuor comfy chair and declare we MUST FINISH LAST! But the reality is HOW?

For arguements sake lets say we get up over the bullies this week and despite a few changes pump Freo in Perth a week later. What would you suggest Bailey do? Hobble a few blokes. Jaded is spot on, we're already playing the kids and noone is playing injured

Just who is the mythical premiership team you wannabe losers are trying to emulate, St Kilda 2003, Freo 2005?

[beelzebub 23,380]

We are a different kettle of fish. We arent trying to emulate anyone. Its all very noble to suggest winning for the sake of winning..after all there's supposedly some carry over effect into 09.. No theres not. One season ends..another starts. Different personnel to some degreee, a different balance to the side. More experience for some.. another preseason for others. It changes.

Some might be happy letting things just "unfold" , astute organisations dont !! They try to control what they can.

We've already explained the HOW.. you just dont want to accept the WHY !!

[Bingo 305]

Doesn't matter where we finish (will be in the bottom 3), i'm just worried about losing our priority pick.

Would be the equivalent of not getting Maric last year........now i know he hasn't played yet but for the sake of a win i'd love another early 2nd round draft pick.

[Geddy Lee 582]

Doesn't matter where we finish (will be in the bottom 3), i'm just worried about losing our priority pick.

Would be the equivalent of not getting Maric last year........now i know he hasn't played yet but for the sake of a win i'd love another early 2nd round draft pick.

I agree.

The Top 5 this year are very very strong, and there is no clear cut number one. It would not hurt the club to Finish 14/15th as much as some here are saying.

[furious d 469]

Some might be happy letting things just "unfold" , astute organisations dont !! They try to control what they can.

We've already explained the HOW.. you just dont want to accept the WHY !!

I don't accept the why but I understand your reasoning. The problem I have bub is your how. It guarantee's nothing and that's my point. What do the coaching staff do if despite their best efforts at the subtle art of tanking, the side keeps winning. You can't answer that. I don't think it will happen but it might. If it does you'll all be moaning about our failure at failing.

[beelzebub 23,380]

15 Western Bulldogs Telstra Dome

16 Fremantle Subiaco Oval

17 Kangaroos Melbourne Cricket Ground

18 Essendon Melbourne Cricket Ground

19 Geelong Melbourne Cricket Ground

20 West Coast Melbourne Cricket Ground

21 Port Adelaide AAMI Stadium

22 Richmond Melbourne Cricket Ground

Thats our run home. I think its reasaonable to call 15 & 19 as losses

Which leaves Freo, Roos, Dons, Weagles, Port and the Toiges. As it happens they are al lbottom eight sides and arguably the easiest run home of any team.

The Roos and Tiges still harbour final eight spots. Id currently feel these are winnable.. but I dont think we will

The games against Freo Essendon the Eagles and Port could be interesting

I believe Choco is under a fair degree of pressure to resurrect some street cred down Alberton way

.At AAMI our likelyhood is for a loss. We just dont do well there. A fairly close game I think though.

Much depends on the attitude of little Johnny and his band of rag tag feathery fiends. The Eagles as a club dont relsih bottom. I stand to be corrected but I dnt think they have finished last for ...well ever and must be 20 odd years since they were even clellar dwellers. I dont think they will start any time soon. West Coast play the G as good as any team going around. This is a winnable game.... Essendon will fancy themselves...which team comes to play ?? who knows.. on their day they will win..I think theres a chance there also.

Freo...Freo....Freo... at Subi no less.only a 33% strike rate there..they have a 53% hit rate

There are two games where there is possibly no great incentive to win for the opposition..other than pride..or 'local' pressure. They also are our greatest rivals to the best picks.

All of the above..is simply the WHAT

The WHY is as stated many times ...to finish last is to give oneself the best vantage position for trade/draft etc.

Now much is said about the number 1 pick. That its not always the best. Very true...20/20 hindsight suggests there have been better choices. But concensus at the time was that many of these players were the best of the best at that time. So what went wrong. Much depends on what team a player is drafted to.Even more goes towards teh efforts of the recruiting staff and scouts etc . This is becoming far more refined and deeply worked on as the years go by.Its much more a refined science than it was 10 years ago. But there are two elements to al lthis #1 wsnt so crach hot after all stuff. The first is the selection position. The second is who you pick. Just getting the first look in doesnt guarantee success , not if you dont choose wisely. Histotry suggest many choices werent the best. That doesnt negate the value of being first in best dressed..just emphasises that you dont want to waste it.

Only one team gets first pick. Sounds ludicously simple.. but it really has ramificatons.

This year is even more important as for a wile we will no longer have an evens /stevens effort at the draft. Some sugest its double or treble so important to get the best pickings THIS year.

Again finishing last means we get dibs on #1 nat draft..#1 in PSD. It also take some other teams out of the equation regarding on trading etc..WE GET TO CHOOSE.

The HOW many have mentioned various sublte shananagans. There's selection. There's the 'injured' list..Theres off to hospital yong man and get fit for next year. There's Lets play someone out of position "just to see how they go". There's reduced interchanges...might just take the edge off of them. Mis-matches..or making chnages a bit "late" allowingthe oppo to gain a foot hold etc.. In just as many ways as you can try to win a game, so can you thwart it.

What if we win...well we win..lol good for them. But is a little bit of short term congratualtions really worth it compared to longer term strategems ?

Do you want to win the battle...or the war ??