POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 17

[Jaded No More 57,744]

Jones looks like he’s carrying an injury. He’s never been fast, but the last few weeks it’s like he’s running in wet cement. I hope he’s injured and it’s not simply a matter of age catching up to him. 

Oliver is a superb footballer. He’s honestly a genius. His kicking is so good, I’m almost sad when he handballs now. 

Gus and Gawn did a superb job in the absence of Viney and I love what Fritsch brings to the side. I thought Salem was good too. 

Frost is good as long as he isn’t touching the ball. He has definitely been told to just shut down his man and that’s it. The one burst he had in the last quarter was great... until he opted to kick the footy. If he continues to do the simple defensive stuff well, he will be fine. But needs to stick to being a defender, coz his attacking play is a major liability. Then again Hibbo can’t hit a target either! 

Hope Hunty gets back into some form post injury. 

[picket fence 15,079]

2 hours ago, Whispering_Jack said:

Well that was an unusual game and one that might puzzle those analysts who figure they’ve got our game worked out.

Statistically, we had less disposals, less contested possessions, less clearances, less tackles and less inside 50s. These are areas where, during this season, we are usually in front of our opposition and yet today, we won by 50 points.

Anyone have an explanation?

Poltergiest Differentials...…… There ya go!!

[Chook 14,430]

1 hour ago, dees189227 said:

So i missed the 2nd half. But read maxy dominated. So how good was he?

So good the AFL just decided to hand him the Brownlow and Melbourne the premiership on the spot. Season 2018 has been called off.

[Demon Dynasty 15,268]

57 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

There is a lot to be pleased with about today's performance.

At half time Macrae and Hunter were destroying us in the middle, we were being beaten in CPs and clearances and we couldn't get scoring chains going from anywhere. A couple of small positional changes in the third quarter were critical (Harmes to Macrae, Jones out onto a wing and Lewis to half-back, with a deeper FF starting at the bounce), and we turned the game on its head.

Interestingly, today we were much more efficient going inside 50 - scoring from 56% of our inside 50s compared to last week's 47%. And the Dogs got a lot of inside 50s against, but didn't score all the time (33% compared to Fremantle's 46% last week). These are complete reversals of the standard 2018 MFC. Much more efficient going inside 50 (this is in part due to the Dogs' defence being poor), and more importantly, much tighter in defence.

Gawn, Oliver and Brayshaw were all stunning and their third quarter propelled us. Also thought Salem was terrific. Fritsch is a gem, Spargo's got a bright future, and Garlett adds something that our forward line was definitely missing during the three losses.

I thought Lewis was good today. His kicking is getting worse unfortunately, but I thought his courage and running were much better today. However I just don't see what Vince adds to the side at all. Also thought Jones had a shocker, which didn't help our clearance numbers. 

Titan good summary.  Vince is a worry but who replaces him who is significantly better?  Not being smart i just can't see who offers something more at this point.  Similar maybe but not significantly better to justify a replacement.

Jones appeared to be moved to a wing for much of the 2nd half so his clearance numbers would naturally have been off somewhat but probably was moved due to not getting enough clearances!  How's that for spin!  But yes that was probably his worst game for the year.  Worrying times.  Carrying an injury maybe?  Looked relieved when the siren blew.

Just on some of the efficiency stats i agree we were more efficient but....

We had roughly the same number of scoring shots for each entry inside 50 as we did last week and so did the Doggies (when compared to the Dockers).  A marginal difference but not significant.

We may not have been any better defensively just much more accurate at splitting the middle this time around vs against the Dockers (a greasier Darwin explains it partially but not totally IMO).  Out pressure might have resulted in less accuracy (compared to the Dockers) but the Doggies also missed a few simple shots i thought.

The numbers i'm seeing, which is some cases differ significantly to yours (courtesy of Footywire) ...

% inside 50s Score

Demons 46.2  vs Dockers 32.1

Demons 48.1  vs Bulldogs 29.8

% inside 50s Goal

Demons 16.7  vs Dockers 25.0

Demons 34.6  vs Bulldogs 17.5

Edited July 14, 2018 by Rusty Nails

[DeeZee 6,719]

Thought Oliver was absolutely stunning by foot today

[titan_uranus 22,237]

19 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

Titan good summary.  Vince is a worry but who replaces him who is significantly better?  Not being smart i just can't see who offers something more at this point.  Similar maybe but not significantly better to justify a replacement.

