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1 hour ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

You’ll probably tell me otherwise because McCartney told you differently but I feel we really lack on-field leadership. Hopefully this changes when Viney and TMac are back. 

Unfortunately there were too many fires to put out, we were awful all over the field

On field leadership, especially in footy is overrated, look at Cotchin, questions about his on field leadership, Premiership what issues?

Selwood leads by example, we had Jones doing that yesterday    alone

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Just now, Satyriconhome said:

On field leadership, especially in footy is overrated, look at Cotchin, questions about his on field leadership, Premiership what issues?

I don’t think that on field leadership is overrated. In fact, I think it is enormously underrated.

However I think supporters are incredibly bad at knowing what it is and recognising it when it occurs. A lot of it they wouldn’t even know was happening, nor would they be able to unless they were on the inside.

Most people look at leaders as being the best player, or those that lead by example. They are not necessarily the best leaders, because leadership is about communicating and making the others around you play in a way that makes the overall team better.

Look at two of the most successful captains of the last decade: Tom Harley and Nick Maxwell. As players they were low level talents. On the field they were unspectacular and workmanlike. But they were outstanding captains because of their ability with people, communicating standards, on field leadership (not leading by example, but setting up teams structurally and communicating changes when the game required it) and other off field things.

Supporters are terrible at picking leaders because they can only see what’s in front of their face. Sometimes they can’t even see that.

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9 hours ago, dl4e said:

He is in his second year as coach of any AFL team. It is too early to sack him but criticism is fair.  I believe he will see out his contract unless something melbournesque happens to the club this year.

 something archetypically melbournesque happened after  the quarter time ("how good are we")  break yesterday. 

9 hours ago, Uncle Fester said:

What worries me is that he thinks he is too clever by half. He seems to think that his grand plan of the week will baffle and confuse the opposition. What it does is gives us a 5 minute break, then other coaches figure it out and use it against us. Having no wings? Really? Half the forwardline starting on the back flank? Really? Midgets in the ruck? Really?

These things are fine for a little bit to unsettle the opposition team, but there is a bloody good reason why they aren't the norm. It's no wonder why our forward line and back line are looking more and more dysfunctional by the week. They have no set plan; no time to gel before the next brain fart changes everything. But the big thing is that he won't or can't change these things when they are countered by a better coach ( like yesterday). 

I'm not surprised the players gave up yesterday. When the instructions you are given stop making sense then you don't have a team; you have 22 players all trying to interpret things in a way that does make sense to them.

We aren't losing games at the selection table. We are losing them because each week the players are given different directives.

Sadly, Goodwin isn't THE NORM, in fact none of our coaches have been even half Norm since 1964

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9 hours ago, ProDee said:

I do have one concern...

Notwithstanding Goodwin's use of the word "humble" in every second sentence I reckon the players drink their own bathwater.  Malthouse touched on it and I reckon he's right.

I went to a function 18 months ago and McCartney was the guest.  He said the list was as good as Geelong's from back in the early 00s.  The playing group have been told how good they're going to be constantly.  The players talked up the list at every opportunity over summer.  Roos talks up the talent on the list it at every opportunity when he's commentating one their games.

One suspects some of these blokes get way ahead of themselves. 

I wish they didn't have smoke blown up their clacker at every opportunity.

Yep compare this to the Dogs and Tigers who had the "no-one believes in us" angle fuelling them, for our blokes it's "everyone's expecting it". I wish we'd get no positive media til we can actually prove it on the ground first.

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56 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

The common denominator between Geelong (Thompson and Scott) and Richmond is Neil Balme - the guy is a genius. 

No way of knowing but I firmly believe Thompson, Scott and Hardwick would not have been Premiership coaches without him.

Unfortunately, we do not have a Neil Balme type position at our club.  His is a similar position to that held by Fagan overseeing all of Clarkson's flags.  Yes, we have Macca and Mahoney but they don't perform the role of a Fagan or Balme.

Goodwin is a good coach but is floundering.  He could do with a Neil Balme type to mentor, question and guide him. 

Edit:  am a huge fan of both Macca and Mahoney so no criticism of them implied - they just have a different role to Balme and Fagan.

Goodwin is not a good coach let"s get that right!

Its up to Goodwin top prove his worth and it just got a lot harder

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Just now, jackaub said:

Goodwin is not a good coach let"s get that right!

Its up to Goodwin top prove his worth and it just got a lot harder

I have in uncle whos a Hawk supporter that was adamant Clarkson wasn't a good coach either.

 

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3 hours ago, Mach5 said:

I shouldn't be surprised, but I am simply shocked at the massive over-reaction on this forum.

It only confirms that people in general are mindless sheep.

Just listen to yourself it is not an over reaction 

It is entirely measured given the situation

I wish some would stop accepting pathetic performances and making lame excuses

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2 minutes ago, Unleash Hell said:

I have in uncle whos a Hawk supporter that was adamant Clarkson wasn't a good coach either.

