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1 minute ago, SFebey said:

He's not a new coach, he's been there 3 years under the eye of a Roos rebuild. He is not a new rookie coach like many are

Yes he is.

It is completely different being put in charge of a club than being an assistant.  You only need to look at the heat he's copping now to see the difference.  Malthouse often spoke of how easy it is being an assistant without being responsible for every major coaching decision.  Whether it be selection, game styles, results, culture, the buck stops with the head coach, not the assistant.

He was given a more talented list than most rookie coaches, but it's ridiculous to suggest a second year coach isn't a rookie.  Although, not entirely unsurprising.

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7 minutes ago, SFebey said:

He's not a new coach, he's been there 3 years under the eye of a Roos rebuild. He is not a new rookie coach like many are

I disagree. The only real difference between him and any other assistant come senior coach is he was anointed earlier in the piece. He would’ve taken some ideas from his mentors but still be seeing if his own work. Time will tell if he’s any good but I don’t buy the whole “this is really his 3rd or 4th year as senior coach” argument because it simply isn’t true.

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4 minutes ago, Johnny Karate said:

I disagree. The only real difference between him and any other assistant come senior coach is he was anointed earlier in the piece. He would’ve taken some ideas from his mentors but still be seeing if his own work. Time will tell if he’s any good but I don’t buy the whole “this is really his 3rd or 4th year as senior coach” argument because it simply isn’t true.

I didn't say this was his 3rd or 4th year as senior coach..... I just said hes been there 3 years, under a very good mentor coach and isn't going in blind......

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12 minutes ago, SFebey said:

I didn't say this was his 3rd or 4th year as senior coach..... I just said hes been there 3 years, under a very good mentor coach and isn't going in blind......

There are plenty of now senior coaches who learnt under good mentors, by that standard no one walks into a senior job blind. The only difference with Goodwin was that it was preordained that he would take over two years out. It may have been beneficial for him to get to know the players beforehand but in real coaching terms he’s had 26 games.

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My concern is that as a club we do not have the luxury of time this season or beyond. 

The players and coach need to turn the ship around quickly. Last Sundays performance and thrashing was a revisit of the bad old days. If we continue to perform like we did on Sunday, the support for the club from all quarters is going to drop away very quickly. The perception of our footy club will be reinforced and voiced loudly by the media and the footy world.

And of course, as often happens with a losing club, the cracks within the club internally will emerge and be talked about. Certain players unhappy and want to jump ship, trouble between coaching staff or between admin and coach,  players unhappy with coach etc etc. Unfortunately, we have seen it all before over and over again. 

Until we start to win consistently, the coach is going to be under the pump.

I hope that Goodwin still has the trust and support of the players. If he doesn't or he begins to lose that support then its going to be a very long and sad season.  

It will be all played out over the next few weeks. 

 

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16 minutes ago, hemingway said:

My concern is that as a club we do not have the luxury of time this season or beyond. 

The players and coach need to turn the ship around quickly. Last Sundays performance and thrashing was a revisit of the bad old days. If we continue to perform like we did on Sunday, the support for the club from all quarters is going to drop away very quickly. The perception of our footy club will be reinforced and voiced loudly by the media and the footy world.

And of course, as often happens with a losing club, the cracks within the club internally will emerge and be talked about. Certain players unhappy and want to jump ship, trouble between coaching staff or between admin and coach,  players unhappy with coach etc etc. Unfortunately, we have seen it all before over and over again. 

Until we start to win consistently, the coach is going to be under the pump.

I hope that Goodwin still has the trust and support of the players. If he doesn't or he begins to lose that support then its going to be a very long and sad season.  

It will be all played out over the next few weeks. 

 

I wonder if the camp, Watts departure and over paying Lever has upset some players?

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1 hour ago, Soidee said:

At the moment I am supporting Goody, although if we fail to make the 8 with this list then it’s a coaching issue and I will be far less emotionally involved with the club going forward.  It just too long hanging around outside the 8.

As for a major issue as I see it, the players get too happy with themselves and drink their own bath water.  This is real!  An example on the weekend close to quarter time, Hogan mocked the first gamer several times for ducking a contest.  The first gamer went onto playing a bettter game than Hogan. I’m sure Hawthorn used this example to motivate them at quarter time.  

This group have achieved NOTHING yet!  So cut the nonsense and get the job done before you crow about anything!

LOL, drinking our own bath water, the most over used term on this site, if only it was that simple. Think the problems are a bit deeper than that. Maybe at the moment we're just not good enough in the mental, tactical and physical areas of the game.

