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Post Match Discussion - Round 12

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1 minute ago, A F said:

 

Wow. There's some stuff I agree with and then there's this... the bloke was second for the Coleman coming into this game, playing midfield and forward. He's a star. He had a down day, but he'll bounce back.

You're suggesting Viney and Jones are too slow for the middle, but your replacement is Tyson?

I think we might go Jeffy and Hunt next, as we need some outside run, but I wouldn't say Viney is slow. And given Port's slowish midfield, we might reset with the same midfield and not go Jeffy or Hunt at all.

Rest is needed to reassess and then we go again in Port.

There's value in Hogan's game but it's also a worry just how glaring his weaknesses are. Provides little pressure, is a poor field kick, can't run and break lines, can't clunk a grab in a pack or even one on one without the sit. Lots of positives from him so far this year and I understand why the club have sung his praises but his stats overvalue his influence. Beating up on bad sides when it's coming in easy but apart from the North game where he was everywhere he's let us down against good teams.

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1 hour ago, Petraccattack said:

Shout out to Tom McDonald who has now kicked an amazing 25 goals in  just 7 games.

Too bad he missed the first 5 games, he would be on track to kick 70+ and win the Coleman.

He now leads the league in goals per game.

I'm glad you changed your name back, HH... :P

And agreed. What a forward gun he has turned into. If he keeps up this pace, he'll still win the Coleman.

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Where has the old Viney mean dog gone?

Oliver needs some help .

Couldnt even dream of beating Collingwoods midfield , with Viney , Petracca and Brayshaw having so little of it.

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Posted (edited)

In hindsight Frost  may have been a better option than J Smith. His pace may have been handy and more useful to get a second tall spoiler onto Cox when required. 

Edited by america de cali
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4 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

There's value in Hogan's game but it's also a worry just how glaring his weaknesses are. Provides little pressure, is a poor field kick, can't run and break lines, can't clunk a grab in a pack or even one on one without the sit. Lots of positives from him so far this year and I understand why the club have sung his praises but his stats overvalue his influence. Beating up on bad sides when it's coming in easy but apart from the North game where he was everywhere he's let us down against good teams.

The frustrating thing is his contested marking was what shone through in year one. As good as he is playing, it is all based on working over his opponent, but id love to still see some of those big contested marks. Like TMac.

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4 minutes ago, A F said:

Backline fell apart because our midfield and half forward line fell apart. I thought the defenders battled relatively well. Joel Smith struggled in the first half, but grew into the game. Great spoil in the last. His spoil and then follow up tackle early on was good too.

The around the ground clearances were worse. 16-27! You don't win games of footy with our attacking press system, when you lose the clearances that badly.

 

Wow. There's some stuff I agree with and then there's this... the bloke was second for the Coleman coming into this game, playing midfield and forward. He's a star. He had a down day, but he'll bounce back.

You're suggesting Viney and Jones are too slow for the middle, but your replacement is Tyson?

I think we might go Jeffy and Hunt next, as we need some outside run, but I wouldn't say Viney is slow. And given Port's slowish midfield, we might reset with the same midfield and not go Jeffy or Hunt at all.

Rest is needed to reassess and then we go again in Port.

Just threw it out there in my emotional state. At his best he’s great, but here we have a clutch game playing for second spot and he wants to stand in the middle of the MCG and argue with Melksham. ( In fairness I don’t know what Melksham said but you just don’t do that) I believe he had 1 kick to half time or something like that. He didn’t show up when we desperately needed him and it’s not the first time it’s happened. Just pisses me right off. We were playing for decent stakes today. Re Tyson his form in the reserves simply warrants a recall. 

 

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51 minutes ago, dimmy said:

Firstly we have won 6 on a trot,so it only takes one loss and we are trading, dropping people everywhere.

We lost to a side who played out of their skins.

  • Started in the middle where we did not get good clearance. (Had an inkling after Footscray). Sometimes I reckon "the Lab"on Fox talks a lot of  @#$%%, but tonight it was obvious when shown , so I presume our Brains Trust will use it in review or change some structure to over come that. That took Angus and Nibblers influence out of the game a bit. It also enabled Colling wood to get the ball into their areas with superior numbers.
  •  

What did that show? Really interested. I thought the signs were there last week against the doggies too

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9 minutes ago, Gorgoroth said:

We have 10 more games to win 5+ and make finals.

Goodwin and co have two weeks to come up with another clearance plan as the bullies and pies have slaughtered us and worked out what we were doing.

Also a rocket needs to be fired up the leaders. When games are not going our way or their own personal way they revert back to little give and gets. It’s poor. And ffs cane some one get Viney better boots, he fell over that many times today I thought he was Lewis.

Had 1leader today and it was not any of our 2 captains or 2 vcs. Twas Tmac was true red and blue.

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20 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Lewis? 33 disposals (most of any player on the field), 9 marks (equal most of any player on the field) and 8 rebound 50's (also highest of any player on the field) ... that Lewis?

@bing181 Yeah he played well but Collingwood seriously exploited his lack of pace by dragging him deep and his kicking from HB is much better than from deep. 