 

Well he obviously wans't a good judge 

Maybe it runs in the family

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Just now, jackaub said:

Well he obviously wans't a good judge 

Maybe it runs in the family

Maybe...

Or maybe most pundits don't know what they're talking about.

Jury is out on Goody I don't care if you guys bag him, but I will try bring some fairness and have a bit of fun :)

Big test for him up to round 13 though, he'd want to win the majority in the next 8 games. Some very winnable games there.

We are (supporters) jumping the gun, but I guess that's society today.

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I don't know if Goodwin is the guy to lead us to the glory we've been hanging out for for so long but I do know that at this point we have to back him in. Hardwick was given so much time over periods where let's be honest it wouldn't have been the craziest thing to sack him, but they were rewarded with the faith.

I think he has some interesting ideas but he has been out-coached on more than a few occasions (the weekend probably being the worst). His decision to play Jones on Mitchell for me was a howler, we needed Jones finding the ball for us, particularly when things weren't working. For me Vince should've been the one to go with Mitchell as we lose a lot less from that.

When things weren't working and we threw men behind the ball they had no direction, no pathway for getting it out of defence, and even then when we had chances to do it we buggered it up with deplorable skills.

It was a bad day for everyone on Sunday, from the top to the bottom.

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Some good points in this thread. Particularly about the journey Geelong and Richmond took to win a flag. 

But I do wonder if anyone here is happy waiting 8 years finding out if this ends in a flag or not. I have no doubt Goodwin will see out his current contract, I just don’t know if he continues beyond that. 

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

I don’t think that on field leadership is overrated. In fact, I think it is enormously underrated.

However I think supporters are incredibly bad at knowing what it is and recognising it when it occurs. A lot of it they wouldn’t even know was happening, nor would they be able to unless they were on the inside.

Most people look at leaders as being the best player, or those that lead by example. They are not necessarily the best leaders, because leadership is about communicating and making the others around you play in a way that makes the overall team better.

Look at two of the most successful captains of the last decade: Tom Harley and Nick Maxwell. As players they were low level talents. On the field they were unspectacular and workmanlike. But they were outstanding captains because of their ability with people, communicating standards, on field leadership (not leading by example, but setting up teams structurally and communicating changes when the game required it) and other off field things.

Supporters are terrible at picking leaders because they can only see what’s in front of their face. Sometimes they can’t even see that.

The whole leadership 'thing' is overrated, I am in my 60's and have met 2 real leaders in all that time

Some have titles that indicate they are leaders but no they're not

Our 2 captains play the game the way it should be played so everyone votes for them to be captain, same with Selwood, but they are not leaders in the true sense of the word

Edited by Satyriconhome

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6 minutes ago, Jaded said:

Some good points in this thread. Particularly about the journey Geelong and Richmond took to win a flag. 

But I do wonder if anyone here is happy waiting 8 years finding out if this ends in a flag or not. I have no doubt Goodwin will see out his current contract, I just don’t know if he continues beyond that. 

Considering we have the list capable of winning it this year then no, I am not happy to wait 8 years. Our best footy is up there with the best in the comp, and our worst footy is down there with the worst in the comp. At some point the decision makers need to make some tough calls, because at this stage in our development, we should be more consistent. I'd be looking at Clarkson at years end, but outside of that, there may be someone else available. What we don't need is another untried coach. We need someone to set clear standards as to what is and what isn't acceptable. 

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4 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

The whole leadership 'thing' is overrated, I am in my 60's and have met 2 real leaders in all that time

Some have titles that indicate they are leaders but no they're not

Our 2 captains play the game the way it should be played so everyone votes for them to be captain, same with Selwood, but they are not leaders in the true sense of the word

Would have agreed with you on this one Saty a few years back and said that the chief job of the captain is winning the coin toss.

These days with full time players the role of the captain is much more. He is not the decision maker so in that sense I agree he is not the leader but he does need to lead by example, encouragement and where necessary direction both on match day and in the confines of the football environment. A well structured leadership group that works in well with the coach is a fantastic advantage.

The camp fiasco shows we don't have it right at present.

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1 minute ago, Satyriconhome said:

The whole leadership 'thing' is overrated, I am in my 60's and have met 2 real leaders in all that time

I disagree entirely.

Success is built on culture. Culture is driven by leaders. 

Look at Gawn’s article about Nathan Jones. Gawn turned up to the gym for a holiday session, thinking he was doing the right thing and Jones saw him cutting corners and made him do the whole session properly. That’s what leadership is.

Winning the hard ball is what a footballer does, but making your teammates feel like their only option is to be the best footballer they can be is what a leader does.

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57 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

The whole leadership 'thing' is overrated, I am in my 60's and have met 2 real leaders in all that time

 

Churchill and Thatcher ?