Jones appeared to be moved to a wing for much of the 2nd half so his clearance numbers would naturally have been off somewhat but probably was moved due to not getting enough clearances!  How's that for spin!  But yes that was probably his worst game for the year.  Worrying times.  Carrying an injury maybe?  Looked relieved when the siren blew.

Just on some of the efficiency stats i agree we were more efficient but....

We had roughly the same number of scoring shots for each entry inside 50 as we did last week and so did the Doggies (when compared to the Dockers).  A marginal difference but not significant.

We may not have been any better defensively just much more accurate at splitting the middle this time around vs against the Dockers (a greasier Darwin explains it partially but not totally IMO).  Out pressure might have resulted in less accuracy (compared to the Dockers) but the Doggies also missed a few simple shots i thought.

The numbers i'm seeing, which is some cases differ significantly to yours (courtesy of Footywire) ...

% inside 50s Score

Demons 46.2  vs Dockers 32.1

Demons 48.1  vs Bulldogs 29.8

% inside 50s Goal

Demons 16.7  vs Dockers 25.0

Demons 34.6  vs Bulldogs 17.5

Ah, Footywire doesn't include rushed behinds, so it thinks we had 25 scoring shots whereas the Footy Live app says we had 29 scoring shots.

It certainly felt like, to me, we were more efficient going inside than we were against Fremantle (or St Kilda or Port).

As to Vince, agreed, there isn't necessarily an obvious replacement, but I just don't think Vince is adding much at all.

As to Jones, he wasn't really adding much to our clearance game in the first half which I'm sure is part of the reason he was the one squeezed out to get Harmes in there to tag Macrae. He may well be carrying an injury but it could just be a form slump. 

[Binmans PA 25,923]

That was potentially the most dominant game Max has played. He was brilliant (aside from a few of those kicks - please don't kick it - you can't), his tap work was sublime, as was his marking around the ground. 

After a first half where he was found defensively wanting, Gus really lifted in the second half and was instrumental in that powerful 10 minute blast that changed the game. Not only did he exhibit much better two way running, he won a staggering number of clearances in the second half. I'd have to look at the numbers, but if Macrae had a really good first half, Gus had a stunning second half. Wonderful to see the young fella getting great reward. His outside/inside work and link up with Clarry is really becoming damaging.

This brings me to Clarry, who today became my favourite demon of all time.  I've just never seen a Melbourne player as good as him nor as consistent. This guy is the stuff of footballing dreams. He is the absolute complete package. When we start to see that contested marking, he will become unstoppable. He's also close to untaggable if he can become more damaging up forward. The first A+ footballer at the MFC in 30+ years. About time!

I was also a massive fan of our centre stoppage set ups today. The Bulldogs are a team who are really well coached and have troubled us in the middle, in the recent past. But today we looked dynamic and the link up play between Gawn, Gus, Clarry and Petracca was extremely exciting. If those guys are clicking against decent midfield opposition (say what you like about the rest of the Bulldogs team), then we may just have turned a corner with our midfield. 

The biggest change to our midfield is the defensive transition running, which was for much of the game, far better than it has been in the past. However, there were moments, such as one of Wallis' goals where our defensive set up was all over the joint. We had our entire defence sitting 10-15 metres out from goal and there were 3 or 4 Bulldogs waiting by themselves 40-50 metres out. We miss Lever's organisation and I have question marks over Plapp's capabilities as defensive line coach, but our mids worked really hard to push back and cover space today.

He doesn't get massive numbers, but Charlie Spargo is a Caleb Daniel clone. He's a brilliant decision maker, hard tackler and neat kick. Fast becoming one of my favourites too. Jason Taylor's a genius as far as I'm concerned, particularly, when you put Spargo alongside Fritsch, who should play on a wing or off half back for as long as possible. He's silk and another elite disposer, alongside Salem back there.

Unfortunately, Jones is just about at the end though. He laid one excellent tackle that led to a goal, but other than that, I thought he was embarrassing. Vince was his usual self too. While Hannan showed why he was only playing due to a late injury to Viney.

I'm glad we got this one in the bag though and a percentage boost of 3% made it even sweeter. Pity it wasn't more, but I'll take it.

