Farewell Jesse Hogan

[SFebes 4,692]

Tinkerbell will be busy today in Melbourne, doubt he'll get a standing ovation on arrival.

Edited October 16, 2018 by SFebes

[Wiseblood 24,636]

Mitch Cleary may have reported that Steven May is happy to play for any Vic club, but Jay Clark reckons this mega deal is in play and will happen before the deadline hits tomorrow night:

"PREPARE for the blockbuster trade of all trades.

Dayne Beams, Jesse Hogan, Lachie Neale and Steven May are all set to be part of a five-club deal that will leave Gold Coast with three of the top five picks in the draft.

Herald Sun trade experts Jay Clark and Jon Ralph said Melbourne had softened on its demand of two first-round picks from Fremantle for Hogan and an agreement between the two clubs could unlock a string of other high-profile swaps.

In the mega deal Brisbane would hand pick 5 to the Dockers for Lachie Neale, allowing them to release Dayne Beams to Collingwood.

Fremantle would pass pick 5 on to Melbourne for Hogan, which will send it to the Suns for Steven May.

Final details are still being hammered out and other draft picks will be involved, particularly to sweeten the Hogan deal although it will be short of the two first-round picks the Demons initially demanded. Melbourne will also end up with Gold Coast's Kade Kolodjashnij"

[Diamond_Jim 11,670]

11 minutes ago, hemingway said:

What is the worth of a contract in terms of tenure?

Not much if you consider what has been happening recently. 

The emotional notion of a player wanting to "go home"" seems to be an acceptable reason and clubs take a pragmatic view that they do not want to keep a player who is not committed. This encourages the club to get a good trade deal. In other words, clubs become opportunistic in their view of the whole thing.  

One thing feeds the other. 

How do you change this behaviour or indeed do you want to?

My point is that if you think contracts are important then you need to hold both parties to his terms at least in regard to tenure.

Otherwise, the whole contract thing is a charade, and not worth the paper its written on. Signing a player for a specific period of time is meaningless. 

The only way for this to change is for clubs

-not to recruit interstate players so that the go home factor does not become an issue. 

-include further provisions in the contract that make it clear that both parties will be held to its terms other than in the case of death or disability

-include cost penalty provisions where a party is in breach.

-to ensure that all clubs hold to the terms of the contract and not take the expedient view of trading out the unhappy player.  

These suggestions may appear unrealistic but the alternative is to have an industry where the importance of contracts becomes totally devalued, thereby destabilizing player lists, club planning and coaching strategies.

There is acceptance by supporters that top players become targets for other clubs and that players can try and get the best deal for themselves. Yet at the same time, supporters will become disillusioned if there is the sense that players can just move club at the drop of a hat, on the grounds that they want to go home.

Sure they can go home but consistent with the terms of their contract.  

well argued Hemingway but personal services contracts have rarely been enforced in any industry as no one wants a disgruntled employee. What is done is that you have them stand out of the industry for 6-12 months but even that is fraught with difficulties.

You could have an AFL imposed condition that you must stand out for half a season. Any longer and it would almost certainly get struck down as unenforceable. Even half a season might be too long.

Of course the AFL likes the movement of players.. it's the clubs who hate it.

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

8 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

I know everything.

No, seriously, I'm just going by the fact that pretty much everything is out in the open these days.  Every deal done so far has been discussed prior to it happening, so I highly doubt we've got major things cooking outside of Steven May and KK, which is what I believe Mahoney was referring to.

So you reckon Mahoney's big coup for the trade period was Preuss (A VFL ruckman) and KK (a bloke who has played little football in several seasons). If that is all that we were in to, then we are sitting on our hands. Seeing hawthorn once again top up their list with QUALITY and Geelong adding Gary Rohan and Luke Dalhaus, makes me concerned about sides who finished around us doing more than we are o improve their lists. I fear that many hear just think AFL success is a natural progression and that we have the list to succeed because we made it to a Prelim and next year we will be better. If you dont continually improve your list, you are treading water or going backwards.

What we have built thus far will hold us in good stead. However, there has been a departure of depth at the MFC and at this stage, as it sits right now, today, the 16th of October, we have landed one player...Braydon Preuss. Mahoney surely wasn't talking about him when he made comments last week. 

[jnrmac 18,913]

11 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

I know everything.

No, seriously, I'm just going by the fact that pretty much everything is out in the open these days.  Every deal done so far has been discussed prior to it happening, so I highly doubt we've got major things cooking outside of Steven May and KK, which is what I believe Mahoney was referring to.

