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1 hour ago, Petraccattack said:

There is no such thing as an honorable loss for a team thats been widely predicted to finish top 4 and with the talent we have.

A loss to Richmond is unacceptable. 

hari kari awaits you !

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On 18/04/2018 at 11:12 AM, Nasher said:

Goodwin has won more games as coach than he has lost, 27 games in to his coaching career. He now has one belting to his name.

I want to contribute something meaningful to this thread, as no doubt others have since it's 20 pages in, but the concept that he should be under any pressure whatsoever at this stage in the journey is just effing dumb. It's just not worth the energy of any further engagement.

After reading the bulk of the posts on this thread many well reasoned, many frustrated l think Nasher you have succinctly come closest to our challenge. 

Paraphrasing your post, the coach has a life experience of 27 AFL games. Just as it would be foolish to assess a player's ability after 27 games, it is just as foolish to make a judgement of Goodwin. He has much to learn about player management, game plans, structures and match day coaching. 

That is undeniably as sound, measured and rational a conclusion as any post on this issue. 

Unfortunately for us all, the natural extension of this argument is that he will not be a particularly "good" coach until he has coached for 80 - 100 games. Alternatively, it is too soon to come to a good assessment of his coaching abilities until he has had a fair opportunity to develop. 

On that basis, we probably need another 2 to 3 years for Goodwin to master his craft. Similarly we need another 2 to 3 years development of our best players who are all 24 or younger. 

Again, these conclusions all seem reasonable and sensible. 

The problem that arises for us all is that we have been through this cycle many times over 54 years. (Yes, l am one of those oldies that has seen them all). Each time we relied on the hope that in a few years, our dreams will come true, our patience will be rewarded. 

We all sense we finally have the playing list to be successful. Yet it does not seem to happen on game day, so we now turn our gaze to the coach. Since he is young and inexperienced, he needs time just as Hardwick, Clarkson, Thompson etc did. 

And there lies our ultimate challenge. Hungry as we are for success, there is really no shortcut to a flag. Each successful team recruited well, worked hard, had some luck and took time to mature. 

Despite our hopes, 2018 will not be our year to make top 4. 2019 may be. 

As for contesting in a Grand Final, our best shot, logically seems to be 2020. In April, 2018, that seems a long, long time away. 

Goody needs a chance to prove himself. The introduction of this thread and most of the posts are just a relatively harmless release of fans' pent up frustration, unrealised dreams and desperate impatience for success. 

Such is life. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Hot as Hell said:

After reading the bulk of the posts on this thread many well reasoned, many frustrated l think Nasher you have succinctly come closest to our challenge. 

Paraphrasing your post, the coach has a life experience of 27 AFL games. Just as it would be foolish to assess a player's ability after 27 games, it is just as foolish to make a judgement of Goodwin. He has much to learn about player management, game plans, structures and match day coaching. 

That is undeniably as sound, measured and rational a conclusion as any post on this issue. 

Unfortunately for us all, the natural extension of this argument is that he will not be a particularly "good" coach until he has coached for 80 - 100 games. Alternatively, it is too soon to come to a good assessment of his coaching abilities until he has had a fair opportunity to develop. 

On that basis, we probably need another 2 to 3 years for Goodwin to master his craft. Similarly we need another 2 to 3 years development of our best players who are all 24 or younger. 

Again, these conclusions all seem reasonable and sensible. 

The problem that arises for us all is that we have been through this cycle many times over 54 years. (Yes, l am one of those oldies that has seen them all). Each time we relied on the hope that in a few years, our dreams will come true, our patience will be rewarded. 

We all sense we finally have the playing list to be successful. Yet it does not seem to happen on game day, so we now turn our gaze to the coach. Since he is young and inexperienced, he needs time just as Hardwick, Clarkson, Thompson etc did. 

And there lies our ultimate challenge. Hungry as we are for success, there is really no shortcut to a flag. Each successful team recruited well, worked hard, had some luck and took time to mature. 

Despite our hopes, 2018 will not be our year to make top 4. 2019 may be. 

As for contesting in a Grand Final, our best shot, logically seems to be 2020. In April, 2018, that seems a long, long time away. 