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2 hours ago, Petraccattack said:

 

Wouldnt be too many rookie coaches who have won better than 50% of their first 26 games.

I overreacted to this loss like a lot of people.  I support Goody!  We all knew there would be bumps along the way.  We are only four rounds in.  It will all come together.  

 

without checking going out on a limb

Demnis Pagan, Adam Simpson, Chris Scott, Sheedy, The Reverand, Neil Craig, Brenton Sanderson, Don Pyke,  Rocket Eade, Terry Wallace, Ross Lyon and David Parkin off the top of my head.

Doesn't always mean it's a long term sign

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7 minutes ago, SFebey said:

I wonder if the camp, Watts departure and over paying Lever has upset some players?

Perhaps. 

We know that there was unhappiness from some of the players toward the camp and it would be entirely natural if some players were unhappy with the way the club dealt with the Watts departure. Christ, there were a lot of people who were unhappy with the way Watts was hung out to dry.

Perhaps, it reflects poorly on the coach or the players attitude toward him.

If so, a good coach needs to be across all that and be able to re-establish or mend relationships and regain the support of all.  Coaches like Hardwick, Clarkson and even Buckley seem to have been able to weather the storms and maintain player support. 

A good coach as well as being tactically astute, needs to have excellent communication skills, judgement, be tough but fair. and have empathy. As Hardwick showed last year, he was able to look into himself, self reflect and not be dictated to by ego. Hardwick was prepared to blame himself and not the players and made changes things to do with his personal style and coaching methods. That requires emotional intelligence and strength. 

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The problem with Goodwin is that he thinks he is the smartest person in the room. He has a plan that he is not going to change for anyone or anything, even though it is clearly broken and every other coach has worked out how to combat it. He has drawn a line through certain players, and will play others constantly, regardless of form and match ups. 

What were the tactics or positional moves that were made on Sunday, successful or unsuccessful? Did he do anything at all? In fact, did he even notice that Hawthorn were in control for the last 15 minutes of the first quarter, even though they were behind on the scoreboard? When the rain came, what was done differently, if anything?

I'd be interested to know how much say he has had in choosing his assistant coaches, because Troy Chaplin in particular has been woeful since arriving at the club. The opposition analyst is clearly not doing his job either.

The comparison with Neeld is fair enough. Neeld's teams had a tiny fraction of the talent of the current group. The fact that the current group is serving up performances that are similarly laughable is an indictment on the coach (and the players themselves).

Ultimately, I don't see how Goodwin can be in charge next year if we don't play finals this year. 

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Poita.... it's not just Goodwin whos thinking is at work here. 

He's being steered. The rudder has changed ;)

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6 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Poita.... it's not just Goodwin whos thinking is at work here. 

He's being steered. The rudder has changed ;)

Please expand.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, hemingway said:

My concern is that as a club we do not have the luxury of time this season or beyond. 

The players and coach need to turn the ship around quickly. Last Sundays performance and thrashing was a revisit of the bad old days. If we continue to perform like we did on Sunday, the support for the club from all quarters is going to drop away very quickly. The perception of our footy club will be reinforced and voiced loudly by the media and the footy world.

And of course, as often happens with a losing club, the cracks within the club internally will emerge and be talked about. Certain players unhappy and want to jump ship, trouble between coaching staff or between admin and coach,  players unhappy with coach etc etc. Unfortunately, we have seen it all before over and over again. 

Until we start to win consistently, the coach is going to be under the pump.

I hope that Goodwin still has the trust and support of the players. If he doesn't or he begins to lose that support then its going to be a very long and sad season.  

It will be all played out over the next few weeks. 

 

Supporters have to be realistic about their team and list profile.  You show little realism.

I've always subscribed to the well held view in football that a player usually won't influence games consistently until they've played 60-80 games.

The following players, all in our nominal best 22 (save the odd omission), have all played 60 games or less.

Lever, Kent, Hogan, Salem, Harmes, Hunt, Petracca, Oscar McDonald, Oliver, Neal-Bullen, Brayshaw, Wagner (debatable), Hannan, Fritsch.

That's 14 or 15 players who have either just hit 60 games, are between 50 and 60, or are less than 50.  That's two thirds of the team.

Most will start moving into the desired range either this year or next, but there are still going to be consistency issues with a relatively young team.

It's just reality.  It may not be your (and others) reality, but it's life's reality.

There are plenty of examples with other clubs of how it usually takes 7-8 years to win a flag once you've started a quality rebuild.  Posters don't seem to care about the facts available to them.  They're plain for all to see.