20 minutes ago, Demonised said:

Grundy constantly grabbed, manhandled and dragged Max down, and none of the umpires were fussed by it.

@Demonised Agreed, this set up their win by negating our strength. Gawn got the wrong end of the umpiring stick today and it cost us. 

20 minutes ago, olisik said:

Seems we struggle on the wide MCG when fast teams spread and we cannot keep up. Etihad works for us because it is in tight and our contested ball is enough as there is not much space to spread. Without being able to win on the MCG we will fail in finals

@olisik Agree 100%. We need to adapt our game to this quickly. Now that we have had 6 weeks of successfully implementing our preferred game style, we can be sure that losing today requires actual tactical changes, and isn't just poor implementation. 

10 minutes ago, Clintosaurus said:

It was almost like no one at the club thought Collingwood might try and stop us playing like we did the did the last 6 weeks.

@Clintosaurus I think we would have been deliberately testing our prefered, successfully implemented game plan and trying to win our way. 

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1 minute ago, america de cali said:

In hindsight Frost  may have been a better option than J Smith. His pace may have been handy and more useful to get a second tall spoiler onto Cox when required. 

Frost was so good at Casey on the weekend he was moved forward to get out of Petty's and Keilty's way. Frost would not have helped today. Mason Cox had a day out although would have thought playing in front of him may have been a shot at some point.  

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15 minutes ago, Stormy Dee said:

He was useless

Rediculous comment champ. As I am sure you were. 

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Posted (edited)

Good luck winning any match when you lose clearances by nearly 20 and they get it inside 50 twenty one times more also.

We lost the clearance count big time last week as well.  As a one off and you correct it the following week all good.  Two weeks in a row....we have a problem that needs looking into prior to moving on to the next game otherwise we'll lose that one as well.

The game was won and lost there as well as our inability to enforce any sort of press or cause a few turnovers in our forward 50 (non existent forward 50 pressure / inability to play close checking accountable football allowing our opp to slice their way through us like witches hats!).

They waltzed through the middle which we failed to cover (inside) very similar to the Hawks match and we also got beaten in too many one on ones as well as other times when we outnumbered them in a number of disputed contests.

The sky isn't falling but unless corrected we are going to always struggle against better rated teams.  We have lost 3 out of 4 against rated teams now.  Not a good sign.  Need to re group and fix some outstanding issues before heading to Adelaide if we're to have any chance there.

Edited by Rusty Nails
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1 minute ago, Forest Demon said:

The frustrating thing is his contested marking was what shone through in year one. As good as he is playing, it is all based on working over his opponent, but id love to still see some of those big contested marks. Like TMac.

How often do we see him on a hard lead up at the footy at genuine CHF? That's what he did so well in year 1/2.

Now it's all over the top tic tac toe stuff. A lot of it is game plan and modern footy stuff but there's still room to get a one on one forward of the ball and kick to them. Tommy makes it happen by timing his leads. Against North as the sole tall forward Hogan was coming up the ground and winning contests, we weren't getting that today, every long kick was to a big pack (or to Collingwood players). 

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1 hour ago, ProDee said:

They were far better organised around the outside of the contest and stoppages.

We have 11 weeks to fix it.

Where do we find pace though?

Our midfield is good but very one dimensional. Good fast hands. Can get a clearance. Can gut run. Slow as the day is long. 

Every time we play teams who pressure us and have good outside pace (Richmond, Hawks), we get pantsed. 

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Posted (edited)

Yes, it was an ordinary performance but fair dinkum, some people on here have no idea. 

FWIW and IMO, Smith and Spargo did OK. I also read we should trade Hogan?  FCS get  real! The bloke had a quietish day. Ben Brown didn’t snag a goal over the weekend and there is no talk of him being flicked!

Collingwood cannot play much better and we really could not have played much worse.  We have played some brilliant football in recent weeks but today looked really tired and beaten by quarter time. It happens. We had a bad day. Move on.

I am very confident that we will re-group over the break and come back. Some times things fall apart so better things can fall into place. Go Dees.

Edited by ProperDee
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1 hour ago, Return to Glory said:

I rarely offer wisdom on such matters but if I can offer some subtle advice. Divorce him. Divorce him right now.

Hopefully that helps.

Thanks for that. Makes me feel better. He’s a pretty good guy most of the time but his choice is football teams is not ideal. He won’t be seeing the nice side of me any time soon.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, deanox said:

@bing181 

@Demonised Agreed, this set up their win by negating our strength. Gawn got the wrong end of the umpiring stick today and it cost us. 

@olisik 

@Clintosaurus

Has anyone explained what those ruck frees were about? I was at the game and it had me flummoxed. At times there was no free kick there, other times I thought Max was infringed but it always went to Grundy. Two monsters manhandling each other yet 4 times it was Max that erred? Bullshyte I say and that set them up early. 

Edited by Earl Hood
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Meh, honestly not concerned with the performance. We'd been up for 6 weeks and I had an inkling this performance on the cards. 