Goody needs a chance to prove himself. The introduction of this thread and most of the posts are just a relatively harmless release of fans' pent up frustration, unrealised dreams and desperate impatience for success. 

Such is life. 

 

 

I can understand how one might extrapolate a player's journey and conclude the timelines are the same for a coach, but it's too simplistic and narrow a view.

Coaches need to develop their mind, game-plan, tactics, player development, and management skills.  An 18 year old player who comes in at 75kg will need 5 preseasons to get his body ready to regularly withstand the rigours of AFL footy.  A coach doesn't have those physical limitations.  The journey for a coach, who has already done an apprenticeship under a senior coach/es and is surrounded by assistants and experienced mentors, such as McCartney, can reach coaching's zenith far quicker than most players will reach their footballing equivalent.  

There are some similarities in that some coaches will simply be better than others.  Another is that a player is limited by the quality of his teammates, while a coach is limited by the talent at his disposal, but the length of development for either isn't parallel.

Goodwin beating an eventual grand finalist in Adelaide on their home deck in his rookie year is the equivalent of a skinny 18 year old kicking 8 goals plus in his 8th game.  As I said, it's too simplistic and narrow to compare timelines. 

Goodwin is already a great people manager if one listens to reports coming out of the club from day one.  He's already had significant coaching victories.  He's also a 300 game premiership player who captained his club.  He can get things right in the coaches box and training track far quicker than you're insinuating.

The players on the other hand are a slower burn.  Most successful rebuilds take 7 years + due to the club's list/age profile.  A total rebuild is (almost) just that.  We're in year 5 of ours.  So your 2020 marker is probably accurate, but not necessarily for the reasons you mention. 

And that's nowhere near a "long, long time away" for me.  It will also be a period of sustained success.  I'm excited by it.

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17 hours ago, puntkick said:

hari kari awaits you !

Not to be pedantic or trying to point score, but the actual term is hara kiri (腹切), literally translated as stomach cutting. 

Twas performed by Japanese imperial army soldiers upon being dishonored. 

Maybe that's what Goody could prescribe should the Tiges pants us?

 

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5 hours ago, Hot as Hell said:

After reading the bulk of the posts on this thread many well reasoned, many frustrated l think Nasher you have succinctly come closest to our challenge. 

Paraphrasing your post, the coach has a life experience of 27 AFL games. Just as it would be foolish to assess a player's ability after 27 games, it is just as foolish to make a judgement of Goodwin. He has much to learn about player management, game plans, structures and match day coaching. 

That is undeniably as sound, measured and rational a conclusion as any post on this issue. 

Unfortunately for us all, the natural extension of this argument is that he will not be a particularly "good" coach until he has coached for 80 - 100 games. Alternatively, it is too soon to come to a good assessment of his coaching abilities until he has had a fair opportunity to develop. 

On that basis, we probably need another 2 to 3 years for Goodwin to master his craft. Similarly we need another 2 to 3 years development of our best players who are all 24 or younger. 

Again, these conclusions all seem reasonable and sensible. 

The problem that arises for us all is that we have been through this cycle many times over 54 years. (Yes, l am one of those oldies that has seen them all). Each time we relied on the hope that in a few years, our dreams will come true, our patience will be rewarded. 

We all sense we finally have the playing list to be successful. Yet it does not seem to happen on game day, so we now turn our gaze to the coach. Since he is young and inexperienced, he needs time just as Hardwick, Clarkson, Thompson etc did. 

And there lies our ultimate challenge. Hungry as we are for success, there is really no shortcut to a flag. Each successful team recruited well, worked hard, had some luck and took time to mature. 

Despite our hopes, 2018 will not be our year to make top 4. 2019 may be. 

As for contesting in a Grand Final, our best shot, logically seems to be 2020. In April, 2018, that seems a long, long time away. 

Goody needs a chance to prove himself. The introduction of this thread and most of the posts are just a relatively harmless release of fans' pent up frustration, unrealised dreams and desperate impatience for success. 

Such is life. 