 

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54 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

I disagree entirely.

Success is built on culture. Culture is driven by leaders. 

Look at Gawn’s article about Nathan Jones. Gawn turned up to the gym for a holiday session, thinking he was doing the right thing and Jones saw him cutting corners and made him do the whole session properly. That’s what leadership is.

Winning the hard ball is what a footballer does, but making your teammates feel like their only option is to be the best footballer they can be is what a leader does.

Absolutely correct... and yet there's still a real dearth of it.

We've imported some and the Melbourne effect takes hold.

Its bloody weird to tell the truth.

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9 minutes ago, Fork 'em said:

Churchill and Thatcher ?

 

I'd suggest Hannibal and Ghengis Khan. 

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1 hour ago, Pates said:

I don't know if Goodwin is the guy to lead us to the glory we've been hanging out for for so long but I do know that at this point we have to back him in. Hardwick was given so much time over periods where let's be honest it wouldn't have been the craziest thing to sack him, but they were rewarded with the faith.

I think he has some interesting ideas but he has been out-coached on more than a few occasions (the weekend probably being the worst). His decision to play Jones on Mitchell for me was a howler, we needed Jones finding the ball for us, particularly when things weren't working. For me Vince should've been the one to go with Mitchell as we lose a lot less from that.

When things weren't working and we threw men behind the ball they had no direction, no pathway for getting it out of defence, and even then when we had chances to do it we buggered it up with deplorable skills.

It was a bad day for everyone on Sunday, from the top to the bottom.

There’s posters here asking for Goody blood in his 2nd season! Imagine if Rich had caved into the demands @ the end of the 2016 season??? 

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1 hour ago, Satyriconhome said:

The whole leadership 'thing' is overrated, I am in my 60's and have met 2 real leaders in all that time

Some have titles that indicate they are leaders but no they're not

Our 2 captains play the game the way it should be played so everyone votes for them to be captain, same with Selwood, but they are not leaders in the true sense of the word

This, I think, is not quite right.  I agree with you as a fellow child of the fifties, that natural-born leaders are a rarity.  On the other hand, I have absolutely no doubt that great leadership (whether on or off the field) can make the difference between a good team and a great team.  I have worked with (and for) a few.  Leadership is a skill that can also be taught either formally or by mentoring and we don't seem to have been able to do it.  Great players don't necessarily make great leaders but it helps to be able to set an example.  I have written here before about our lack of leadership and I thought that last week, Nate Jones was exactly the sort of leader we needed in the crucial last quarter.  He displayed the brain, the skill level andd commitment to work out what was needed and do it on three occasions and helped us to seal the game.  I think we would have been better served on Sunday by having someone like Bugg or Vince look after Mitchell and allowed Jones to be the captain. 

I don't think it makes sense to call for Goodwin's sacking at this point (not that anyone listens!) but he needs to start facing reality that on-field performance is a always a coaching issue unless you have inherited a bunch of incompetents.....and our playing group is certainly not that.   Will be really interested to see how we respond at the selection table and at the game.

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1 hour ago, Satyriconhome said:

The whole leadership 'thing' is overrated...

This says a lot, chap.  I don't think you understand football.  And possibly life. 

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, Fork 'em said:

Churchill and Thatcher ?

 

Thatcher, reason I left, she was doing to the country what she should have been doing to Denis

Culture is another overused word in relation to footy clubs, it is a buzz word borrowed from other work environments 

22 guys are given the tools and instructions to beat an opposition, whether they decide to use or follow them correctly is whether they win or not

Nathan Jones followed his instructions to the letter but maybe 15 others didn't, no matter his leadership qualities, he was unable ti change that, even by example

 

Edited by Satyriconhome

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5 minutes ago, ProDee said:

This says a lot, chap.  I don't think you understand football.  And possibly life. 

I understand life, don't put anybody on a pedestal just because they have a title, besides which, when push comes to shove it's every man for himself, on and off the footy field

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Back on topic:

Goody has rolled the dice with his gameplan.  He seems to be well regarded internally.  He needs time.  Clarko looked gone, and then the hawks turned the corner.  Same at the cats.  

We played poorly.  We now need to see the response.  I will back him.  He has until the end of next year.  Need to see development, but it still seems too early to hang him out to dry. We are not the Bummers

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7 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Thatcher, reason I left, she was doing to the country what she should have been doing to Denis

Culture is another overused word in relation to footy clubs, it is a buzz word borrowed from other work environments 

22 guys are given the tools and instructions to beat an opposition, whether they decide to use or follow them correctly is whether they win or not

Nathan Jones followed his instructions to the letter but maybe 15 others didn't, no matter his leadership qualities, he was unable ti change that, even by example

 

Why have a captain then?  Your above post makes no sense.  Football clubs constantly talk about how important leadership and culture is.  You're way, way off the mark.

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