Post Match Discussion - Round 3

[jnrmac 18,914]

21 minutes ago, A F said:

I'm glad we got the win and 6 and a bit goals felt like a fair margin.

I felt the umpiring was incredibly soft both ways today. However, many of the free kicks were technically there.

Someone asked why Fritsch was penalised after marking in the goal square late on. Kent pulled down the North player. Soft, but there.

Some general comments from today...

We still have a real problem with pressure acts in our offensive 50. Today we laid a lot more tackles inside 50 than the opposition, which was good, but this aspect of our game was noticeably absent in the first quarter yet again. North waltzed out of there far too easily.

Fritsch did some lovely things. He's so clean and a beautiful user, but he was one that failed to lay a tackle. Simply not good enough for a half forward in the modern game. Melksham managed 1 tackle. As did Kent. As did Hogan (who rarely ever lays tackles). Petracca managed 2. That's slightly insane. 5 of our 8-10 forwards laid a total of 5 tackles between them.

We are going to get crucified against decent opposition if we fail to keep the ball inside our forward 50. North were pretty much scoring with every second inside 50 and they're not the first team to do that against us. It's the one glaring area of our game at the moment and it's an area that Geelong exploited heavily. I expect Hawthorn will try to do the same next week.

I'm no fan of Bugg and believe he's close to the level of a VFA player at times, but at least he managed 3 tackles. On that alone, he'll get picked again next week. His goals were a bonus, but like Brown's, came mostly from free kicks. That missed set shot from 15 metres out directly in front was not good enough.

Meanwhile, Kent played the sort of game we've seen from him quite often over the journey. He got the ball in dangerous areas quite a bit, but his kicking prevented him from being a really damaging player - he really should have had 4 or 5. However, his biggest weakness is his lack of tackle pressure. This has to change if he's going to keep guys like Hannan out of the team. I almost wonder whether it'd be worth giving him a run on the ball more often, to ensure that he has to be physical.

In the ruck, I thought Gawn killed Goldstein, but gee, he plays some dumb footy at times. His tapping to the outside at certain stoppages (where our players weren't and were much slower) was mindboggling and his free kick(s) against were all there IMO. 

Our ability to generate inside 50s continues to be really positive though. Our ball use lets us down on occasion, but there were signs today that things might be on the improve with forward entries. Basically, we started to kick the ball to the advantage of our forwards. This is a building block. I hope we can build on this next week.

Salem's first quarter and a bit was really impressive. He won a bunch of clearances, won a lot of the ball and used it well. This was important early, as Oliver was receiving the tight tag. Salem faded out of the game and I couldn't work out whether it was due to his work rate or whether they paid him more respect (or both). Either way, building blocks for Salo too.

Jesse is getting midfield numbers and now looks comfortable playing anywhere. It was an interesting game from him, because playing him through the midfield (at times) meant we were playing a very small and mobile forwardline. Anyway, a really good game from Jesse and pity he couldn't get on the scoreboard a little more.

As for our leadership, I still have large question marks over Lewis, Jones and Vince. Jones directly gave away two goals in the second half, but fortunately today, each time he was able to atone for his errors (once in setting up Jeffy and then kicking one of his own). Lewis rarely keeps his feet anymore and this will cost us. And Vince is still too fancy with his dinky little kicks in defensive 50 that threaten to halt or swing momentum at critical moments. This is something that we must monitor and I think Viney's inclusion can't come quickly enough.

Finally, the biggest plus for us today was being able to kick 18 goals with a small, mobile set up and without Oliver dominating the game (although his two goals were all class - his second was just as good as any A grade midfield gun in the league could produce when resting forward). And Gawn was the most influential player on the ground and having him near the top of his game makes us very dangerous.

So there's still a heap of improvement left in this team, which is exciting. Hawthorn are going to be a massive test and we'll need to play our absolute best footy to take care of them. If we play four quarters for the first time this year, we'll beat them. I couldn't think of anything better as I continue my press to convert my wife from Hawthorn to Melbourne.

 

I'm not sure you understand what constitutes a tackle stat..all of the above applied solid fwd pressure..

[DeeSpencer 23,061]

5 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

Spot on, DS.