 

 

I agree with most of what you have said , the problem I see purely from a supporter view it's not that Goodwin is in his second year of a rebuild , we have been waiting for 7 Plus years already , I know we cant blame Goodwin for our prior stuff ups and failures but sadly we all do, we as supporters are very impatient and after games Like last week it sends us all back to the bad bad days , I know the players didn't give up but it surely sounded like it. 

In football there is no proven plan or time frame , some teams seem to never bottom out others like us cant get off the bottom. 

I hope we see some finals and a cup real soon , I won't be happy till we have another premiership and no one should be , just making finals just wining the odd game isn't good enough. 

till then I will keep supporting them, and yelling and screaming !! 

mark

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13 minutes ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

Not to be pedantic or trying to point score, but the actual term is hara kiri (腹切), literally translated as stomach cutting. 

Twas performed by Japanese imperial army soldiers upon being dishonored. 

Maybe that's what Goody could prescribe should the Tiges pants us?

 

Several translated spellings apply, depending on whether it is from the north, south or central Japan - or islander in such locations. So far, both are correct but who is being pedantic here? It is not our wording, it is just one adapted phonically for its particular meaning. The emphasis of intonation is on the second syllable for the Japanese linguist. The textual reference is the most correct and thank you for using it - we must recognise it next time as one of our descriptors for the MFC game style. Now we can all settle down to some sushi and some willow leaf tea with steamed pastries. :-)

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21 minutes ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Several translated spellings apply, depending on whether it is from the north, south or central Japan - or islander in such locations. So far, both are correct but who is being pedantic here? It is not our wording, it is just one adapted phonically for its particular meaning. The emphasis of intonation is on the second syllable for the Japanese linguist. The textual reference is the most correct and thank you for using it - we must recognise it next time as one of our descriptors for the MFC game style. Now we can all settle down to some sushi and some willow leaf tea with steamed pastries. :-)

Errm....

As I live in Japan, am bilingual and work as a translator, I can say categorically that I have never EVER heard 'Hari Kari' before said by a native Japanese speaker. Dialect can vary but I have yet to hear one where the pronunciation of ki becomes ka.

Nor have I eaten 'steamed pastries' in my ten years here. Sounds disgusting.

 

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Ah... what I love about Demonland ... one minute it's "sack the coach" and then we have a discussion on the correct phonetic translation of ritual Japanese suicide.

Thanks... has made my morning :)

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He did a pretty good job last year.

We have put ourselves "out there" as a club to play finals.

It will be the main kpi.

If we dont is Goody's tenure secure?

 

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37 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

He did a pretty good job last year.

We have put ourselves "out there" as a club to play finals.

It will be the main kpi.

If we dont is Goody's tenure secure?

 

You tell us ?  I have a view that I'm certain about, but why don't you articulate yours ?

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The good clubs choose stability over perfection.

Maybe Goodwin is not the best coach we could possibly have but self-producing a crisis will only result in step backward for a club that has really started to find it's feet in the last few years.

This season is alive and I think we'll bounce back make it a successful one.

Go Dees!

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11 minutes ago, WAClark said:

The good clubs choose stability over perfection.

Maybe Goodwin is not the best coach we could possibly have

So why isn’t he? 

I want the best. I have had a gutful of watching “other” clubs in September

i have severe doubts Goodwin will succeed now. Rounds 23 and then last week

he is out of ideas in the box. He should be devising strategies, not staring blankly at a phone

How many more kids in Primary School threw their Jumper in the bin last week?

Do we have any Demons left in Primary Schools?

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Well all this discussion makes the effort of Luke Beveridge all the more meritorious as a coach. Takes on a club that has sacked its coach, traded its skipper and lost a brownlow medallist. Takes them to the finals in year 1 and a flag in the next. I will ask him when he thinks he will peak when I see him next. He has some challenges on hand now but when on song they are ferocious.

The issue I have is I do not want to hear the phrase "Didn't see that coming" or "I don't know where that affort came from". PJ summed it up last weekend when he said the team trashed the brand and stunk up the G. I thought after R23 last year that experience would toughen up the group and they would never surrender. I don't want see another effort like it under Goody's watch. The response and way we take on Richmond will tell us what the club really stands for and how we perform over the next month. I want to see a desperate, hard at it team and that starts with the players and the leaders managed by Goody and the coaching team.