I like the idea that there is some sneaky trade that is not out in the open. But I agree that player managers and list managers generally have loose lips around this time.....

And we have done trades such as the Tyson, Salem trade that were never touted openly. Mahoney has said we have a number of deals that might fall in to place but we need to deal with the Hogan issue first so you can never say never.. .My guess would be pick swaps if we can deal with the Hogan issue sensibly....

[dazzledavey36 48,583]

3 minutes ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

So you reckon Mahoney's big coup for the trade period was Preuss (A VFL ruckman) and KK (a bloke who has played little football in several seasons). If that is all that we were in to, then we are sitting on our hands. Seeing hawthorn once again top up their list with QUALITY and Geelong adding Gary Rohan and Luke Dalhaus, makes me concerned about sides who finished around us doing more than we are o improve their lists. I fear that many hear just think AFL success is a natural progression and that we have the list to succeed because we made it to a Prelim and next year we will be better. If you dont continually improve your list, you are treading water or going backwards.

What we have built thus far will hold us in good stead. However, there has been a departure of depth at the MFC and at this stage, as it sits right now, today, the 16th of October, we have landed one player...Braydon Preuss. Mahoney surely wasn't talking about him when he made comments last week. 

Lol Rohan is a rubbish footballer and Dahlhouse will coast for the rest of his career.

Geelong don't scare me one bit.

[Demonland 64,361]

Friendly warning to all. Stop the antagonizing, stop the baiting, stop the accusations. If you have an issue use the report feature. Now please can we go back to waiting until 8:25pm Wednesday for the trade to drop, followed by the Demonland Podcast featuring the Peter Jackson interview and Trade Wrap Up Talk with @Grapeviney & @Nasher.

[old55 21,203]

13 minutes ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

Thank you. Amazing when somebody actually follows a logical and linear argument on here. It was well known we had several targets, according to Mahoney. With 28 hours left, we have traded Tyson for Preuss. Lost Kent and gained nothing else. So what I was alluding to was what are these other dominos that we hoped would fall. We have been held up and they may never fall? 

Of course it's possible but it's not MFC's fault that the Hogan-May deal is holding things up - did you wants us to accept 11 and a 2nd rounder so we could do these "other deals"?

What other deals do you have in mind?  I know we don't leak but there hasn't been anything even remotely out there except the KK deal. Give me your list of other players you think we're not getting because this is held up.

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

1 minute ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Lol Rohan is a rubbish footballer and Dahlhouse will coast for the rest of his career.

Geelong don't scare me one bit.

Nor me, but I don't think they are rubbish, and if you are going on that logic, what excites you about KK? You sound like a poster who creamed his pants over Harley Balic last year

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

1 minute ago, Fifty-5 said:

Of course it's possible but it's not MFC's fault that the Hogan-May deal is holding things up - did you wants us to accept 11 and a 2nd rounder so we could do these "other deals"?

What other deals do you have in mind?  I know we don't leak but there hasn't been anything even remotely out there except the KK deal. Give me your list of other players you think we're not getting because this is held up.

11 and 2nd rounder is about the same as what we are getting now if the reports are true. We will get Pick 5 which goes to the Suns for May. So if we had the balls, we would have made the Suns deal May for Pick 11 and a sweetner, but we didn't. We thought we'd get more. If the reports are true, we get May and KK, who we could have had for a thrird-rounder a week ago. Geez we have really won on this. 

[deebug 1,754]

2 minutes ago, Demonland said:

Friendly warning to all. Stop the antagonizing, stop the baiting, stop the accusations. If you have an issue use the report feature. Now please can we go back to waiting until 8:25pm Wednesday for the trade to drop, followed by the Demonland Podcast featuring the Peter Jackson interview and Trade Wrap Up Talk with @Grapeviney & @Nasher.

I'm looking forward to the podcast?

[Wiseblood 24,636]

4 minutes ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

So you reckon Mahoney's big coup for the trade period was Preuss (A VFL ruckman) and KK (a bloke who has played little football in several seasons). If that is all that we were in to, then we are sitting on our hands. Seeing hawthorn once again top up their list with QUALITY and Geelong adding Gary Rohan and Luke Dalhaus, makes me concerned about sides who finished around us doing more than we are o improve their lists. I fear that many hear just think AFL success is a natural progression and that we have the list to succeed because we made it to a Prelim and next year we will be better. If you dont continually improve your list, you are treading water or going backwards.