I'm a Bugg fan, but I think it's clear now that if we are to replace him it needs to be someone who is willing to do the same things he does, only better.  Hannan isn't the one for that role at the moment, Spargo probably needs a little VFL time to get going and who knows where JKH sits.  Buggy, as you say, provides excellent pressure, he knows how to lead and move to the right spots and he has a knack of hitting the scoreboard, something he did really well today.

It's clear that we play our best footy when we get great pressure from our medium and small forwards, and Bugg is part of that right now, for better or worse.

Sometimes Bugg will hit the figurative scoreboard and sometimes he'll miss the goals by so much he'll hit the literal scoreboard on the half forward flank. The thing I like about him being in the team is it sends a message to the forwards that the coaches aren't messing around when it comes to work rate, pressure and contesting.

If Spargo is to make it he'll play good VFL footy from day 1. Might be a while until he plays AFL but he should be a good VFL player and pressing his case early. I don't see JKH as the right replacement for Bugg. Harley Balic could be an option, no where near the same fitness but he has agility to tackle and good size. Really Pedersen could come back if he's leading up and bashing and crashing like he does when he's at his best. Gus Brayshaw was pretty much doing the Bugg role in his first season, I wonder if they'll give him a go forward again.

[Clayton van Oliver 1,659]

5 hours ago, Jaded said:

Now the real question is, do I spend the next 8 hours and 45 minutes on the plane watching the replay 3 times, or do I sleep because I have 7 straight days of work ahead? 

I've spent a day in Bruges, on my 3rd viewing now. No excuses

[Clayton van Oliver 1,659]

About 12 mins to go on the clock in the first, check out ANB's handball-ground pass to Tracc. Just brilliant. It's something I've noticed this year. The lads do a whole lot of brilliant but sometime too cute things - handballs over the head, dribble passes, tap-ons. We're going to click really soon and these things will be more brilliance less too-cuteness. I'm loving it. [censored] me, we actually have a team.

[Skuit 9,112]

8 hours ago, Deeoldfart said:

Delicious, but cask red would probably have tasted ok tonight.

Can confirm.

Though living in Europe it would be more accurate to say that it tasted ok this morning.

[Deemania since 56 6,122]

8 hours ago, CHF said:

Aft er the 4 goal start we gave them we out scored them 123 to 62.

I love that fact.

Yep., good to recover as we did but for all the Dees' spectators around me in the Northern Stand -  balanced,  reserved, experienced and mature people -  the first Qtr umpiring was atrocious as North were "given" three highly questionable frees in front of goal, keeping them in the game at that early point.  Brown is a stager of great skill and in the first order.  He plays for frees all game.  He gets frees,  all game. This 'advantage' for North was a considerable low-light of the game and a very noticeable hurdle affecting the expected justice administration by umpires of the rules of the game.  It persisted into the 2nd Qtr until there was limited credibility in any umpiring decisions left and at that point,  the excesses of the umpires ceased,  and the Dees came from well behind to stake their interest in proceedings. It reminds us all that at times,  umpires regard themselves as pre-race weight handicappers to enhance the excitement of the moment and to even-up their perceived differentials between the combatants. Too often, the public perception is that umpires settle into '... Making correct calls... '  as payback for early indiscretions, costly exaggerations and blind-eyed favouritism. 

[Salems Lot 2,363]

8 hours ago, Earl Hood said:

Re our use of two extra players running off the back of the square at centre bounces, Luke Ball on 774 was non plussed. He said we were winning the centre clearances 2 to 1 yet we’re then kicking into an out numbered forward set up, allowing Daws to look good. If you are dominating clearances why not man up in the forward line. Not sure how often the two extras running off half back had an impact at centre bounces though. 

And if Hogan is going to play up the field we need another tall up forward. And did I hear correctly that Harmes and Trac were pinch hitting in the ruck? Bring back Pedo I think until TMac is fit. 

We scored our first goal directly from a centre bounce Harmes hit out.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

6 hours ago, A F said:

Someone asked why Fritsch was penalised after marking in the goal square late on. Kent pulled down the North player. Soft, but there.

No he didn’t.

It wasn’t just the softness of the free kicks but the inconsistency of the umpires to pay them the other way, especially against Brown.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Clint Bizkit

[Demonland 64,416]

 

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

41 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

No he didn’t.

it wasn’t just the softness of the free kicks but the inconsistency of the umpires to pay them the other way, especially against Brown.

