Anyone for cricket?

[grazman 6,423]

2 hours ago, Accepting Mediocrity said:

Clutching at straws to blame Paine for that, he had a good test (and a pretty good series save for the horror show in Sydney). 320 should have been enough, we lost the series because Cummins and Hazlewood were the only two bowlers that showed up. Every time Starc or Lyon came on the pressure evaporated. Nothing wrong with Paine's fields so not sure how you can pin it on him.

Full credit to India, one of the all time great backs to the wall performances. Pant is a star.

Agree.

Cummins and Hazelwood are class and we should have rotated Pattinson for Starc earlier (I think he plays too much red ball cricket based on what he can do with a white ball)  and personally I would have loved to have seen Jhye Richardson back in the team for Brisbane, but Lyon was always going to play his hundredth test.  

I think Paine has to accept some of the blame for not closing out the last two tests and also the debacle in Leeds in 2019.  My primary criticism of him is that unlike previous captains he can't stop the momentum of opposition batting sides with bowling changes and field placements.  He places far too much trust in bowlers who simply aren't delivering.  Particularly after Adelaide when there was absolutely no swing from any of the quicks and Lyon was always going to struggle against a side where off spinners are grist for the mill.

Headingly - England batting in the last and win  Lyon's figures -  2/114 

Sydney - India bat last and draw  Lyon's figures - 2/114, Starc 0/75

Brisbane - India bat last and win Lyon's figures 2/55, Starc 0/66

Does anyone think we put in Carey or McDermott at 5 as specialist batsmen?

Edited January 19, 2021 by grazman

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,610]

I agree that it would be ridiculous to blame Paine for our bad batting. 
It would be handy if he took a routine catch or two, and a regulation stumping off Lyon, who must be fuming.

If he remains captain( though he’s getting pretty old), he and Langer better have a good hard think about  field placings and  bowling changes.
I’m not sure if there’s a good keeper in Australia( by the way, Carey will  be 30 before the Ashes, so he’s no spring chicken).What’s Philippe like as a keeper, ?...I know he can bat, ditto McDermott, but  he’s late 20s)So when the selectors think we need a new keeper(? 2025), perhaps we should go for the best batsmen, since the keepers are all likely to perform disastrously like Tim did.

Paine’s batting surprised and pleased me in this series. He still only has 2 first class centuries at the age of 36.  I’m not sure he can keep up the form he showed this series, but I hope so.

Edited January 19, 2021 by Jumping Jack Clennett
Stat error

[Docs Demons 1,658]

2 hours ago, grazman said:

Agree.

Cummins and Hazelwood are class and we should have rotated Pattinson for Starc earlier (I think he plays too much red ball cricket based on what he can do with a white ball)  and personally I would have loved to have seen Jhye Richardson back in the team for Brisbane, but Lyon was always going to play his hundredth test.  

I think Paine has to accept some of the blame for not closing out the last two tests and also the debacle in Leeds in 2019.  My primary criticism of him is that unlike previous captains he can't stop the momentum of opposition batting sides with bowling changes and field placements.  He places far too much trust in bowlers who simply aren't delivering.  Particularly after Adelaide when there was absolutely no swing from any of the quicks and Lyon was always going to struggle against a side where off spinners are grist for the mill.

Headingly - England batting in the last and win  Lyon's figures -  2/114 

Sydney - India bat last and draw  Lyon's figures - 2/114, Starc 0/75

Brisbane - India bat last and win Lyon's figures 2/55, Starc 0/66

Does anyone think we put in Carey or McDermott at 5 as specialist batsmen?

India's 2nd eleven were to good for us but boy did we stuff up both up here in Brissie and in Sydney and I put is purely on the shoulders of the coach and captain. We bowled way to short and when we bowl that short stuff it is so hard to set a field. I was at the Gabba on first day and India hardly bowled a short ball. It is so much easier to skipper and place your field when bowlers instructed to pitch up and bowl on or outside off. Batters can only play through the arc and gives our bowlers a chance of the ball moving off the pitch. Hard for the pill to move when hits your end of pitch.

Time to move on and perfect chance to make huge moves. I would keep ONLY Marnis, Smith, Cummins and Hazelwood and fill the other 7 spots with newbies.

