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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Hogan2014 said:

Hardwick was constantly question on his coaching ability....

Took him 8 seasons to win a flag.....

Didn't win any finals prior to 2017...

Every right to have sacked him after 2016 season

Season Team Games W L D W % LP LT
Career totals 182 92 88 2 51.1%  
2010 Richmond 22 6 16 0 27.3% 15 16
2011 Richmond 22 8 13 1 38.6% 12 17
2012 Richmond 22 10 11 1 47.7% 12 18
2013 Richmond 23 15 8 0 65.2% 5 18
2014 Richmond 23 12 11 0 52.2% 8 18
2015 Richmond 23 15 8 0 65.2% 5 18
2016 Richmond 22 8 14 0 36.4% 13 18
2017 Richmond 25 18 7 0 72.0% 3 18

 

Not sure that is a valid comparison.

That aside Roos did the 'heavy lifting' for 3 years (Goodwin was at the club for the last 2).  Hardwick had to do his own 'heavy lifting' for 3 years ie 2010 to 2012.

Goodwin inherited a team of talented youngsters with a lot of the old guard already culled.  While he wasn't in charge on game day, he certainly took a lot of training, developed relationships, chose his coaches while still an assistant to Roos, was involved in list management and practiced his 'zone' based game plan in 2016 (eg vs StKilda, vs Port in NT). 

So imho the more correct comparison would be Hardwick from 2013 with Goodwin from 2016.  

Or compare Goodwin's first two years with Beveridge's first two years.  At the Bulldogs Beveridge inherited a team at the same level as Goodwin has and where Macca like Roos, had done the heavy lifting.   Beveridge won a premiership in his second year.   

Edited by Lucifer's Hero
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32 minutes ago, america de cali said:

The Bailey rebuild from 2008 was, 3, 4, 8.5, 8.5 before the meltdown. Performances like yesterday are just as likely to indicate a meltdown rather than a hiccup. Does nothing for confidence of continued linear improvement. Glaring holes in leadership and attitude seem no different to 2010. There are small mountains and big mountains. Whether we reached the peak or not time will tell. 

Yep. This club can’t cope with hard work on field. 

I am sure PJ and Bartlett are working their rings off, but with the players dishing up poo like yesterday it will amount to very little. 

THE WHOLE CLUB HAS TO WORK TOGETHER or just forget it

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4 hours ago, timbo said:

With acceptance of insipid games like that, we will be here in 40 years still talking about building a young team, still learning the game, this will be a "lesson". It's been 12 years of lessons.

Just say nope to this rubbish.

Goodwin needs to go. I think the Manangatang 3rds coach might've been handier on Sunday.

Tend to agree; this debacle started long ago, reflected in the alleged 'game plan education' process of  glaringly continuous misinterpretation - and across this short season of puzzling team selections, so far.

With an almost full list of fit players - except a skilful yet injured handful who cannot be held responsible for our missed opportunities or for our current need of salvation -  we should now have four wins and be building indelible strength for the rest of the season. We did not start last season or this season to result in such a disappointing situation that we currently encounter and which, unfortunately, we are expected or assumed to tolerate.  

Instructions, points of foci, method and structure (all coaching concerns) are in disarray. Not even the message is getting through yet we are not manned by idiots, onfield. 

Hawthorn played well, yes. We played better than Hawthorn in the opening term. Somehow the means disappeared after the quarter time address. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Tend to agree; this debacle started long ago, reflected in the alleged 'game plan education' process of  glaringly continuous misinterpretation - and across this short season of puzzling team selections, so far.

With an almost full list of fit players - except a skilful yet injured handful who cannot be held responsible for our missed opportunities or for our current need of salvation -  we should now have four wins and be building indelible strength for the rest of the season. We did not start last season or this season to result in such a disappointing situation that we currently encounter and which, unfortunately, we are expected or assumed to tolerate.  

Instructions, points of foci, method and structure (all coaching concerns) are in disarray. Not even the message is getting through yet we are not manned by idiots, onfield. 

Hawthorn played well, yes. We played better than Hawthorn in the opening term. Somehow the means disappeared after the quarter time address. 

 

Work ethic is still pitiful

close enough is still good enough inside the Football Dept 

we need Putin on staff

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2 hours ago, ProDee said:

This is our third list rebuild since 2007.  It started at the 2013 draft.  We are just over 4 years into a total rebuild.  In 2013 we came off a 2 win/54% season where we lost 11 games by 60 points or more.

The build has gone 4 wins, 7 wins, 10 wins, 12 wins.  It's tracking.  yesterday was a setback.

Ultimately, it's up to you how you process it.  You're in charge of your emotions.

I do think we really miss Viney.  The players walk taller when he's with them.