Next week is the season. Without Viney's intensity around the contests, everyone else has to be up and about. If Max, Clarry, Gus, Petracca, Hogan and McDonald have good games, it'll go a long way to ensuring we win.

Edited July 14, 2018 by A F

[deanox 8,553]

On replacing aging senior players:

Interesting that only 9 of 22 were above 25 years of age today, and only 6 over 27.

Vince and Lewis are nearly done and Jones probably isn't far (another 2 seasons?), but Garlett, Hibbard and Jetta are 28 so should have 3-4 years left, especially given all have had breaks.

The main problem is that 4 of those players are in our back 6. We really need Hunt to come on (and keep him), plus unearth another couple for back there. 

[What 18,810]

Brayshaw now averaging 27.1 possessions a  game.  Awesome player.

Hes quick too, which never really gets mentioned.  

[rpfc 27,406]

Spargo and Garlett are actual small forwards and need to stay in that forward line. Putting ‘medium tall’ forwards in there like Hannan, ANB, Harmes et al is what I think leads to our problems with Hogan and McDonald having space. More efficient today...

The stats didn’t like us but we were the better team. When Jones said - the better team won in adelaide against Port - this is what he means. Just because we get so much footy forward doesn’t mean we get good delivery. Just because we win contested footy doesn’t mean it is fait accompli that we turn that into clean possession in space.

We can beat anyone but we are vulnerable to anyone. 

6 weeks of anxiety coming up...

[Binmans PA 25,923]

28 minutes ago, Petraccattack said:

Brayshaw now averaging 27.1 possessions a  game.  Awesome player.

Hes quick too, which never really gets mentioned.  

The attribute that really makes Gus stand out and makes him hard to play against is his dual-sidedness. If you look around the competition at the best midfielders, only Dangerfield, Bontempelli, Sidebottom and at a pinch Cotchin and Ward, can kick well and consistently on their opposite sides. Given his ball-winning-ability, that skill puts him in pretty unique company. 

[Deestar9 1,402]

2 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

One of the worst games in terms of turnovers i've seen.  I just can't understand how Goody allows Frosty to do anything when he gets the ball other than run and handball to the nearest player running from behind or alongside or alternatively just kick long to a contest.  The other issue is his kicking, even when trying to kick to a man (or contest), he rarely manages to find one of our own or kick to our advantage.

Great closing speed, great at spoiling and occasional chop outs but at the moment he is almost an asset to the opposition once he gets ball in hand.

Coaches need to do some serious work in this area with team mates running around near him in support like Hibb and Nev if he remains in the squad.

Vince was ok but still only running on 2 cylinders IMO.  Similar to Hannan.

Gerard Healy made a very astute comment re Frosty at the Freo v dees game.  “You work with what you got” and that says it all.... Frosty isn’t a Lever.....no-one is...Hannan isn’t a Viney etc .....however they are what they are ....& we work with what we have.....I can’t think of anyone in the 2’s that can do any better .....maybe Vanders when fit .....so let’s not expect Lever & Viney like efforts...they give their all .....just get around them .... let’s echo our esteemed co-captain Jones who did a great effort on “On the Couch” who said precisely that.....no player goes out on a ground and doesn’t give 100% ....we are so critical after such a great win !!

[Demon Dynasty 15,268]

34 minutes ago, Deestar9 said:

Gerard Healy made a very astute comment re Frosty at the Freo v dees game.  “You work with what you got” and that says it all.... Frosty isn’t a Lever.....no-one is...Hannan isn’t a Viney etc .....however they are what they are ....& we work with what we have.....I can’t think of anyone in the 2’s that can do any better .....maybe Vanders when fit .....so let’s not expect Lever & Viney like efforts...they give their all .....just get around them .... let’s echo our esteemed co-captain Jones who did a great effort on “On the Couch” who said precisely that.....no player goes out on a ground and doesn’t give 100% ....we are so critical after such a great win !!

The effort was there as was the results in terms of spoiling and getting to the contests as already mentioned.  No question on the effort or giving 100% at all deestar.

But also no harm being critical where it's warranted, especially against a weaker opponent.  The issue is with what he does with it when he gets the ball.  Not his defensive side.  So there is a positive aspect highlighted in my post which you may have missed.