Gotta take your hat's off to the pies they were simply the better side on the day. I have no doubt we will be better placed come round 23. Bucks out coached Goodwin today, was like we had planned to just focus on our game & keep on doing what we have been(which is fair enough) and Bucks planned how to stop & beat us and that's exactly what they did. Beat us at our own game... We forget Goodwins in game 34 of his coaching career, when your the inform side of the comp, sides are going to come at you & try to take you strengths away from you and put more time into you. 

We'll be right, can't win them all. A week off to regroup & head to Adelaide on a Friday night, big stage again. Already reckon we get the job done.

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2 minutes ago, Earl Hood said:

Has anyone explained what those ruck frees were about? I was at the game and it had me flummoxed. At times there was no free kick there, other times I thought Max was infringed but it always went to Grundy. Two monsters manhandling each other yet 4 times it was Max that erred? Bullshyte I say and that set them up early. 

Agree 100%. You could see the frustration in Max as well. 

A number of times Grundy initiated holding of Max's jumper but the holding free would go against Max. No idea why. 

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HINDSIGHT

Pedersen selection just wrong,as was Smith. Needed Hunt and dare I say it frost for some pace in the back half. We got used to winning and found ourselves too far forward again much like the Richmond game.  We’re a good side but need to beat Port

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, jumbo returns said:

The ball should never have landed in Cox's hands so easily

Midfield was hammered

Backline just too small and mids let it in  faster  than pretty girls by bouncers at nightclubs. Spargo was wierd ..... On fire in the 2nd and 1 touch thereafter.  Dunny owned Jesse like the last time  we met. For a team of 9 wins last year that stopped our finals.....I thought we would have an axe to grind. Im cocerned where our 5 wins will come from. No upsets and a win against gws or syd will do it given we have crows cats and wc on their home ground. Only one upset for us will leave us with 12 the same ol samo. Maybe our % will save us. Why have pies improved more than us?

Im concerned about players like vince lewis and jones whose age is starting to catch them. Are we preparing to replace them to keep improving?

Was so glad to see Pedo back but like jkh he cannot for some wierd reason translate casey form in the big time.

When will Jv play like he used to? While I was a bit harsh on trac earlier tonite..... he is in a slump.

Why did milkshake anb and gus play so bad after 3 weeks of stellar form?

Hate to admit it but the media was right about us beating lower teams. Just didnt want to hear it. 

Edited by leave it to deever

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1 hour ago, Nasher said:

Alternative theory: we’re not overawed and it had nothing to do with the occasion, and was just down to footballing less good than Collingwood today.

It may well have come down to the fact we were a game out from the bye and exhausted.

Also, can we have that conversation about Bernie Vince again mate? If not, very soon.

1 hour ago, Watts Jurrah Dunn? said:

A small part of me is pleased we got a touch up going into the bye. We can give the Premiership and 'perfect list' stuff a rest for a couple of weeks and work our backsides off rather than drink our own bath water.

Theres no doubt the fixture has flattered us and we've got a few glaring holes to fill.

Not only do we desperately need a run-all-day wingman like Gaff but we desperately need midfielders with some pace. We love them, but get it outside of Oliver, Viney, Jones, Brayshaw etc and it's Christmas if you're a mid with some acceleration like Treloar, De Goey and Adams found today. We need a Shuey/Shiel type. Heck bring Aaron Hall in on the cheap. I hope Goodwin's obsession with contest doesn't see us miss a pacey outside type, who by their very nature are not strong at contested ball. The cake is built now and it's time to add some run and class.

With Lewis, Vince, Jetta and even Hibberd all closer to the end than than the beginning, and Wagner not exactly a dasher, we also need a few half back flankers that can run and kick.

Hopefully by the end of the season Hunt and Baker can provide a bit of dash. 

It's an interesting post this, because it is thought provoking to look at our list build. When we're flying, it's almost as if there are no weaknesses, but when we lose, our weaknesses are there for all to see. 

Teams beating us have done it off the back of pace. You think of Hawthorn and Richmond's zippy forwardlines and then Collingwood sit alongside them, with pace off half back and pace in their forward half. 

I think our list management are under no illusions as to the cake being cooked, but waiting for the icing. You can only do so much in one trade period.

We've clearly targeted Gaff for this off season and in the meantime, recruited Baker (aptly named for your cake analogy) to see if he can develop over the course of 2018 and offer this outside run we lack. I'm sure we hoped Hunt would too. Let's hope he still does this year.

I think we'll get there with list balance. Add a Gaff next year and another zippy midfield FA in the coming 2-3 years and we look very good.

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I think Collingwood have a premiership quality midfield.

They can't expect Mason "Kent Kingsley" Cox to kick five every week but that midfield is as good as any I have seen for a long time.

We needed to at least break even in the middle, but losing the clearances 26 to 45 was where the game was lost.

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2 minutes ago, Roost It said:

HINDSIGHT

Pedersen selection just wrong,as was Smith. Needed Hunt and dare I say it frost for some pace in the back half. We got used to winning and found ourselves too far forward again much like the Richmond game.  We’re a good side but need to beat Port

Well we certainly missed Lever coming across to spoil Cox. Not sure if J Smith failed there but someone did. Poor Oscar was manning Cox but we often had Jetta as the roving spoiler, instead of a 194 cm back. 

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