2013 was 5 years ago. If by the 5th year you're not playing finals football, you're looking at another mini rebuild. This is the harsh reality. Yes even Richmond had their 70 point loss last year. But that was off the back of 5 wins to start the year and some very strong wins. They also ended the year strongly.

I suspect 8th place will need 13 wins to make it this year. If we can't get there, that's regression and Goodwin should go. We're not like Richmond where we can just afford to wait for a coach to find his comfort zone. 2018 thus far is eerily similar to 2011. I am worried the wheels will fall off. I can just smell a 100+ point belting. And you can damn well bet Richmond will go in for the kill next Tuesday. Prepare yourself. 

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10 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Work ethic is still pitiful

close enough is still good enough inside the Football Dept 

we need Putin on staff

Excellent, Comrade. Pass the Wodka. 

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I remember meeting a doctor 15 years (or so) ago at The Malvern Hotel.  He knew my Brother and was a mad Dees supporter, so we discussed the club and players over a few beers.

When it came to footy, a game he loved, he was a gene short of a moron.  He had no clue.  It was a timely reminder that many smart professionals become irrational simpletons when it comes to discussing footy. 

He's probably posting on this thread.

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2 hours ago, ProDee said:

This is our third list rebuild since 2007.  It started at the 2013 draft.  We are just over 4 years into a total rebuild.  In 2013 we came off a 2 win/54% season where we lost 11 games by 60 points or more.

The build has gone 4 wins, 7 wins, 10 wins, 12 wins.  It's tracking.  yesterday was a setback.

Ultimately, it's up to you how you process it.  You're in charge of your emotions.

I do think we really miss Viney.  The players walk taller when he's with them.

It is not up to any poster on this site to process it - as if it was an illness that you declare evident upon them.

Grow up, pal - pass judgement elsewhere. The processing by the Club and its machinations are well and truly overdue. A supporter, in as many words has the absolute right to express that thought.

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Posted (edited)

I remember only a few years ago when the bookies paid out on Richmond not winning a game during the season.

Edited by mauriesy

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Deemania since 56 said:

It is not up to any poster on this site to process it.

 

Yes, it is, fella.  You're the one in control of your emotions.  

Edited by Grapeviney

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I shouldn't be surprised, but I am simply shocked at the massive over-reaction on this forum.

It only confirms that people in general are mindless sheep.

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41 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I remember meeting a doctor 15 years (or so) ago at The Malvern Hotel.  He knew my Brother and was a mad Dees supporter, so we discussed the club and players over a few beers.

When it came to footy, a game he loved, he was a gene short of a moron.  He had no clue.  It was a timely reminder that many smart professionals become irrational simpletons when it comes to discussing footy. 

He's probably posting on this thread.

I never met a doctor who hung out at a pub. Must have been a real quack.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Mach5 said:

I shouldn't be surprised, but I am simply shocked at the massive over-reaction on this forum.

It only confirms that people in general are mindless sheep.

Did you dig that post up from 2011? Sounds like one of your old gems.

Edited by america de cali
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Doesn't Goodwin deserve the chance to show he is the right guy for the job?  He has been in charge for less than 30 games and we're already writing him off?

Yes, we should have made finals last year, but he still took us from 10 wins to 12.  An incompetent coach can't do that.  He oversaw and was integral to the improvement (with the rest of the coaching team of course) in many players, coached us to victories in states where we hadn't won in over a decade, and has had many players re-sign with the club and express their enjoyment of playing under him as coach.

So after a shocker of a performance yesterday, why are we so quick to write him off?  Doesn't he deserve the opportunity to respond, and to show us that he can in fact coach, make the changes required and take us to the finals appearances we all crave?

I get the angst from yesterday.  What I don't get is how quick we are to rubbish someone who has done some real positive things in his short time at the club.  Yes, he needs to make some changes to the side which includes utilizing Lever correctly, getting guys like Hibberd and Jetta back to their best form and making sure we're more efficient going forward.  But he deserves the chance to do this and to prove that he is, in fact, the right man for the job.

I can't wait to see the response from all involved at the club next Tuesday night.  I'm backing them in for a very much improved performance.

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A comparison.

Geelong and Bomber Thompson are a good case study for the Dees.

In 2000 Thompson took over a team that had won 10 games the year before.  Goody also inherited a team that had won 10 games the year before.  Some of the young talent on Thompson’s list in that first year included Joel Corey, Matthew Scarlett, Corey Enright, Darren Milburn, David Wojcinski, Cameron Ling, Paul Chapman, Tom Harley, and Cameron Mooney.  Those nine formed the initial nucleus of his premiership teams.  Ablett, Hawkins, Bartel Selwood, Ottens, Kelly, Stevie J, and Mackie were added over the next few years to provide a magnificent group of 17 or so players.   There were others like Stokes, Rooke, Hunt, and Lonergan who added to the quality.