As mentioned his disposal needs working on and is as much a coach as a player issue.  The challenge to improve this side of his game lays with both Coach/s, the player as well as others in the backline who might be required/asked to assist.

Edited July 14, 2018 by Rusty Nails

[Constant Mongrel 571]

3 hours ago, Undeeterred said:

Name them. I genuinely didn't see many. Hannan was quiet. Who else?

hibberd. garlett. jkh. vince. jones.

[kev martin 9,031]

Is Dom Done, given he could have been the obvious in to replace Viney.

Well done Harmes, closed McCrea down.

Gee some of our kicking to leads in the first half was bad. Spargo saw it flying over his head a few times when on a lead in the 50. He is finding meters off his opponent.

Jesse is a confidence player. Couldn’t stick it till a free kick brought him into the game. Always attracts numerous opposition players to him.

Good to see our crumbers come into the game in the second half.

Max found himself isolated a few times. He should always have a crumber at his feet.

Hibbs and Jetts not up to their usual standards of late.

Oscar has a great fist and works closely off the shoulder of his opponent.

Jordans turnovers, has to be able to see opposition players not just our own. 

Oliver's intentional plays often look like errors. Amazing footy brain, so creative. Very well rounded footballer, hard to stop.

Angus's side steps and run through traffic, great.

Max so consistently good. Doing it all over the field. Sticking marks as well. I thought Jesse was going to have the great hands.

Fritsch thinks it through well, always does the right thing.

Can't wait to see Petracca dominate, I want him to take the next step.

I wonder if Bernie, Hannan and JKH did enough.

Is Jones Ok, his kicking was usually his strength, it has been off in a few games this year.

 

Love it when Melbourne control the ball and the opponents can't get a touch. Beautiful third quarter.

Good coaching, able to change style throughout the game, good adjustments. 

Edited July 14, 2018 by kevin martin

[bing181 8,151]

5 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

I just don't see what Vince adds to the side at all

You do when you take him out ... which is one of the reasons so many were wanting him back in when Petty/J Smith went out.

Though what Vince adds isn't really the question. It's what the bloke he played on adds, and from what I can see, it's generally not much. Bernie still knows how to shut someone down.

[FireInTheBennelly 4,024]

5 hours ago, DaveyJones'sLocker said:

What a load of [censored] the start was, harmes gets ridden in to the ground straight in the back , yet gets pinged for delieberate Salem applies the extract same tackle later in the game got done for in the back. I also seem to remember salem getting done twice in the saints game for the same thing. This soft in the back rule is driving me crazy I swear we seem to get pinged 2-3 times a game when it should be holding the ball.

You missed Hunter's hands in the back mark and goal against JKH?

[MT64 1,084]

12 hours ago, Demonland said:

God I feel cold just looking at this picture from "Arctic Park".

[Nasher 33,047]

9 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

One of the worst games in terms of turnovers i've seen.  I just can't understand how Goody allows Frosty to do anything when he gets the ball other than run and handball to the nearest player running from behind or alongside or alternatively just kick long to a contest.  The other issue is his kicking, even when trying to kick to a man (or contest), he rarely manages to find one of our own or kick to our advantage.

Great closing speed, great at spoiling and occasional chop outs but at the moment he is almost an asset to the opposition once he gets ball in hand.

Coaches need to do some serious work in this area with team mates running around near him in support like Hibb and Nev if he remains in the squad.

Vince was ok but still only running on 2 cylinders IMO.  Similar to Hannan.

No modern coach is going to tell a player he’s not allowed to try and find a player by foot. He has to be allowed to participate in the ball movement the team is expecting to occur. I don’t think a message of “we don’t trust you to kick it” is the way of getting the best out of a player, nor does it help the rest of the side much if they have to change how they lead/present if they know it’s Frost who has it.

It’s these turnovers that made a few of us reluctant to pick Frost in the first place. However I also accept the need to have a tall to support OMac, and Frost has other attributes no others have, like his impressive closing speed and strength. To that end, I think while he is needed in the side, we have to just accept the occasional facepalm moment with the ball as the price to pay for the attributes he does bring. He’s an imperfect player, that’s why he doesn’t play every week.