Spot on

 

I've watched a number of times. No pull. The bloke falls over 

 

[Wiseblood 24,636]

5 hours ago, A F said:

I'm glad we got the win and 6 and a bit goals felt like a fair margin.

I felt the umpiring was incredibly soft both ways today. However, many of the free kicks were technically there.

Someone asked why Fritsch was penalised after marking in the goal square late on. Kent pulled down the North player. Soft, but there.

Some general comments from today...

We still have a real problem with pressure acts in our offensive 50. Today we laid a lot more tackles inside 50 than the opposition, which was good, but this aspect of our game was noticeably absent in the first quarter yet again. North waltzed out of there far too easily.

Fritsch did some lovely things. He's so clean and a beautiful user, but he was one that failed to lay a tackle. Simply not good enough for a half forward in the modern game. Melksham managed 1 tackle. As did Kent. As did Hogan (who rarely ever lays tackles). Petracca managed 2. That's slightly insane. 5 of our 8-10 forwards laid a total of 5 tackles between them.

We are going to get crucified against decent opposition if we fail to keep the ball inside our forward 50. North were pretty much scoring with every second inside 50 and they're not the first team to do that against us. It's the one glaring area of our game at the moment and it's an area that Geelong exploited heavily. I expect Hawthorn will try to do the same next week.

I'm no fan of Bugg and believe he's close to the level of a VFA player at times, but at least he managed 3 tackles. On that alone, he'll get picked again next week. His goals were a bonus, but like Brown's, came mostly from free kicks. That missed set shot from 15 metres out directly in front was not good enough.

Meanwhile, Kent played the sort of game we've seen from him quite often over the journey. He got the ball in dangerous areas quite a bit, but his kicking prevented him from being a really damaging player - he really should have had 4 or 5. However, his biggest weakness is his lack of tackle pressure. This has to change if he's going to keep guys like Hannan out of the team. I almost wonder whether it'd be worth giving him a run on the ball more often, to ensure that he has to be physical.

In the ruck, I thought Gawn killed Goldstein, but gee, he plays some dumb footy at times. His tapping to the outside at certain stoppages (where our players weren't and were much slower) was mindboggling and his free kick(s) against were all there IMO. 

Our ability to generate inside 50s continues to be really positive though. Our ball use lets us down on occasion, but there were signs today that things might be on the improve with forward entries. Basically, we started to kick the ball to the advantage of our forwards. This is a building block. I hope we can build on this next week.

Salem's first quarter and a bit was really impressive. He won a bunch of clearances, won a lot of the ball and used it well. This was important early, as Oliver was receiving the tight tag. Salem faded out of the game and I couldn't work out whether it was due to his work rate or whether they paid him more respect (or both). Either way, building blocks for Salo too.

Jesse is getting midfield numbers and now looks comfortable playing anywhere. It was an interesting game from him, because playing him through the midfield (at times) meant we were playing a very small and mobile forwardline. Anyway, a really good game from Jesse and pity he couldn't get on the scoreboard a little more.

As for our leadership, I still have large question marks over Lewis, Jones and Vince. Jones directly gave away two goals in the second half, but fortunately today, each time he was able to atone for his errors (once in setting up Jeffy and then kicking one of his own). Lewis rarely keeps his feet anymore and this will cost us. And Vince is still too fancy with his dinky little kicks in defensive 50 that threaten to halt or swing momentum at critical moments. This is something that we must monitor and I think Viney's inclusion can't come quickly enough.

Finally, the biggest plus for us today was being able to kick 18 goals with a small, mobile set up and without Oliver dominating the game (although his two goals were all class - his second was just as good as any A grade midfield gun in the league could produce when resting forward). And Gawn was the most influential player on the ground and having him near the top of his game makes us very dangerous.

So there's still a heap of improvement left in this team, which is exciting. Hawthorn are going to be a massive test and we'll need to play our absolute best footy to take care of them. If we play four quarters for the first time this year, we'll beat them. I couldn't think of anything better as I continue my press to convert my wife from Hawthorn to Melbourne.

 

I disagree with a large chunk of this, which I find surprising as I normally agree with you AF. 