Thompson's early years with a really talented bunch fascinate me and it wasn’t all plain sailing.  Thompson won half a game more than Goodwin in his first year to finish on 12.5 wins and make finals.  Year two (2001) they went backwards and won 9.  They improved a bit in year three and won 11, but finals still eluded them.  Year 4 they went backwards again and won just the 7.5 games to finish 12th.  By now their fans are in full meltdown.  Imagine Demonland.  Haha.  "The players are crap and after 4 years in the top job Thompson can’t coach.  He must go."

But they bounce back to win 15 games in 2004 (year 5) and they make top 4.  They won one final but lost two, so there’s still work to do.  Year six and they lose ground again, but still win 12 games to make finals.  They beat the Dees in an elimination final but lose the following week.

Year seven and it hits the fan - again.  They regress to 10.5 wins and miss the finals.  In round 8 they lost to Collingwood by 102 points and they lost to Adelaide by 92 points in round 13.  15 of their magnificent 17 play games in 2006 with Hawkins and Selwood joining the club at the end of that year.  Thompson famously hangs on to his job by a thread.

His win/loss record after 7 years and 159 games was exactly 50%.

The rest is history.  But importantly, he had a lieutenant in Brendan McCartney, who was there to witness the entire 11 year journey under Thompson.  I reckon it's very important that his experience once again sits alongside a rookie coach with a talented yet lacking list.

List builds can take time and there’ll be setbacks along the way.  We’re 4 years and 4 games into the current full rebuild.  More importantly, Goodwin is 26 games into his coaching career.  Hopefully, all and sundry at the club learn a lot from that loss.  Coaches and teams learn far more from losses than they do wins.  I know we’ve had plenty of practice at that, but this is (predominantly) a new group, even though supporters have far longer memories.  Someone even started referencing the Bailey years, which is utterly irrelevant to the here and now.

I’ll finish by saying of course there are no guarantees that we’ll emulate Geelong, or even win one flag with this group.  I know that.  But I’m not going to let one very bad loss completely override rational thought.  We will have some good wins this year and I reckon Viney, Oliver, Salem, Petracca, Gawn, Hogan, Lever, Hunt, Weideman, McDonald, Fritsch, Brayshaw, Tyson, Jetta, and who knows who else that is yet to play (Petty), or I’ve overlooked, can form the basis of a group that regularly play finals.  But we're not immune from a bumpy ride, as Geelong fans experienced 12-15 years ago.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, ProDee said:

A comparison.

Geelong and Bomber Thompson are a good case study for the Dees.

In 2000 Thompson took over a team that had won 10 games the year before.  Goody also inherited a team that had won 10 games the year before.  Some of the young talent on Thompson’s list in that first year included Joel Corey, Matthew Scarlett, Corey Enright, Darren Milburn, David Wojcinski, Cameron Ling, Paul Chapman, Tom Harley, and Cameron Mooney.  Those nine formed the initial nucleus of his premiership teams.  Ablett, Hawkins, Bartel Selwood, Ottens, Kelly, Stevie J, and Mackie were added over the next few years to provide a magnificent group of 17 or so players.   There were others like Stokes, Rooke, Hunt, and Lonergan who added to the quality.

Thompson's early years with a really talented bunch fascinate me and it wasn’t all plain sailing.  Thompson won half a game more than Goodwin in his first year to finish on 12.5 wins and make finals.  Year two (2001) they went backwards and won 9.  They improved a bit in year three and won 11, but finals still eluded them.  Year 4 they went backwards again and won just the 7.5 games to finish 12th.  By now their fans are in full meltdown.  Imagine Demonland.  Haha.  "The players are crap and after 4 years in the top job Thompson can’t coach.  He must go."

But they bounce back to win 15 games in 2004 (year 5) and they make top 4.  They won one final but lost two, so there’s still work to do.  Year six and they lose ground again, but still win 12 games to make finals.  They beat the Dees in an elimination final but lose the following week.

Year seven and it hits the fan - again.  They regress to 10.5 wins and miss the finals.  In round 8 they lost to Collingwood by 102 points and they lost to Adelaide by 92 points in round 13.  15 of their magnificent 17 play games in 2006 with Hawkins and Selwood joining the club at the end of that year.  Thompson famously hangs on to his job by a thread.

His win/loss record after 7 years and 159 games was exactly 50%.

The rest is history.  But importantly, he had a lieutenant in Brendan McCartney, who was there to witness the entire 11 year journey under Thompson.  I reckon it's very important that his experience once again sits alongside a rookie coach with a talented yet lacking list.