 

Edited by ProDee
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9 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Supporters have to be realistic about their team and list profile.  You show little realism.

I've always subscribed to the well held view in football that a player usually won't influence games consistently until they've played 60-80 games.

The following players, all in our nominal best 22 (saved the odd omission), have all played 60 games or less.

Lever, Kent, Hogan, Salem, Harmes, Hunt, Petracca, Oscar McDonald, Oliver, Neal-Bullen, Brayshaw, Wagner (debatable), Hannan, Fritsch.

That's 14 or 15 players who have either just hit 60 games, are between 50 and 60, or are less than 50.  That's two thirds of the team.

Most will start moving into the desired range either this year or next, but there are still going to be consistency issues with a relatively young team.

It's just reality.  It may not be your (and others) reality, but it's life's reality.

There are plenty of examples with other clubs of how it usually takes 7-8 years to win a flag once you've started a quality rebuild.  Posters don't seem to care about the facts available to them.  They're plain for all to see.

 

I think this is right and posted something preseason that the only thing that would hold us back this year is the inexperience of the list and in particular the coach. As long as he doesn't make any fatal (in coaching terms losing the players) mistakes he can't be written off yet...

Remember Blight said we wouldn't make the 8 this year as our list didn't have the experience needed.

He may be right.

...but I've still got the glass half full for season 2018, it did spring a leak on Sunday though.

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7 hours ago, old dee said:

For better or worse Skuit he will be our coach to at least the end of 2018, he is not hopeless like Neeld and he has a good management structure behind him now. 

However if we don't make eighth place this year it will be looking very grim.

 

I try to steer clear of definitive future statements Old Dee, but finals or not, there is absolutely no way PJ lets the coach get sacked at the end of this year. It would be footballing suicide.

And while I'm here I have a question which continues to vex me. Many have accused you of being pessimistic over the years but I've always thought the cynicism measured and hard-earned (assuming you are 'old' and not just catfishing). 

To me this is by far the best administration we've had since I've followed the club. We're putting an evident system in place to not just win a flag but to develop sustainable success. What I don't understand - and it's not directed at you but you may be able to enlighten me -

Why do our older supporters who have been waiting over fifty years for some joy continue to complain every time we try something different - such as off-loading Jack and instituting a game-plan which we believe can break the mould?

God help me if I'm still waiting for Melbourne to achieve some modicum of success twenty years from now, but by then I imagine I'd be willing for my club to try just about anything new. Demanding it in fact.

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6 minutes ago, Skuit said:

I try to steer clear of definitive future statements Old Dee, but finals or not, there is absolutely no way PJ lets the coach get sacked at the end of this year. It would be footballing suicide.

And while I'm here I have a question which continues to vex me. Many have accused you of being pessimistic over the years but I've always thought the cynicism measured and hard-earned (assuming you are 'old' and not just catfishing). 

To me this is by far the best administration we've had since I've followed the club. We're putting an evident system in place to not just win a flag but to develop sustainable success. What I don't understand - and it's not directed at you but you may be able to enlighten me -

Why do our older supporters who have been waiting over fifty years for some joy continue to complain every time we try something different - such as off-loading Jack and instituting a game-plan which we believe can break the mould?

God help me if I'm still waiting for Melbourne to achieve some modicum of success twenty years from now, but by then I imagine I'd be willing for my club to try just about anything new. Demanding it in fact.

Some of us have gone more than those 50 years. The last four years have been the agony. 

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6 minutes ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Some of us have gone more than those 50 years. The last four years have been the agony. 

Can you explain why these last four years have been the worst for you Deemania?

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Posted (edited)

One thing that has been Tomas Bugging me is the fact Goodwin messes around at the start of games with weird tactics, ie: the web, zone, playing our forward flanks back on the square and no wings, yet when the schizen hits the fan, hes like a stunned mullet. Surely he knows what has worked previous weeks so why try this weird crap at the start of games? 

Edited by SFebey
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1 hour ago, rjay said:

I think this is right and posted something preseason that the only thing that would hold us back this year is the inexperience of the list and in particular the coach. As long as he doesn't make any fatal (in coaching terms losing the players) mistakes he can't be written off yet...

Remember Blight said we wouldn't make the 8 this year as our list didn't have the experience needed.

He may be right.

...but I've still got the glass half full for season 2018, it did spring a leak on Sunday though.

The only problem with this is that it's wrong. Teams have played finals with less experience, and teams have won flags with less experience.