What we have built thus far will hold us in good stead. However, there has been a departure of depth at the MFC and at this stage, as it sits right now, today, the 16th of October, we have landed one player...Braydon Preuss. Mahoney surely wasn't talking about him when he made comments last week. 

You forgot Steven May in there.

We don't need to make large changes to our list - we clearly identified three areas of improvement, which was more outside run, support for Gawn and another key back.  Unless the Hogan deal falls through, we will cover all three of those areas, and cover them well.  Why do we need to do anything else?  We were a game away from playing off in a Grand Final.  We don't need wholesale changes.

The Hawks, to this point, have added Scrimshaw.  Wow.  Scully is under a huge injury cloud and Wingard has been half decent since 2016.  Same goes for Geelong - Rohan is injury prone and average, while Dalhaus has been average since the Dogs winning the flag.  They might add a bit to their list, but it won't put them over the top.

I have faith in what we are doing and I'm stoked we are addressing what we, as supporters, saw as needs - more run, support for Max and another key defender.  Forget what the others are doing, focus on us, and if you do that then you'll see we are doing the right things again.

[old55 21,203]

1 minute ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

11 and 2nd rounder is about the same as what we are getting now if the reports are true. We will get Pick 5 which goes to the Suns for May. So if we had the balls, we would have made the Suns deal May for Pick 11 and a sweetner, but we didn't. We thought we'd get more. If the reports are true, we get May and KK, who we could have had for a thrird-rounder a week ago. Geez we have really won on this. 

I see it's apparently Rohan and Dahlhaus that we missed out on - OK resume normal transmission.

[Dr.D 1,771]

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

I wonder how many of those poster who don't rate May wanted to play Pedersen every week and were livid when Watts was put on the market ?

I'm guessing strong correlations.  ?

One of the best posts for a while. I think anyone who wanted to keep Watts should be banned from even commenting on this trade board. Just goes to show that some supporters are so biased and get so attached that they can't see the forest for the trees and overrate their own players. Watts was never going to succeed at afl level. 

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

Just now, Fifty-5 said:

I see it's apparently Rohan and Dahlhaus that we missed out on - OK resume normal transmission.

great deflection. Not what I have said at all. I could add Shiel, Gaff, Scully, Wingard....come on..you understand the point...there are players that are of more value than KK on the market and we have been hamstrung by the deal that has taken until the trade deadline to unfold for Hogan.

[dazzledavey36 48,583]

3 minutes ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

Nor me, but I don't think they are rubbish, and if you are going on that logic, what excites you about KK? You sound like a poster who creamed his pants over Harley Balic last year

No i didn't 'cream' myself over him at all. I was excited about his potential upside but also knew there were risk attachment. I had seen Balic play at under 18s level and he was such a class above the rest of his teammates.

KK is a highly talented individual and that even been shown at AFL (whereas Balic hasn't) he adds exactly what our side has been crying out put for in terms of outside pace and run. He could be the cream on an already baked cake.

Unlike you and some other NQR on here im willing to give Pruess and KK a chance, especially with the way we've developed our young players so well the past 4 years. Brendan McCartney and co will love working with Pruessy and KK and once they're in our system, then sky is the limit for both players.

[old55 21,203]

5 minutes ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

great deflection. Not what I have said at all. I could add Shiel, Gaff, Scully, Wingard....come on..you understand the point...there are players that are of more value than KK on the market and we have been hamstrung by the deal that has taken until the trade deadline to unfold for Hogan.

You seem to be persistently leaving May out of your posts - quite clearly he is our #1 target.

Look I think if we don't get the Hogan-May deal done you will have a valid point.  That's why I'm expecting it will happen.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Fifty-5

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

Just now, dazzledavey36 said:

No i didn't 'cream' myself over him at all. I was excited about his potential upside but also knew there were risk attachment. I had seen Balic play at under 18s level and he was such a class above the rest of his teammates.

KK is a highly talented individual and that even been shown at AFL (whereas Balic hasn't) he adds exactly what our side has been crying out put for in terms of outside pace and run. He could be the cream on an already baked cake.

Unlike you and some other NQR on here im willing to give Pruess and KK a chance, especially with the way we've developed our young players so well the past 4 years. Brendan McCartney and co will love working with Pruessy and KK and once they're in our system, then sky is the limit for both players.

So remind me, how many people have we taken off our list and then tell me who you reckon we are replacing them with?

[Wiseblood 24,636]

1 minute ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

So remind me, how many people have we taken off our list and then tell me who you reckon we are replacing them with?

