Jump to content

Discussion on recent allegations about the use of illicit drugs in football is forbidden
  • IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING

    Posting unsubstantiated rumours on this website is strictly forbidden.

    Demonland has made the difficult decision to not permit this platform to be used to discuss & debate the off-field issues relating to the Melbourne Football Club including matters currently being litigated between the Club & former Board members, board elections, the issue of illicit drugs in footy, the culture at the club & the personal issues & allegations against some of our players & officials ...

    We do not take these issues & this decision lightly & of course we believe that these serious matters affecting the club we love & are so passionate about are worthy of discussion & debate & I wish we could provide a place where these matters can be discussed in a civil & respectful manner.

    However these discussions unfortunately invariably devolve into areas that may be defamatory, libelous, spread unsubstantiated rumours & can effect the mental health of those involved. Even discussion & debate of known facts or media reports can lead to finger pointing, blame & personal attacks.

    The repercussion is that these discussions can open this website, it’s owners & it’s users to legal action & may result in this website being forced to shutdown.

    Our moderating team are all volunteers & cannot moderate the forum 24/7 & as a consequence problematic content that contravenes our rules & standards may go unnoticed for some time before it can be removed.

    We reserve the right to delete posts that offend against our above policy & indeed, to ban posters who are repeat offenders or who breach our code of conduct.

    WE HAVE BUILT A FANTASTIC ONLINE COMMUNITY AT DEMONLAND OVER THE PAST 23 YEARS & WE WOULD LIKE TO CONTINUE TO BE ABLE TO DISCUSS THE CLUB WE LOVE & ARE SO PASSIONATE ABOUT.

    Thank you for your continued support & understanding. Go Dees.


TOUGHNESS Versus SKILL


Bobby McKenzie

Recommended Posts

On our lengthy discussion on JW a few posters asked how Norm Smith would have been coaching Jack Watts. Smith coached  teams in our golden years beautifully balanced with toughness and skill.

The tough hard at it guys were Ron Barassi, Peter Marquis, Noel McMahen ( fearsome) Laurie Mithen ( tough and skilful) Clyde Laidlaw and John Lord to name a few.

On the skilled side were  Don Williams, Athol Webb, Ian McLean, Bob McKenzie ,Geoff Tunbridge, Ian Ridley and Ken Melville. Some might argue about Tunbridge as being skilled but was he skilled when shooting for goal on the run! Wobbly old punt kicks but so accurate.  

So basically Jack would fit into the second category and IMO Smithy would want him in his team.

Edited by Bobby McKenzie
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We'll never know. Norm was gifted some magnificent playing lists in the 50s, his time with Fitzroy and later with post Barassi teams it was a different story. Fire and brimstone less effective. Norm's genius with Barassi was finding a unique onfield playing position (ruckrover) where Barassi's eccentric talents could become effective. So I would see Watts becoming some kind of lead up/ decoy forward who the midfield would PASS to. Let the opposition worry when Watts was the go to man or the Norm Smith decoy. Watts would get his bags if 4 and 5 in his good days because Watts is a dead eye dick. Smith would be smart enough to know when Watts was having an off day and move him back to a wing where he could play his link man role setting up the forwards. Good luck to him at his new club and Jesse learn to kick.

Edited by bush demon
Left a bit out
Link to comment
Share on other sites


Ron, a protege of Norm, has often said he doesn't give any plaudits for natural ability.  His attitude is that you didn't earn it, it was gifted to you by your parents.  He wanted players that would make the most of themselves.

Ron was also famously toughest on his most talented players.

I don't think Jack would have made it through half a season under either Norm or Ron.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

Ron, a protege of Norm, has often said he doesn't give any plaudits for natural ability.  His attitude is that you didn't earn it, it was gifted to you by your parents.  He wanted players that would make the most of themselves.

Ron was also famously toughest on his most talented players.

I don't think Jack would have made it through half a season under either Norm or Ron.

David Cordner was a poor mans Jack Watts and was there for all but the first year of Barassi’s tenure.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Skuit said:

I thought there would be a poll. Toughness. As the AFL slowly drifts toward rolling mauls. Can't hurt with skill if you can't win the ball.