[Dee Zephyr 17,365]

8 hours ago, DeeZee said:

Thought Oliver was absolutely stunning by foot today

The kick to spot ANB for a set shot early in the third was pure footy smarts. Most other players attempting that kick would’ve had their kick smothered.

He deliberately kept the ball low avoiding two sets of Bulldog arms. Watching the replay last night I wasn’t surprised the commentators didn’t pick up on it. 

[beelzebub 22,225]

8 hours ago, Deestar9 said:

.. let’s echo our esteemed co-captain Jones who did a great effort on “On the Couch” who said precisely that.....no player goes out on a ground and doesn’t give 100% ...

If I may pick up on this ...your quote. ( Not a go at you )

This has to be either Cliche Masterclass.....or Naivete extraordinaire !!

Jones might like to think everyone gives 100% but it's plainly not the case. Some do put in more...some do try more. That just is.

There may be the intention to give all....not always the result.

It's called the human condition.

Edited July 14, 2018 by beelzebub

[Deestroy All 14,261]

11 hours ago, Undeeterred said:

People like you bore the crap out of me.

You're team has just won by 50 points. Whinge when we lose, not when we win.

Just freaking enjoy yourself. Who the hell comes on the forum 10 minutes after a solid win and complains that the oppo were rubbish?

I’m way over getting excited that we finally managed a win on our home ground, against hopeless opposition with a habit of throwing up the white flag.  

I bought into the 6 game win streak, enjoyed it, I said nah we’ll be right it doesn’t mean anything that we haven’t beaten anyone of note. 

Then we [censored] the bed against teams in the 8. 

The signs were still there yesterday that we haven’t fixed anything. Gawn makes us look better than we are, good defences will mop up all day with our mindless inside 50s and we get scored against too easily. 

I was happy with the win, but I’m frustrated. Beat a decent side and I won’t be. 

You go ahead and pop your cork watching us beat up the bottom 6. 

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,577]

Just in case anyone needed any further affirmation of the shallow duplicitous nature of some media comentators.  Go back two weeks and the MFC was being slandered and seriously questioned by many (Mark Maclure recons we won't make finals).  After a couple of reasonable performances against teams in the bottom half of the ladder and David King produces this gem:

" David King told Fox Footy that they have the ability to win the flag.

“They can go all the way. There’s no doubting that. This midfield is simply awesome.” King said."

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/live-afl-round-17-melbourne-v-western-bulldogs/news-story/


I'm probably more bullish about our prospects than many on this forum, but I wouldn't be making big statements like this until we have beaten a few more teams around/above us like Geelong, Sydney and West Coast. 

Not that I have ever thought that much of Kingy, but the way some of these comentators like him flip flop and change their opinions on teams on an almost weekly basis leaves them with near zero credibility.  What appears to give Kingy some credibility is the game analysis he provides, but I really do wonder how much of that is him just presenting the work of other back room analysts.

[loges 6,003]

13 hours ago, forever demons said:

against a [censored] weak bunch of rabble

A team that beat the cats 2 weeks ago?

[Demon Dynasty 15,268]

2 hours ago, Nasher said:

No modern coach is going to tell a player he’s not allowed to try and find a player by foot. He has to be allowed to participate in the ball movement the team is expecting to occur. I don’t think a message of “we don’t trust you to kick it” is the way of getting the best out of a player, nor does it help the rest of the side much if they have to change how they lead/present if they know it’s Frost who has it.

It’s these turnovers that made a few of us reluctant to pick Frost in the first place. However I also accept the need to have a tall to support OMac, and Frost has other attributes no others have, like his impressive closing speed and strength. To that end, I think while he is needed in the side, we have to just accept the occasional facepalm moment with the ball as the price to pay for the attributes he does bring. He’s an imperfect player, that’s why he doesn’t play every week.

Didn't say not kick at all Nash.  Just handball off as first option wherever possible or up the line as next best option.  Don't try and squeeze it to any targets as he just rarely hits.  Pretty simple stuff....just play to your strengths and improve likely outcome in our favour more often.

I agree on other closing speed, spoiling, height issues.  I was pushing for Frosty as the next best 'Intercept' option once Lever went down, while many here preferred Joel, months ago on multiple posts.  Amazing how ppl conveniently miss that part and target you on any constructive (warranted) criticism.  Not surprising coming from you though Nasher.  Very quick to jump.