He isn't the best yet and years of coaching aren't a KPI but he shouldn't bear all the responsibility.

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24 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I want the best. I have had a gutful of watching “other” clubs in September

i have severe doubts Goodwin will succeed now. Rounds 23 and then last week

Goodwin has suffered his first 10 goal loss in his 26 game coaching career at the dees and you now have severe doubts about him ?

What were your thoughts after round 8 last year when we knocked off Adelaide in Adelaide by 8 goals ?

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12 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Goodwin has suffered his first 10 goal loss in his 26 game coaching career at the dees and you now have severe doubts about him ?

What were your thoughts after round 8 last year when we knocked off Adelaide in Adelaide by 8 goals ?

My severe doubts started after Rounds 22-23 last year. 

If you can’t motivate a side to give its all for 120 minutes, in order to make the finals for the first time in 11 years against an all time enemy who had half a side in, you aint much chop as the man. 

5 games later the white flags were shown again

Hanging on by a thread Pro

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4 hours ago, Mach5 said:

Great leadership.

Lucky then PJ does not post on the site - some would accuse him of being a “troll” for his unconditional support of Goody. 

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Goodwin is a 26 game senior coach. Yet some are aghast he was out coached by arguably the greatest coach of the modern era in the 309 games coach Clarkson. Allegedly that occurring can only calculated that this must mean he cant coach.

In Clarkson's first 6 years as coach he only had a season win record 60% or better once (granted it was the premier year of 2008). I assume there was many times in that period he was questioned. I am sure he learnt plenty on the way.

Damian Hardwick was 8 years in before anyone really rated him and it took a premiership for that to make some get there. He clearly switched last year to a new game style and an inclusive attitude that had a team full of role players with 3-4 stars clinically put it all together at the right time of year to win the ultimate. They now are invested and continue it on in 2018.

I like it that a new coach is still trying new things strategically and I assume in how he works with the players. He would still be learning about the team, his beliefs and the players at his disposal. 26 games in the team is not his yet and it pains me to say but the thing that still cruels us time and time again is our lack of mature leadership on the field. I suspect it will be much improved when Viney returns and when T-Mac even though not officially a leader starts prowling the forward 50. 

I think that the last weekend ,may close the first chapter in Goodwins senior coaching development which has been pretty static in style until now. I suspect he will have learned more about himself and the team in that than the many games before. If he strolls out with the same team and no change in style I will be disappointed but dont suspect that will be the case. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

My severe doubts started after Rounds 22-23 last year. 

If you can’t motivate a side to give its all for 120 minutes, in order to make the finals for the first time in 11 years against an all time enemy who had half a side in, you aint much chop as the man. 

5 games later the white flags were shown again

Hanging on by a thread Pro

You haven't answered my question.

What were your thoughts after round 8 last year when we knocked off Adelaide in Adelaide by 8 goals ?

 

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18 minutes ago, ProDee said:

You haven't answered my question.

What were your thoughts after round 8 last year when we knocked off Adelaide in Adelaide by 8 goals ?

 

Thought you would say that

I enjoyed the win, but we got soundly beaten the week after, so it was largely negated. 

Goodwin has real problems motivating the side on match days

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22 minutes ago, DaveyDee said:

Lucky then PJ does not post on the site - some would accuse him of being a “troll” for his unconditional support of Goody. 

Sittng in The Tiger Cheer Squad on Tuesday night Who?

Go and raise some more Tiger $$$’s and get out of here

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25 minutes ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

Goodwin is a 26 game senior coach. Yet some are aghast he was out coached by arguably the greatest coach of the modern era in the 309 games coach Clarkson. Allegedly that occurring can only calculated that this must mean he cant coach.

In Clarkson's first 6 years as coach he only had a season win record 60% or better once (granted it was the premier year of 2008). I assume there was many times in that period he was questioned. I am sure he learnt plenty on the way.

Damian Hardwick was 8 years in before anyone really rated him and it took a premiership for that to make some get there. He clearly switched last year to a new game style and an inclusive attitude that had a team full of role players with 3-4 stars clinically put it all together at the right time of year to win the ultimate. They now are invested and continue it on in 2018.