The last time AFL looked like becoming a rolling maul (Swans defensive "flood"; Hawks "rolling zone") it got picked apart first by the Cats and to a lesser extent the Dogs by rapid ball movement and precision foot skills. So much so that Clarko saw that this was a far more effective way to play and changed the Hawks style accordingly.

These things can change within the course of a season, and if you get caught out with last year's game style, which other teams have worked hard to counter, you can end up holding a ticket for a bus that left long ago. The trick, as Clarko realised when he had the cattle, is to develop next year's game style.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Akum said:

The last time AFL looked like becoming a rolling maul (Swans defensive "flood"; Hawks "rolling zone") it got picked apart first by the Cats and to a lesser extent the Dogs by rapid ball movement and precision foot skills. So much so that Clarko saw that this was a far more effective way to play and changed the Hawks style accordingly.

These things can change within the course of a season, and if you get caught out with last year's game style, which other teams have worked hard to counter, you can end up holding a ticket for a bus that left long ago. The trick, as Clarko realised when he had the cattle, is to develop next year's game style.

That's all good and fair, except most of what I said was empty platitudes. The Hawks were certainly exceptionally skilled with their kicking, but no one would doubt their toughness for one second. Of course, you would prefer both, but that would make for a rather boring poll.

I personally think our lack of skill is overstated - primarily because Goodwin is attempting what you proscribed; trying to get a step ahead of the game with a super high-risk run-n-carry game-style (which at times oddly strikes me as rugby-league-ish - or maybe more so Ultimate Frisbee). I have no idea if it will work. But it's not Mark Neeld a year behind the curve, and it's exciting and unstoppable when we're on.

I think we're lacking some finishing skill in front as the biggest issue. We're not capitalising enough on our i-50 entries, high press, and momentum. Delivery inside is an issue. And people will naturally point to the Jack trade. But for me, at the risk of making a contentious statement, it's the lack of marking and scrap from our two star KPF's which were the problem last year (when they were on the park, or not having an alternative when they were not available).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Toughness gets you in the conversation both as a player and a team, and skill puts you above your peers.

I know this thread was created to decry to the supposed reason for removing a player, but there is a third driver for players and teams and that is commitment. I will not make any judgement of JW here but another, more powerful, recent event - the Tigers wining the flag.

The commitment that their list (their VFL did some damage too) showed to their defensive frenzy of pressure all over the ground was what won them a flag. There is no toughness or skill required - you just pressure and trust your teammates to do the same.

Commitment to a game plan is too readily overlooked in my opinion and I have been impressed with our best 15-18 players commitment to what Goodwin wants them to do. Less impressed with the execution of those competing for the bottom 6 (Salem, Wagner, Hannan, et al). We are so close to that full devotion, if it clicks next year - we will be top 4.

Edited by rpfc
Misspelled Latin
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Watts was a pea heart, pure and simple.

 

He could have been a very good player, but was soft in the air, tackled with his arms, treated training like it was one big excuse to laugh, showed little to no intensity and yet it was always someone else’s fault.

 

But hey, he was a nice guy....

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


21 hours ago, Rod Grinter Riot Squad said:

Watts was a pea heart, pure and simple.

 

He could have been a very good player, but was soft in the air, tackled with his arms, treated training like it was one big excuse to laugh, showed little to no intensity and yet it was always someone else’s fault.

 

But hey, he was a nice guy....

Wow. That is a fair cook.

Wouldn’t go that far, but would agree that on more than one occasion that his problems tended to be blamed on everyone but Jack.

A bit of levity to proceedings can be beneficial, but there is a time and place. 

You just knew in your guts that the rumor about the Storm blokes having no respect for the Demon players arseing around in the gym probably revolved around Jack.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 21/10/2017 at 2:49 AM, Bobby McKenzie said:

 

So basically Jack would fit into the second category and IMO Smithy would want him in his team.

No he wouldn't.  No coach wanted him, only Port were stupid enough to take the punt.

Lazy, soft, unaccountable, poor trainer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be an effective AFL player you need to reach a good standard for both. Throw in pure physical fitness as a third category. Hell, you could even divide that the same way, into stamina/durability versus athletic ability.

If you were trying to build a metric for 'player value' based on skill v toughness, you wouldn't just add them and compare, you would multiply the two together to get your result.