Firstly, the Kent free kick was not there. It was an awful decision, and it left even the commentators speechless when the replay was shown. One of many terrible decisions. 

Secondly, pressure cannot just be read in tackles. Our ability to lock the ball in, keep it there and set up the wall was a huge reason why we won the game. Our forwards and mids tackled, harassed, shoved, bumped etc. the opposition and it worked. 

Thirdly, in his first game back, Kent had a ripper. 3 goals, good pressure and some good field kicking contributed massively to the win. He justified his selection big time. 

Lastly, our leadership is what won us the game. Lewis and Jones, in particular, really stood up for us with goals and smart play in the last term when we needed to slow the game down. Apart from one poor kick, Lewis was excellent with ball in hand while Jones put in a huge shift on the midfield for us. 

Take away a poor 15 opening minutes and we absolutely smashed them. It bodes well for the season ahead. 

[Gator 16,891]

I've been pretty positive this year, however, I left the game a little disappointed.  It was a bit of a reality check for me.  We need to get a lot better if we're going to be a serious challenger in 2018.  We have far too many ordinary players.

Our skill level still isn't great and teams still get out the back far too easily, which means our defensive structures still need plenty of work.

The only saving grace is that there are no real standout teams.  All teams have issues and ordinary players.  But we're a fair way off being a really organised unit.  There are way too many holes and our ball movement needs a lot of work.   

That said, I think Viney will make a big difference around the ball when he gets back in.  We miss him around the stoppages.

I know I'm being a little negative and I expect we'll continue to get better and more familiar with the tweaks in the game-plan.  I'm just not sure we've got the personnel to do much this year.  I certainly don't see a top 4 side.

[juzzk1d 1,354]

I said to my friends at half time at the game that Oliver needs to be played and isolated at full forward as he was getting held well by Jacobs. 

Why did it take Goodwin up until 3 minuets left in the last quarter when the game was iced to tactically make this move? As soon as he did as well, he kicked two goals. Baffles me how Goody didn’t proactively do this earlier. 

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

23 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I've been pretty positive this year, however, I left the game a little disappointed.  It was a bit of a reality check for me.  We need to get a lot better if we're going to be a serious challenger in 2018.  We have far too many ordinary players.

Our skill level still isn't great and teams still get out the back far too easily, which means our defensive structures still need plenty of work.

The only saving grace is that there are no real standout teams.  All teams have issues and ordinary players.  But we're a fair way off being a really organised unit.  There are way too many holes and our ball movement needs a lot of work.   

That said, I think Viney will make a big difference around the ball when he gets back in.  We miss him around the stoppages.

I know I'm being a little negative and I expect we'll continue to get better and more familiar with the tweaks in the game-plan.  I'm just not sure we've got the personnel to do much this year.  I certainly don't see a top 4 side.

It will be interesting to see how we go up against the highly-skilled and well drilled Hawks.

If we can sustain the pressure we will be a chance, but I’m prepared to see us get cut up with their excellent field kicking.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Clint Bizkit

[John Crow Batty 8,226]

Um, amazing all the negativity, for me this is the best Melbourne side since early 2000 and something. I have been a cynic and skeptic for many years but I believe we are seriously top four material ATM. Only lost 3 quarters, dominate most play around the ground and score heavily despite inefficiency. Other sides seem to be playing reactive football against us. Trying to exploit our weaknesses rather than their strengths. As I said before what we most lack is killer instinct but the mental demons seem to be fading. Goodwin getting caned by arm chair experts is puzzling me. It’s only his second season and we are rising with a bullet. Hard challenges ahead but I believe we at the stage where we can overcome them.

Edited April 7, 2018 by america de cali

[—coach— 3,466]

1 hour ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

Spot on

 

I've watched a number of times. No pull. The bloke falls over 

 

I was sitting literally 7-8m from that incident in the north cheer squad, not one of the them thought it was a free

[Skuit 9,112]

18 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I've been pretty positive this year, however, I left the game a little disappointed.  It was a bit of a reality check for me.  We need to get a lot better if we're going to be a serious challenger in 2018.  We have far too many ordinary players.

Our skill level still isn't great and teams still get out the back far too easily, which means our defensive structures still need plenty of work.