I think it was the polite way for him to say "they're just not a finals teams", which is more risky especially with some internally at the AFL sprouting around in media circles that the league is tipping (and hoping for) a Melbourne flag.

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13 minutes ago, Skuit said:

Can you explain why these last four years have been the worst for you Deemania?

I suspect because all of us are getting older and those who have been around for 50 odd years, getting very old. 

We have been waiting a long time and time is running out.

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1 hour ago, poita said:

The comparison with Neeld is fair enough. Neeld's teams had a tiny fraction of the talent of the current group. The fact that the current group is serving up performances that are similarly laughable is an indictment on the coach (and the players themselves).

You've got to be joking!

Neeld won 5 games in 1.5 years and had a huge number of blowout losses.

Who can forget the 2012 Round 1 debacle against Brisbane (7 goal loss at the MCG)? What about Round1 2013, a 14-goal loss to Port at home? What about Round 2, 148-point loss to Essendon at the MCG, our worst MCG loss ever? What about the 15-goal loss the week after to the Eagles at the MCG? The 10-goal loss to the Suns at the MCG? The 90-point loss to Freo in Perth, backed up by another 90-point loss to Hawthorn the week after? The 83-point loss to the Pies on QB?

We've really had only one blowout loss under Goodwin and you are saying the performances are similar with Neeld's team? Yet we have won 14 of 26 under Goodwin, including beating WCE in Perth and Adelaide in Adelaide last year.

Absolutely ridiculous

 

 

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Scoop Junior said:

You've got to be joking!

Neeld won 5 games in 1.5 years and had a huge number of blowout losses.

Who can forget the 2012 Round 1 debacle against Brisbane (7 goal loss at the MCG)? What about Round1 2013, a 14-goal loss to Port at home? What about Round 2, 148-point loss to Essendon at the MCG, our worst MCG loss ever? What about the 15-goal loss the week after to the Eagles at the MCG? The 10-goal loss to the Suns at the MCG? The 90-point loss to Freo in Perth, backed up by another 90-point loss to Hawthorn the week after? The 83-point loss to the Pies on QB?

We've really had only one blowout loss under Goodwin and you are saying the performances are similar with Neeld's team? Yet we have won 14 of 26 under Goodwin, including beating WCE in Perth and Adelaide in Adelaide last year.

Absolutely ridiculous

 

 

To be fair S J every self respecting Dees supporter has blanked the Neeld years from their mind.

Only way to survive ;)

Please don't remind us of how bad he was for our club.

Edited by Diamond_Jim

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2 minutes ago, Skuit said:

Can you explain why these last four years have been the worst for you Deemania?

10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ... and in the last 4 years, more of the same as the lack of success continues to magnify the past mountain, and at times has really interfered with rational ideas across such a timeframe of support, loyalty, passion, hope, belief, dedication, to name a few. In these 4 years, the need to rebound and rekindle success became even more pressing. At times, one feels that a Demon flag is going to be completely missed in this lifetime and this is worrying, as I don't think that Foxtel is installed in Heaven. 

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5 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Usually over a preseason though, it's harder to do so within season if you haven't trained for it.

I assume they trained for their defensive strategy in pre-season. The fact its not working means they need to make a decision: throw it out and start again or tweak it.

It looks like a tweak to me. They are clearly pushing too high up the ground and have no shape when the ball is coming back at them. Thats where leadership comes in. With Vince, Lewis and Lever down there they should be able to talk and work it out. That is the most disappointing aspect. Lewis in particular was highlighted in the On the Couch segment for some poor cov erage and tackles but they all copped a spray quite rightly.

The Vince toe poke that resulted in a goal was farcical.

The Frost spoil into the goal square was also comical.

With Nev and Hibberd not playing well, no one is leading down there.

Maybe they should have swapped Vince and Jones after half time...

 

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2 minutes ago, Deemania since 56 said:

10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ... and in the last 4 years, more of the same as the lack of success continues to magnify the past mountain, and at times has really interfered with rational ideas across such a timeframe of support, loyalty, passion, hope, belief, dedication, to name a few. In these 4 years, the need to rebound and rekindle success became even more pressing. At times, one feels that a Demon flag is going to be completely missed in this lifetime and this is worrying, as I don't think that Foxtel is installed in Heaven. 

So as to my previous post Deemania - do you not feel we are trying something different this time - such as bringing in hard competitive players - or do you think we're making the same old mistakes? If the latter - and you have a much greater history to draw from than me - could you elucidate what you consider these mistakes are as being repeated by the current admin?

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