(Caveat - I fully understand that trying to put standardised metrics on this stuff is absurd, I am just using it to illustrate the relationship)

For example;

Fred Keiserkopf is highly skilled (8/10) but a bit of a damp newspaper (2/10), 8x2 = 16.

Geoff McAverageish is just ok at everything, with 5/5 for both, 5x5 = 25.

So you put McAverageish on the field because his effectiveness overall is a half-again Keiserkopf. But you might still draft Keiserkopf in the hope that you can push that toughness up a bit, because even 3x8 puts him at around the same value.

 

Of course, the most recent big example of a coach trying to recruit and organise their team in separate 'streams' of toughness and skill is Terry Wallace at Richmond. That produced a string of highly skilled and quick draft picks who were never forced to develop their toughness and thus never made it as effective AFL players, and a progression of tough-nut players who could win the ball but frankly there wasn't much point them having it.

I think Goodwin &co have learnt the first part of that lesson, but I still have doubts about the second part.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

Wow. That is a fair cook.

Wouldn’t go that far, but would agree that on more than one occasion that his problems tended to be blamed on everyone but Jack.

A bit of levity to proceedings can be beneficial, but there is a time and place. 

You just knew in your guts that the rumor about the Storm blokes having no respect for the Demon players arseing around in the gym probably revolved around Jack.

It is a fair cook, but I think fair.

 

I must make it clear, he is a genuinely good guy, I will Be forever grateful to him for how wonderful he was with my kids each and every time he saw them. I desperately wanted him to succeed, I just he desperately wanted to succeed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I do know is that there are many people who have great potential. True in life as in sport. But very few make it to the lofty levels that we regard as characterizing greatness.

We have all known kids and young men who have the skill however choose not to utilize it. 

Some consciously choose not to do so because of relationships, alternative careers and interests. Some make an effort but the effort falls short of what is required.

The one's that make it may not be the most gifted but they have a single minded determination to succeed. A focus and determination greater than others.

They work hard. Harder than those who don't make it to the level expected. 

They are tough. That is, they have tough attitudes to what they need to do to succeed. And again, they train hard, train consistently and don't use social life or holidays as an excuse to have a break. Continuity is the key, which can be a problem when continuity is interrupted by injury.  However, their attitude to injury and recovery is just as single-minded and thorough as every other part of their training and preparation.  

They also bring an incredibly high level of competitiveness to competition.

They hate to be beaten and will always get as much out of themselves as they physically and mentally can. Run through walls, run to the point of sickness and collapse. 

They don't accept excuses for themselves.

They are single minded and don't usually need other people including coaches to motivate them.

They are self-starters. 

And at the end of their career they can usually sit back and say "well I gave it everything and have no excuses". 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 21/10/2017 at 7:23 AM, Axis of Bob said:

I think you want toughness and skill.

But the toughness or, more to the point, competitiveness, is a non-negotiable. Every player needs it. You just need to find competitive players that have skill too.

Having skilled players that don't compete is no good.

You have picked the right word: toughness is by some equivalent to thuggery, which is not what we need.  We need good players who are super competitive rather than unskilled thugs or soft hearted gazelles.  If the gazelle is also competitive then all the better  

Goodwin and the recruiting and development team have that challenge: find, develop and maintain the blend. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Demonland Forums  

  • Match Previews, Reports & Articles  

    DEPTH CHARGE by Whispering Jack

    The jubilation on the coach’s face as he danced a celebratory jig by the playing bench after the final siren sounded to record his team’s four-point victory over the Demons when the teams last met, said it all.    On that rainy Friday night at the Adelaide Oval, Ken Hinkley’s young midfield secured much more than four points on offer. The victory over one of the big dogs of the competition after a succession of wins over some of its lesser lights gave his team respect and validation fo

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 5

    TRAINING: Monday 25th March 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers Demon Dynasty & Kev Martin were trackside at Gosch's Paddock today to bring you their observations from training. DEMON DYNASTY'S TRAINING OBSERVATIONS Kade Chandler's left knee heavily strapped. BBB, Spargs & Jake Lever also in rehab group. Jake Bowey solo running separate kicking/sprint/agility drills. Super fine morning / early arvo at Gosch's for the boys to blow out some cobwebs. Choco initially had the light duties / rehab group