The only saving grace is that there are no real standout teams.  All teams have issues and ordinary players.  But we're a fair way off being a really organised unit.  There are way too many holes and our ball movement needs a lot of work.   

That said, I think Viney will make a big difference around the ball when he gets back in.  We miss him around the stoppages.

I know I'm being a little negative and I expect we'll continue to get better and more familiar with the tweaks in the game-plan.  I'm just not sure we've got the personnel to do much this year.  I certainly don't see a top 4 side.

I agree for the most part. I'm a generally bullish supporter but I've been a little underwhelmed to date and a tad concerned. It may be that my expectations were too high but a number of our reliable and previously improving players are down or have regressed. And we strike as more disorganised up front and down back than last year - the area where I thought we'd see some telling improvements. 

In saying that, we could well finish the weekend as the highest scoring team across the opening three rounds and our percentage is healthy. And we tend to get our intensity up for better opposition. Our best passages for the year were against Geelong, and at least we've ticked off a couple of our potential bogey matches against poorer opposition. Next three weeks against mid-level teams should provide a better gauge.

[Brownie 5,127]

9 hours ago, david_neitz_is_my_dad said:

 

it seemed like blatant cheating. we need to lodge something with the afl

[binman 37,793]

1 hour ago, Clint Bizkit said:

No he didn’t.

it wasn’t just the softness of the free kicks but the inconsistency of the umpires to pay them the other way, especially against Brown.

And then not giving trac a free in the last when he was nearly dragged down when going for a mark 20 metres out. infuriating. i was right above the kent free. he fid nothing

[spalding 1,116]

2 minutes ago, america de cali said:

Um, amazing all the negativity, for me this is the best Melbourne side since early 2000 and something. I have been a cynic and skeptic for many years but I believe we are seriously top four material ATM. Only lost 3 quarters, dominate most play around the ground and score heavily despite inefficiency. Other sides seem to be playing reactive football against us. Trying to exploit our weaknesses rather than their strengths. As I said before what we most lack is killer instinct but the mental demons seem to be fading. Goodwin getting caned by arm chair experts is puzzling me. It’s only his second season and we are rising with a bullet. 

Exactly - there has been a lot of things that need fixing in the first 3 games. From Goodys presser he and everyone at the club knows it. Yet we have won two games and lost one to a team that will play finals by a kick. A pass mark so far, but the next 3 games will tell us a lot.

as we have seen in the last 2 years you need to win enough games to get in the finals and hope to hit peak form in September. It’s only April so it’s good to bank the wins without playing that well.

we got a lot of improving to do - but let’s enjoy the ride!

[Brownie 5,127]

Johnathan Brown said it was the best game he's seen a ruckman play in the last decade.

Gawn was a beast yesterday. His work rate and effort is beautiful to watch.

If his body holds up this year, he's got to be in the hunt for the brownlow.

Another step forward for our footy club yesterday. A lot of our problems have been above the shoulders. 

[Gator 16,891]

25 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

It will be interesting to see how we go up against the highly-skilled and well drilled Hawks.

If we can sustain the pressure we will be a chance, but I’m prepared to see us get cut up with their excellent field kicking.

For me we still lack a little class in the midfield.

Brayshaw in his 4th year was meant to be that class.  I still think he can be, but it's a little disappointing he's playing in the reserves and not as fit as he could be.

[Dockett 32 1,213]

30 minutes ago, --coach-- said:

I was sitting literally 7-8m from that incident in the north cheer squad, not one of the them thought it was a free

 

29 minutes ago, Brownie said:

it seemed like blatant cheating. we need to lodge something with the afl

A brave ‘highlight’ mark from a young first year player  and one  for the AFL highlight reel showcasing our game, completely ruined by an incompetent decision.

It didn’t but it could have cost the game.

Umpire has to be dropped for sure.

Really poor effort.

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

42 minutes ago, --coach-- said:

I was sitting literally 7-8m from that incident in the north cheer squad, not one of the them thought it was a free

That's nice, but why were you sitting with the North Cheer Squad?

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

49 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

It will be interesting to see how we go up against the highly-skilled and well drilled Hawks.

If our first quarter is anything like it was against against North then Hawthorn will be up by 50 at quarter time.