List builds can take time and there’ll be setbacks along the way.  We’re 4 years and 4 games into the current full rebuild.  More importantly, Goodwin is 26 games into his coaching career.  Hopefully, all and sundry at the club learn a lot from that loss.  Coaches and teams learn far more from losses than they do wins.  I know we’ve had plenty of practice at that, but this is (predominantly) a new group, even though supporters have far longer memories.  Someone even started referencing the Bailey years, which is utterly irrelevant to the here and now.

I’ll finish by saying of course there are no guarantees that we’ll emulate Geelong, or even win one flag with this group.  I know that.  But I’m not going to let one very bad loss completely override rational thought.  We will have some good wins this year and I reckon Viney, Oliver, Salem, Petracca, Gawn, Hogan, Lever, Hunt, Weideman, McDonald, Fritsch, Brayshaw, Tyson, Jetta, and who knows who else that is yet to play (Petty), or I’ve overlooked, can form the basis of a group that regularly play finals.  But we're not immune from a bumpy ride, as Geelong fans experienced 12-15 years ago.

You forgot to mention the contributions of The Weapon, Dank and perhaps some of Bombers other shady mates to Geelongs almost superhuman transformation. And if was a fairytale, they just don’t happen that often or to every club.

Edited by america de cali

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6 hours ago, SFebey said:

No really, there have been alarming patches in all 4 games so far. Q2 v Cats, Q3 v Lions, Q1 v North and it blew apart finally yesterday.

It worked in the first 3 games coz we managed to steady the ship by listening to the leaders and coaches, yesterday 3/4 of the team, including a couple of leaders were off the ship whilst it was listing and then watched it sink

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2 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

It worked in the first 3 games coz we managed to steady the ship by listening to the leaders and coaches, yesterday 3/4 of the team, including a couple of leaders were off the ship whilst it was listing and then watched it sink

You’ll probably tell me otherwise because McCartney told you differently but I feel we really lack on-field leadership. Hopefully this changes when Viney and TMac are back. 

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28 minutes ago, america de cali said:

And if was a fairytale, they just don’t happen that often or to every club.

Richmond/Hardwick are a similar story.

It's remarkable how Premiership coaches only emerge as such when they have a Premiership team.

Funny that. Could it be that ... the coach is only as good as the players at his disposal?

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Don't really care about comparisions with other clubs or coaches.

One Goal in 3 quarters,   Thats as shite full of a day as I can remember in 50 years of active participation

of this club.   If 186 meant anything so should this !  Players and coaches should apologise to those who watched.

Pathetic does not come close,  There needs to be a total 180 degree change against the Tigers, If we are not up for Tuesday night Goodwin should hand over, and we start with a new coach .

 If they want to pretend to coach or play then I will pretend to watch and care.

It needs to improve some what NOW, not in 6 weeks when Viney and TMac are back !

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Richmond/Hardwick are a similar story.

It's remarkable how Premiership coaches only emerge as such when they have a Premiership team.

Funny that. Could it be that ... the coach is only as good as the players at his disposal?

The common denominator between Geelong (Thompson and Scott) and Richmond is Neil Balme - the guy is a genius. 

No way of knowing but I firmly believe Thompson, Scott and Hardwick would not have been Premiership coaches without him.

Unfortunately, we do not have a Neil Balme type position at our club.  His is a similar position to that held by Fagan overseeing all of Clarkson's flags.  Yes, we have Macca and Mahoney but they don't perform the role of a Fagan or Balme.

Goodwin is a good coach but is floundering.  He could do with a Neil Balme type to mentor, question and guide him. 

Edit:  am a huge fan of both Macca and Mahoney so no criticism of them implied - they just have a different role to Balme and Fagan.

Edited by Lucifer's Hero

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Goodwin's going nowhere. he's as a young coach with a solid mentor who is in charge of a talented but still raw list. To be calling for his head now is just ludicrous. Yes he was outcoached and yes he seemed stuck to a plan that was failing. But take a look at some of the player mistakes that led to goals yesterday. That's simply young players doing what young players do, make mistakes. 

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Posted (edited)

If he doesn’t win the Grand Final I want him gone by tomorrow..! 

He’s a young coach who took over a young team who still has a Win/Loss record in the positive. He’s still learning and as frustrating as it is being a supporter, he needs to be given more time. 

Edited by Ethan Tremblay
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Which is a worry.
Goodwin seems to do his learning by making poor decisions.

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3 minutes ago, Fork 'em said:

Which is a worry.
Goodwin seems to do his learning by making poor decisions.

The way I see it, he is making poor decisions but I am not sure he is learning.

 

Though he has not played Weideman yet this year, so maybe he is.

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