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    HIBERNATING by KC from Casey

    When they locked up the rooms for summer at the end of last year’s football season, the rooms gathered cobwebs, the atmosphere became dense and the place developed a sleepy feel. They opened up the rooms to let Casey out to play on Sunday but the team was still hibernating and they missed the bulk of the opening quarter. By the time they worked out it was game on, their opponents from Box Hill had accumulated five goals and, if the game wasn’t over, it might as well have been. For a se

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Casey Articles

    A FORK IN THE HAWK by George on the Outer

    For too long in the past, Demon fans became habitually sick and tired of watching the Hawks hand out thrashings to their side. But Melbourne’s empahtic 55-point win at the MCG on Saturday has truly put a fork in the Hawk and turned that history well and truly on its head. The Demons have now won nine of their last ten encounters with the other result, a draw.     And like a fork, it was the multi-pronged options that Melbourne had all across the ground.  It certainly helped that Hawthorn

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Reports 8

    PREGAME: Rd 03 vs Port Adelaide

    The Demons head on the road for the next 2 weeks as they travel to Adelaide to play Port on Saturday and then have a 5 Day break before facing the Crows in the Gather Round. With injuries to May and Lever who comes in and who goes out?

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 262

    PODCAST: Rd 02 vs Hawthorn

    The Demonland Podcast will air LIVE on Monday, 25th March @ 8:30pm. Join George, Binman & I as we analyse the Demons victory at the MCG against the Hawks in the Round 02. You questions and comments are a huge part of our podcast so please post anything you want to ask or say below and we'll give you a shout out on the show. If you would like to leave us a voicemail please call 03 9016 3666 and don't worry no body answers so you don't have to talk to a human. Listen & Chat

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 46

    VOTES: Rd 02 vs Hawthorn

    Last week Steven May took the lead in the Demonland Player of the Year Award from Jack Viney. Clayton Oliver & Max Gawn round out the Top 4. Your votes for the win/loss against/to the Hawks. 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 50

    POSTGAME: Rd 02 vs Hawthorn

    The Demons cruised to an easy 55 point win over the Hawks at the MCG but but paid a heavy toll on the injury front with Steven May & Jake Lever possibly sidelined for a number of weeks.

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 357

    GAMEDAY: Rd 02 vs Hawthorn

    It's Game Day and after mixed results in the first two weeks of the season the Demons have the opportunity to capitalise on their good form last week when they take on the Hawks at the MCG today.

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 437
  • Tell a friend

    Love Demonland? Tell a friend!
  • Podcast 

  • Podcast 

  • Podcast Stream 


    Open Stream in
    New Window
        TuneIn    Opens in New Tab
  • Support Demonland  



  • 2021 Premiership  

  • Social Media 

  • Non MFC Games  

    NON-MFC: Round 03

    Discussion of all the other games that don't involve the Demons in Round 03 ... READ MORE

    Demonland | Round 03

  • Match Preview      

    DEPTH CHARGE by Whispering Jack

    The jubilation on the coach’s face as he danced a celebratory jig by the playing bench after the final siren sounded to record his team’s four-point victory over the Demons when the teams last met, said it all ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 27

  • Latest Podcast      

    PODCAST: Rd 02 vs Hawthorn

    The boys dissected the clinical thrashing of Hawks praising the immense performance of Christian Petracca whilst lamenting the injury toll to our defensive unit ... LISTEN

    Demonland | March 26

  • Training  

    Monday, 25th March 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers Demon Dynasty & Kev Martin were trackside at Gosch's Paddock today to bring you their observations from training ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 25

  • Casey Report      

    HIBERNATING by KC from Casey

    When they locked up the rooms for summer at the end of last year’s football season, the rooms gathered cobwebs, the atmosphere became dense and the place developed a sleepy feel. They opened up the rooms to let Casey out to play on Sunday but the team was still hibernating and they missed the bulk of the opening quarter ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 25

  • PreGame      

    PREGAME: Rd 03 vs Port Adelaide

    The Demons head out on the road for the next 2 weeks as they travel to Adelaide to play Port on Saturday and then have a 5 Day break before facing the Crows in Gather Round. With injuries to May and Lever who comes in and who goes out? ...READ MORE