I like it that a new coach is still trying new things strategically and I assume in how he works with the players. He would still be learning about the team, his beliefs and the players at his disposal. 26 games in the team is not his yet and it pains me to say but the thing that still cruels us time and time again is our lack of mature leadership on the field. I suspect it will be much improved when Viney returns and when T-Mac even though not officially a leader starts prowling the forward 50. 

I think that the last weekend ,may close the first chapter in Goodwins senior coaching development which has been pretty static in style until now. I suspect he will have learned more about himself and the team in that than the many games before. If he strolls out with the same team and no change in style I will be disappointed but dont suspect that will be the case. 

 

Stop the excuses Red

Goodwin has been part of the Coaching regime for over 3 years and the White Flag is still an issue. 

A Big One

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1 minute ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Thought you would say that

I enjoyed the win, but we got soundly beaten the week after, so it was largely negated. 

Goodwin has real problems motivating the side on match days

I'm not talking about how you felt the week after, I'm talking about how you felt after the round 8 win. 

Clearly, you get my point.  Your views wax and wane far too much over singular results, such as round 23 in what was year 4.

Richmond were down by 90 points at half-time in round 16 year 8.  They went on to lose by 80 to a non finalist.  They're now a premiership team.  Bad, even shocking, days happen.  In isolation they mean little when you're discussing a developing team. 

Brereton has verbal diarrhea, but he has a keen insight into footy.  For years he (rightly) hasn't rated us.  This morning he said he wasn't overly worried by the loss and said we may find by round 16 that Melbourne are serious players. 

You, and others, should take a deep breath and stsrt analysing blocks of 4 weeks and not just one game, let alone quarters, as some do. 

Seemingly, intelligent people become simpletons when it comes to football (not specifically talking about you here).

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4 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I'm not talking about how you felt the week after, I'm talking about how you felt after the round 8 win. 

Clearly, you get my point.  Your views wax and wane far too much over singular results, such as round 23 in what was year 4.

Richmond were down by 90 points at half-time in round 16 year 8.  They went on to lose by 80 to a non finalist.  They're now a premiership team.  Bad, even shocking, days happen.  In isolation they mean little when you're discussing a developing team. 

Brereton has verbal diarrhea, but he has a keen insight into footy.  For years he (rightly) hasn't rated us.  This morning he said he wasn't overly worried by the loss and said we may find by round 16 that Melbourne are serious players. 

You, and others, should take a deep breath and stsrt analysing blocks of 4 weeks and not just one game, let alone quarters, as some do. 

Seemingly, intelligent people become simpletons when it comes to football (not specifically talking about you here).

Stop looking down on people who have differing eyes. 

You treat people on here like inferior matter. 

Goodwin has worried me since Round 23 last year, ( no tackles in the first Quarter for 11 minutes, against the Filth Reserve side)

he has serious problems motivating on Match Day. 

I don’t give a Flying F about what other teams have and have not done, we are in a seperate category

Our weakness has been so deep and long, i would love to see Goodwin succeed, but it aint looking likely at present. 

The white flag is still in easy reach

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I'm not talking about how you felt the week after, I'm talking about how you felt after the round 8 win. 

Clearly, you get my point.  Your views wax and wane far too much over singular results, such as round 23 in what was year 4.

Richmond were down by 90 points at half-time in round 16 year 8.  They went on to lose by 80 to a non finalist.  They're now a premiership team.  Bad, even shocking, days happen.  In isolation they mean little when you're discussing a developing team. 

Brereton has verbal diarrhea, but he has a keen insight into footy.  For years he (rightly) hasn't rated us.  This morning he said he wasn't overly worried by the loss and said we may find by round 16 that Melbourne are serious players. 

You, and others, should take a deep breath and stsrt analysing blocks of 4 weeks and not just one game, let alone quarters, as some do. 

Seemingly, intelligent people become simpletons when it comes to football (not specifically talking about you here).

Analysing blocks of 4 weeks or so is not flattering. Our worst performances in those time frames come at the end of them which appear to undo much earlier meaningful improvement. Then we start from scratch again. It’s been a cycle for the past three seasons. 

Edited by america de cali

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