Why can't we add some quality through the draft?  We've done super well with later picks in the past, so how do we know that Jason Taylor hasn't got some VFL/WAFL/SANFL etc players in his sights, or someone like Lockhart from Casey, who we are looking to draft to replace a Kent or a Tyson?  

At the moment, if we lose Kent, Tyson and Hogan, we will replace them with May, KK and Preuss, and then go to the draft with the picks we have.  I don't know why you would be worried about that.

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

1 minute ago, Fifty-5 said:

You seem to be persistently leaving May out of your posts - quite clearly he is our #1 target.

Yep and he will be a direct swap for Hogan. Who do you rate more? Who has more upside? In 5 years, who wins that deal?

 

We PUT Hogan out there and said you can take him, he is contracted, nothing but 2 first rounders. Freo called our bluff and we again pay overs for a bloke. Yes he will fill a need, but how many times have we been the club to yield in trade negotiations? This time we held the cards and still we lost the hand. That's my opinion of what has unfolded and I won't be changing it, unless miraculously tomorrow we land something else. 

[sue 8,402]

14 minutes ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

So you reckon Mahoney's big coup for the trade period was Preuss (A VFL ruckman) and KK (a bloke who has played little football in several seasons). If that is all that we were in to, then we are sitting on our hands. Seeing hawthorn once again top up their list with QUALITY and Geelong adding Gary Rohan and Luke Dalhaus, makes me concerned about sides who finished around us doing more than we are o improve their lists. I fear that many hear just think AFL success is a natural progression and that we have the list to succeed because we made it to a Prelim and next year we will be better. If you dont continually improve your list, you are treading water or going backwards.

What we have built thus far will hold us in good stead. However, there has been a departure of depth at the MFC and at this stage, as it sits right now, today, the 16th of October, we have landed one player...Braydon Preuss. Mahoney surely wasn't talking about him when he made comments last week. 

Club's with ageing players are more in need of improving their lists by trades and drafting than we are.  Surely we can expect improvement by way of our younger blokes.

[old55 21,203]

2 minutes ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

Yep and he will be a direct swap for Hogan. Who do you rate more? Who has more upside? In 5 years, who wins that deal?

We PUT Hogan out there and said you can take him, he is contracted, nothing but 2 first rounders. Freo called our bluff and we again pay overs for a bloke. Yes he will fill a need, but how many times have we been the club to yield in trade negotiations? This time we held the cards and still we lost the hand. That's my opinion of what has unfolded and I won't be changing it, unless miraculously tomorrow we land something else. 

I think you need to wait and see it play out before assuming it's a direct swap.

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

1 minute ago, Wiseblood said:

Why can't we add some quality through the draft?  We've done super well with later picks in the past, so how do we know that Jason Taylor hasn't got some VFL/WAFL/SANFL etc players in his sights, or someone like Lockhart from Casey, who we are looking to draft to replace a Kent or a Tyson?  

At the moment, if we lose Kent, Tyson and Hogan, we will replace them with May, KK and Preuss, and then go to the draft with the picks we have.  I don't know why you would be worried about that.

But I thought we were in the window? An 18 year old second rounder going to make an impact next year you reckon? Lockhart could be the next Keilty or could be the next Fritsch. There is no point arguing, everyone rates players and decisions differently. I think we've been dudded. 

[dazzledavey36 48,583]

3 minutes ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

So remind me, how many people have we taken off our list and then tell me who you reckon we are replacing them with?

No, you can work out the numbers yourself. Its not that difficult.

The players we've taken off our list are players the coaches deemed not capable of carrying this club forward. Again, pretty simple..

Who they replace them with? I dont know? Do you? But i tell you what, i bet Jason Taylor and Todd Viney have a list of players name that they'd like to bring into the club.. you know, as all clubs do? They wont bring them all in but they'll have a crack.

I'll back Todd Viney and Jason Taylors track record over a few simpletons on here who think we're sitting on our hands doing [censored] all.

[Wiseblood 24,636]

Just now, Leoncelli_36 said:

But I thought we were in the window? An 18 year old second rounder going to make an impact next year you reckon? Lockhart could be the next Keilty or could be the next Fritsch. There is no point arguing, everyone rates players and decisions differently. I think we've been dudded. 

The last two seasons we have drafted Hannan and Fritsch, two guys who have come in and been best 22 players.  Taylor knows what he's doing.  You can say we've been dudded, I'll go with the fact that we've addressed our needs and that our scouting and recruitment team are one of the best in the business.