[Accepting Mediocrity 1,418]

13 hours ago, Macca said:

Pattinson could have played in at least 2 or 3 of the Tests and we wouldn't have been worse off.  Patto is a Test standard quick after all

Pattinson is injured again, wasn't available for the Sydney test so I assume he wasn't fit for Brisbane either. In hindsight, we probably should have given Neser a debut on his home deck in place of Starc. Hindsight is easy of course, Starc was still topping 145kms deep into day 5 so you'd think his drop in form is mostly above the shoulders. Conditions haven't suited him, but he hasn't looked right all summer.

14 hours ago, Macca said:

Since Michael Clarke we've only produced one long term A Grade Elite batsman - Smith.  Labuschagne could get there but he is not there yet

Warner is good on home decks but struggles overseas. 

Is there anyone else AM?

I'm willing to put Labuschagne in the elite category now, he's played 18 tests in enough conditions to show that it's not a fluke. Things always seem bad after a home series loss, but I don't think our batting stocks are completely dire. Pucovski, Smith, Labuschagne and Green look like a good nucleus for the next 4 years plus. We're an opener short assuming Warner is nearly done. Renshaw has faded badly, but he looked ok in the few tests he's played and he's still only 24 - hopefully he's one that can step up. The #5 spot has question marks all over it. Head's been inconsistent, but he's only 27 and has time to improve. Otherwise I don't mind the look of Kurtis Patterson (although injured and out of form lately). Fraser-McGurk is a few years away but looks a real talent as well.

Our lack of spin bowling depth is a problem that doesn't seem to get mentioned. Will be an issue next time we tour the subcontinent for sure. Swepson maybe? Assuming Green's bowling improves (which I think it will), that gives us the option of playing 2 spinners. I'd be trying to find our next test spinner before Lyon retires (which could be sooner than later given his recent form).

11 hours ago, Docs Demons said:

Time to move on and perfect chance to make huge moves. I would keep ONLY Marnis, Smith, Cummins and Hazelwood and fill the other 7 spots with newbies.

Controversial opinion maybe, but I'd do the opposite for the SA tour. Green and Pucovski pick themselves in the top 6, but I think that's enough youth. I'd look at playing someone like Khawaja at 5. Not the answer long-term, but at the end of the day he's got a test average of 40+, and in the absence of any youngsters piling on runs in the Shield he's probably better than anyone else. I think it's counter productive to pick someone just because they're young, then shatter their confidence by dropping them when they inevitably don't make runs.

I think Starc is a 'horses for courses' bowler, he's deadly if it's swinging but a liability on flat wickets. I'd replace him with Pattinson (if fit) or Neser, I don't buy the 'you need a left arm quick because footmarks for Lyon' argument. 

 

[Accepting Mediocrity 1,418]

Also, take nothing away from India. We had a lot of passengers, but Pujara was an absolute wall against some brutally hostile bowling from Cummins. Pant also played the innings of his life (again). The kind of resilience in the face of adversity that you can only dream of as a dees supporter.

[Macca 16,173]

You've made a number of good points AM but our top 7 includes only 2 absolute mainstays

The 2 debutants need lots of time,  Warner may not be the same batsman he once was (and he struggles overseas) and the 5 spot is not occupied by an A Grade Elite player either

Paine is a good keeper but not great and his batting is reasonably good without being outstanding.  As a captain* he's there by default and he's done about as well as he could have done

My ideal top 7 means that every spot is filled with an A Grade Elite player.  Nothing less

 

*I wouldn't be going back to Smith as captain but that might happen

[Accepting Mediocrity 1,418]

We've been spoilt for batting depth for a long time Macca! Sadly the days of Lehman, Hussey, Katich et al toiling away in the Sheffield Shield seem to be over for now. It's been an issue for a fair while, but Smith and lately Labuschane have been good enough to paper over the cracks.

I agree with you on Paine, I think he's exceeded most people's (fairly low it must be said) expectations as captain. It will be interesting to see if he captains the Ashes side next summer - it probably hinges on how the tour of South Africa goes you'd think. When he steps down (probably either just before or after the Ashes), I'd be giving the captaincy to Marnus. Sends the wrong message to give it back to Smith, and the idea of a fast bowler (Cummins) captaining doesn't sit well with me. There aren't any other alternatives really. 

[Macca 16,173]

1 hour ago, Accepting Mediocrity said:

We've been spoilt for batting depth for a long time Macca! Sadly the days of Lehman, Hussey, Katich et al toiling away in the Sheffield Shield seem to be over for now. It's been an issue for a fair while, but Smith and lately Labuschane have been good enough to paper over the cracks.