    Demonland | March 28

  • Match Report      

    A FORK IN THE HAWK by George on the Outer

    For too long in the past, Demon fans became habitually sick and tired of watching the Hawks hand out thrashings to their side. But Melbourne’s empahtic 55-point win at the MCG on Saturday has truly put a fork in the Hawk and turned that history well and truly on its head ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 23

  • Post Game      

    POSTGAME: Rd 02 vs Hawthorn

    The Demons cruised to an easy 55 point win over the Hawks at the MCG but but paid a heavy toll on the injury front with Steven May & Jake Lever possibly sidelined for a number of weeks ...READ MORE

    Demonland | March 23

  • Votes      

    VOTES: Rd 02 vs Hawthorn

    Last week Steven May took the lead in the Demonland Player of the Year Award from Jack Viney. Clayton Oliver & Max Gawn round out the Top 4. Your votes for the win/loss against/to the Hawks. 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 ...READ MORE

    Demonland | March 23

  • Game Day      

    GAMEDAY: Round 02 vs Hawthorn

    It's Game Day and after mixed results in the first two weeks of the season the Demons have the opportunity to capitalise on their good form last week when they take on the Hawks at the MCG today ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 23

  • Training  

    Friday, 22nd March 2024

    Demonland Trackwatcher Kev Martin and I attended the Captain's Run at Gosch's Paddock on this lovely sunny morning to bring you the following observations from the training session ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 22

  • Training  

    Tuesday, 19th March 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers Kev Martin & Walking Civil War attended Tuesday morning's training session at Gosch's Paddock to bring you the following observations ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 19

  • Training  

    Saturday, 16th March 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers Kev Martin and Dee Zephyr wandered down to Gosch's Paddock on Saturday morning to bring you their observations from the Captain's Run in the lead up to Sunday's Round One match against the Bulldogs ... READ MORE

    Demonland | March 16

  • Farewell  

    Angus Brayshaw Retires

    After 167 games including the drought breaking Premiership Angus Brayshaw has made the heart breaking decision to medically retire from football as a result of a series of serious head knocks over his nearly decade of footy. We wish Gus all the best and he'll always be a hero at Demonland ... READ MORE

    Demonland | February 22

  • Latest Podcast  

    PODCAST: Koltyn Tholstrup Interview

    I interview the Melbourne Football Club’s newest recruit Koltyn Tholstrup to have a chat about his journey from the farm to the Demons, his first few weeks of preseason training, which Dees have impressed him on the track and his aspirations of playing Round 1 ... LISTEN

    Demonland | December 14

  • Latest Podcast  

    PODCAST: Jason Taylor Interview

    I interview the Melbourne Football Club's National Recruitment Manager Jason Taylor to have a chat about our Trade and Draft period, our newest recruits, our recent recruits who have yet to debut as well as those father son prospects on the horizon ... LISTEN

    Demonland | November 27

  • Next Match 

    .

    Round 03

       vs   

    Saturday 30th March 2024
    @ 07:30pm (AO)

  • MFC Forum  

  • Match Previews & Reports  

  • Training Forum  

  • AFLW Forum  

  • 2024 Player Sponsorship

  • Topics

  • Injury List  


      PLAYER INJURY LENGTH
    Jake Lever Knee Test
    Clayton Oliver Hand Test
    Oliver Sestan Concussion Test
    Steven May Ribs 1 Week
    Lachie Hunter Calf 1 Week
    Daniel Turner Hip 2-3 Weeks
    Charlie Spargo Achilles 2-4 Weeks
    Shane McAdam Hamstring 3-5 Weeks
    Jake Bowey Shoulder 7 Weeks
    Jake Melksham ACL 12-14 Weeks
    Joel Smith Suspension TBA

  • Player of the Year  


        PLAYER VOTES
    1 Christian Petracca 27
    2 Steven May 25
    3 Max Gawn 21
    4 Jack Viney 20
    5 Bayley Fritsch 19
    6 Clayton Oliver 18
    7 Christian Salem 12
    8 Blake Howes 11
    9 Jack Billings 10
    9 Alex Neal-Bullen 10

        FULL TABLE
  • Demonland Interviews 



  • Upcoming Events 

×
×
  • Create New...