I agree with you on Paine, I think he's exceeded most people's (fairly low it must be said) expectations as captain. It will be interesting to see if he captains the Ashes side next summer - it probably hinges on how the tour of South Africa goes you'd think. When he steps down (probably either just before or after the Ashes), I'd be giving the captaincy to Marnus. Sends the wrong message to give it back to Smith, and the idea of a fast bowler (Cummins) captaining doesn't sit well with me. There aren't any other alternatives really. 

Agreed

Not sure the South African tour will go ahead though with the stronger strain of the virus emanating from that country

Could be played elsewhere (even in Oz)

Edited January 20, 2021 by Macca

[Demonstone 19,084]

Very well played by India and a thoroughly deserved 4th test and series win after the "Adelaide 36ers" debacle and all the injuries to their better players they suffered over the course of the tour.

I am a little surprised that nobody on here has as yet blamed Simon Goodwin for Australia's losses.  

[COOLX 140]

Steve Smith should have been  reinstated as captain as soon as his penalty was up. I wouldn't have Paine in any test side. Green is yet to prove he is an allrounder, batsman yes. Starc was carrying an injury , we should rotate the quicks possibly with a medium pacer for variety. Unfortunate we didn't have two fit openers. Wade and Harris are not up to it , I am surprise we didn't select a Marsh.

[dl4e 5,583]

We lost because of our batting. A good opening pair is the mainstay of a good side. We did not have one. There are 2 elder players I would be dropping and that is Warner and Starc. I would be looking to replace lyon as well. There is nothing wrong with Zampa not sure about Swepson though. The 4 batsmen I would keep are Pucovski, Labu, The unit and Green. I would dare to open with Pucovski and Harris.

[Accepting Mediocrity 1,418]

We haven't had a good opening combination since Hayden and Langer retired. Katich and Warner were great but never played together, the rest of our openers have been a steady string of NQRs. I'd leave Warner in for the SA series (assuming it goes ahead), his record over there is actually pretty good besides sandpapergate. I like Harris but he's looking more and more like another NQR with each passing test. I'm all for giving batsmen an extended run, but 2 x 50's in 10 tests doesn't cut it. Bryce Street is one to watch, he's been making big runs opening the batting for QLD and he's only 22. I'd open with Warner and Pucovski for the SA tour and the Ashes, provided their form is OK. 

Zampa isn't a red ball cricketer, his first class bowling average is nudging 50 at 4 an over. Great limited overs player though. I'm hoping Pope develops into a test quality leggie, but he's pretty raw. At least he can turn it.

[grazman 6,423]

On 1/20/2021 at 7:30 PM, COOLX said:

I am surprise we didn't select a Marsh.

Pleasantly surprised!

23 hours ago, Accepting Mediocrity said:

I like Harris but he's looking more and more like another NQR with each passing test.

He has a major weakness in that he plays his cut shots in the air.  He was told by Matthew Hayden when batting day 1 at the Gabba to forget playing cross-bat shots.  It appears he either didn't take the advice on or forgot it as soon as the ball got above hip height.

[Macca 16,173]

Here's an intricate and eye-opening article by Greg Chappell about the state of cricket in India and how we fare as a comparison

'Only Surprise is that Anyone can Compete with India at all'

 

Footnote: The good news (!) is that we don't play India again in a Test series until October 2022 (4 Test series in India)

Personally I'd rather be playing India earlier than that but we've got nearly 2 years to prepare at least

Edited January 23, 2021 by Macca

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,610]

Barracking for the Melbourne Stars is very like going for the Demons!

[nosoupforme 3,085]

On 1/23/2021 at 9:07 PM, Macca said:

Here's an intricate and eye-opening article by Greg Chappell about the state of cricket in India and how we fare as a comparison

'Only Surprise is that Anyone can Compete with India at all'

 

Footnote: The good news (!) is that we don't play India again in a Test series until October 2022 (4 Test series in India)

Personally I'd rather be playing India earlier than that but we've got nearly 2 years to prepare at least

Carey in for the South Africa Tests replacing Wade .   Good Call,  time for new faces.            

 

 

                                                                                    

Edited January 27, 2021 by nosoupforme

[titan_uranus 22,287]

So the South Africa series has been called off. Sad, but not surprising.

Has big ramifications for the WTC, if anyone cares about that.

Losing the series to India was bad enough but we also lost 4 points for a slow over rate in Melbourne. As a result, without the SA series, whether we make the final depends on the India-England series.

We'll make it if the series is drawn at any score, or India win 1-0, or England win 1-0, 2-0 or 2-1. Which all means we're unlikely to make it.

[Macca 16,173]

The other main issue coming as a consequence of the cancelled South Africa tour is the small amount of Test cricket the team will have played in the last 12 months and in the next 12 months

Before the India Tests we hadn't played a Test since early January 2020 (NZ) and aside from the 4 Tests against India we may not be playing another Test until Nov 2021 (Ashes)

That's 4 Tests played over a near 2 year period.  Covid aside, surely the Board can get the team playing some meaningful red ball cricket

There is a fair bit of white ball cricket scheduled this year but for Test cricket fanatics,  the cupboard is bare

[titan_uranus 22,287]

11 hours ago, Macca said:

The other main issue coming as a consequence of the cancelled South Africa tour is the small amount of Test cricket the team will have played in the last 12 months and in the next 12 months

Before the India Tests we hadn't played a Test since early January 2020 (NZ) and aside from the 4 Tests against India we may not be playing another Test until Nov 2021 (Ashes)

That's 4 Tests played over a near 2 year period.  Covid aside, surely the Board can get the team playing some meaningful red ball cricket

There is a fair bit of white ball cricket scheduled this year but for Test cricket fanatics,  the cupboard is bare

Agree Macca. The India series was wonderful marketing for the Test cricket product.

In the meantime, England has the upcoming four Test series in India. Then it has a two-Test home series vs New Zealand, and then a five-Test home series vs India. So it has 11 Tests between now and the Ashes against the clear two best sides in the world outside of Australia and England (if not actually the best two sides).

They also played two Tests in mid/late January 2020 in South Africa, then three Tests vs the Windies and three vs Pakistan in their 2020 summer, plus the recent two against Sri Lanka.

Which all means that from the end of the January 2020 Sydney Test vs New Zealand until the start of the 2021/22 Ashes in November 2021, we will have played four Tests whilst England will have played 21.

21 Tests to 4 in preparation for the Ashes.

Surely Australia can invite someone here to play some Test match cricket at a non-AFL ground in our winter? Or instead of playing South Africa, if NZ isn't doing anything we can head over there and play them? 

[Macca 16,173]

2 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

Agree Macca. The India series was wonderful marketing for the Test cricket product.

In the meantime, England has the upcoming four Test series in India. Then it has a two-Test home series vs New Zealand, and then a five-Test home series vs India. So it has 11 Tests between now and the Ashes against the clear two best sides in the world outside of Australia and England (if not actually the best two sides).

They also played two Tests in mid/late January 2020 in South Africa, then three Tests vs the Windies and three vs Pakistan in their 2020 summer, plus the recent two against Sri Lanka.

Which all means that from the end of the January 2020 Sydney Test vs New Zealand until the start of the 2021/22 Ashes in November 2021, we will have played four Tests whilst England will have played 21.

21 Tests to 4 in preparation for the Ashes.

Surely Australia can invite someone here to play some Test match cricket at a non-AFL ground in our winter? Or instead of playing South Africa, if NZ isn't doing anything we can head over there and play them? 

Excellent summary t_u

On top of all that our team is far from settled with issues with the batting (mainly) but should we be rotating the quick bowlers?

I'm happy with Paine retaining the captaincy but the team itself is a work in progress.

White ball cricket & the Shield (which doesn't start until October) is our preparation with the Ashes on the line (?)

 

Edit:  The Test players will now be able to play in this year's Sheffield Shield so that adds a bit.  Still, it's not the top level

Edited February 3, 2021 by Macca

[titan_uranus 22,287]

7 hours ago, Macca said:

Excellent summary t_u

On top of all that our team is far from settled with issues with the batting (mainly) but should we be rotating the quick bowlers?

I'm happy with Paine retaining the captaincy but the team itself is a work in progress.

White ball cricket & the Shield (which doesn't start until October) is our preparation with the Ashes on the line (?)

 

Edit:  The Test players will now be able to play in this year's Sheffield Shield so that adds a bit.  Still, it's not the top level

Paine can stay but we need to be ready to move on from him if he can't keep his composure under pressure and/or continues to struggle with the gloves. Funnily enough, until this summer his strengths were his keeping and maturity and his batting was his major weakness. Now that's completely flipped.

I agree that our batting is the pressing issue but the funny thing about the India series is that the Sydney and Brisbane Tests were set up by our batsmen to be won, and then our bowlers failed to get the job done. The bowling unit can be improved.

I'd rotate Starc at the very least, if not drop him altogether. He leaks runs and doesn't take top order wickets when the going is tough. Langer/Paine are too fixated on the fact that he's a leftie, he swings it occasionally, and he has a nice yorker. His results aren't good enough and he flags after any more than two Tests in a series. So as we did in 2019, we need to be ready to have 4+ fast bowlers to play the five Ashes Tests.

It's time to start thinking about Lyon's succession plan. He's a regular failure in the fourth innings, even on favourable Australian pitches. I'm not sure whether Swepson is the next best red ball spinner in the country but someone needs to be ready to come in either during the Ashes or at their conclusion.

The batting isn't an easy fix either. There's no clear number 5 (but Wade's time in the Test side should be over) and I'm not sure what our best opening partnership option is. Keeping Warner in the side gets in the way somewhat, but I suspect he and Pucovski will get the openers' roles. Labuschagne and Smith pick themselves and Green gets to keep his spot at 6. 

[Macca 16,173]

3 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

Paine can stay but we need to be ready to move on from him if he can't keep his composure under pressure and/or continues to struggle with the gloves. Funnily enough, until this summer his strengths were his keeping and maturity and his batting was his major weakness. Now that's completely flipped.

I agree that our batting is the pressing issue but the funny thing about the India series is that the Sydney and Brisbane Tests were set up by our batsmen to be won, and then our bowlers failed to get the job done. The bowling unit can be improved.

I'd rotate Starc at the very least, if not drop him altogether. He leaks runs and doesn't take top order wickets when the going is tough. Langer/Paine are too fixated on the fact that he's a leftie, he swings it occasionally, and he has a nice yorker. His results aren't good enough and he flags after any more than two Tests in a series. So as we did in 2019, we need to be ready to have 4+ fast bowlers to play the five Ashes Tests.

It's time to start thinking about Lyon's succession plan. He's a regular failure in the fourth innings, even on favourable Australian pitches. I'm not sure whether Swepson is the next best red ball spinner in the country but someone needs to be ready to come in either during the Ashes or at their conclusion.

The batting isn't an easy fix either. There's no clear number 5 (but Wade's time in the Test side should be over) and I'm not sure what our best opening partnership option is. Keeping Warner in the side gets in the way somewhat, but I suspect he and Pucovski will get the openers' roles. Labuschagne and Smith pick themselves and Green gets to keep his spot at 6. 

Yeah we've got some issues alright

All the more reason to be playing more Test matches to sort it all out

I see CA offered to play the Tests against South Africa here in Australia but that was rejected.  And South Africa are peeved that we aren't touring

Not sure we had much choice with the stronger strain of Covid seemingly out of control in South Africa.  Not exactly safe no matter what measures were going to be undertaken.  One player gets the dreaded disease and that would be the end of it.  Surely a financial outcome could have been reached if the Tests were played elsewhere (?)

Anyway,  I'll be taking up a stronger interest in the Shield now as well as watching England play in 11 Test matches (9 against India) ?

CA might find a way to pencil in 2 or 3 Test matches from August onwards though.  They must know that the players need to play at Test level on a regular basis

[Cards13 9,117]

Payne is happy to give Smith the captaincy again… Smith should never lead a team ever again. 

[Macca 16,173]

New Zealand are all over England in the 2nd test at Edgbaston ... they should wrap things up before lunch tonight and take the series win.  England lead by a mere 37 runs with only 1 wicket in hand in their 2nd innings.

A nice warm up for the World Test Championship where the Kiwi's will take on India.  Begins on Thursday (18/6) ... being played at Southampton (4000 spectators per day will be allowed to attend)

[Macca 16,173]

5 hours ago, Macca said:

A nice warm up for the World Test Championship where the Kiwi's will take on India.  Begins on Thursday (18/6) ... being played at Southampton (4000 spectators per day will be allowed to attend)

Make that Friday the 18/6 for the New Zealand/India World Test Championship

And the Kiwi's wrapped up the test & series against England about an hour before lunch