Jump to content

Posting Unsubstantiated Rumours on this Website is Strictly Forbidden
  • IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING

    Demonland has made the difficult decision to not permit this platform to be used to discuss & debate the off-field issues relating to the Melbourne Football Club including matters currently being litigated between the Club & former Board members, board elections, the culture at the club & the personal issues & allegations against some of our players & officials ...

    We do not take these issues & this decision lightly & of course we believe that these serious matters affecting the club we love & are so passionate about are worthy of discussion & debate & I wish we could provide a place where these matters can be discussed in a civil & respectful manner.

    However these discussions unfortunately invariably devolve into areas that may be defamatory, libelous, spread unsubstantiated rumours & can effect the mental health of those involved. Even discussion & debate of known facts or media reports can lead to finger pointing, blame & personal attacks.

    The repercussion is that these discussions can open this website, it’s owners & it’s users to legal action & may result in this website being forced to shutdown.

    Our moderating team are all volunteers & cannot moderate the forum 24/7 & as a consequence problematic content that contravenes our rules & standards may go unnoticed for some time before it can be removed.

    We reserve the right to delete posts that offend against our above policy & indeed, to ban posters who are repeat offenders or who breach our code of conduct.

    WE HAVE BUILT A FANTASTIC ONLINE COMMUNITY AT DEMONLAND OVER THE PAST 23 YEARS & WE WOULD LIKE TO CONTINUE TO BE ABLE TO DISCUSS THE CLUB WE LOVE & ARE SO PASSIONATE ABOUT.

    Thank you for your continued support & understanding. Go Dees.


TOUGHNESS Versus SKILL


Bobby McKenzie

Recommended Posts

On our lengthy discussion on JW a few posters asked how Norm Smith would have been coaching Jack Watts. Smith coached  teams in our golden years beautifully balanced with toughness and skill.

The tough hard at it guys were Ron Barassi, Peter Marquis, Noel McMahen ( fearsome) Laurie Mithen ( tough and skilful) Clyde Laidlaw and John Lord to name a few.

On the skilled side were  Don Williams, Athol Webb, Ian McLean, Bob McKenzie ,Geoff Tunbridge, Ian Ridley and Ken Melville. Some might argue about Tunbridge as being skilled but was he skilled when shooting for goal on the run! Wobbly old punt kicks but so accurate.  

So basically Jack would fit into the second category and IMO Smithy would want him in his team.

Edited by Bobby McKenzie
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We'll never know. Norm was gifted some magnificent playing lists in the 50s, his time with Fitzroy and later with post Barassi teams it was a different story. Fire and brimstone less effective. Norm's genius with Barassi was finding a unique onfield playing position (ruckrover) where Barassi's eccentric talents could become effective. So I would see Watts becoming some kind of lead up/ decoy forward who the midfield would PASS to. Let the opposition worry when Watts was the go to man or the Norm Smith decoy. Watts would get his bags if 4 and 5 in his good days because Watts is a dead eye dick. Smith would be smart enough to know when Watts was having an off day and move him back to a wing where he could play his link man role setting up the forwards. Good luck to him at his new club and Jesse learn to kick.

Edited by bush demon
Left a bit out
Link to comment
Share on other sites


Ron, a protege of Norm, has often said he doesn't give any plaudits for natural ability.  His attitude is that you didn't earn it, it was gifted to you by your parents.  He wanted players that would make the most of themselves.

Ron was also famously toughest on his most talented players.

I don't think Jack would have made it through half a season under either Norm or Ron.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

Ron, a protege of Norm, has often said he doesn't give any plaudits for natural ability.  His attitude is that you didn't earn it, it was gifted to you by your parents.  He wanted players that would make the most of themselves.

Ron was also famously toughest on his most talented players.

I don't think Jack would have made it through half a season under either Norm or Ron.

David Cordner was a poor mans Jack Watts and was there for all but the first year of Barassi’s tenure.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Skuit said:

I thought there would be a poll. Toughness. As the AFL slowly drifts toward rolling mauls. Can't hurt with skill if you can't win the ball.

The last time AFL looked like becoming a rolling maul (Swans defensive "flood"; Hawks "rolling zone") it got picked apart first by the Cats and to a lesser extent the Dogs by rapid ball movement and precision foot skills. So much so that Clarko saw that this was a far more effective way to play and changed the Hawks style accordingly.

These things can change within the course of a season, and if you get caught out with last year's game style, which other teams have worked hard to counter, you can end up holding a ticket for a bus that left long ago. The trick, as Clarko realised when he had the cattle, is to develop next year's game style.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Akum said:

The last time AFL looked like becoming a rolling maul (Swans defensive "flood"; Hawks "rolling zone") it got picked apart first by the Cats and to a lesser extent the Dogs by rapid ball movement and precision foot skills. So much so that Clarko saw that this was a far more effective way to play and changed the Hawks style accordingly.

These things can change within the course of a season, and if you get caught out with last year's game style, which other teams have worked hard to counter, you can end up holding a ticket for a bus that left long ago. The trick, as Clarko realised when he had the cattle, is to develop next year's game style.

That's all good and fair, except most of what I said was empty platitudes. The Hawks were certainly exceptionally skilled with their kicking, but no one would doubt their toughness for one second. Of course, you would prefer both, but that would make for a rather boring poll.

I personally think our lack of skill is overstated - primarily because Goodwin is attempting what you proscribed; trying to get a step ahead of the game with a super high-risk run-n-carry game-style (which at times oddly strikes me as rugby-league-ish - or maybe more so Ultimate Frisbee). I have no idea if it will work. But it's not Mark Neeld a year behind the curve, and it's exciting and unstoppable when we're on.

I think we're lacking some finishing skill in front as the biggest issue. We're not capitalising enough on our i-50 entries, high press, and momentum. Delivery inside is an issue. And people will naturally point to the Jack trade. But for me, at the risk of making a contentious statement, it's the lack of marking and scrap from our two star KPF's which were the problem last year (when they were on the park, or not having an alternative when they were not available).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Toughness gets you in the conversation both as a player and a team, and skill puts you above your peers.

I know this thread was created to decry to the supposed reason for removing a player, but there is a third driver for players and teams and that is commitment. I will not make any judgement of JW here but another, more powerful, recent event - the Tigers wining the flag.

The commitment that their list (their VFL did some damage too) showed to their defensive frenzy of pressure all over the ground was what won them a flag. There is no toughness or skill required - you just pressure and trust your teammates to do the same.

Commitment to a game plan is too readily overlooked in my opinion and I have been impressed with our best 15-18 players commitment to what Goodwin wants them to do. Less impressed with the execution of those competing for the bottom 6 (Salem, Wagner, Hannan, et al). We are so close to that full devotion, if it clicks next year - we will be top 4.

Edited by rpfc
Misspelled Latin
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Watts was a pea heart, pure and simple.

 

He could have been a very good player, but was soft in the air, tackled with his arms, treated training like it was one big excuse to laugh, showed little to no intensity and yet it was always someone else’s fault.

 

But hey, he was a nice guy....

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


21 hours ago, Rod Grinter Riot Squad said:

Watts was a pea heart, pure and simple.

 

He could have been a very good player, but was soft in the air, tackled with his arms, treated training like it was one big excuse to laugh, showed little to no intensity and yet it was always someone else’s fault.

 

But hey, he was a nice guy....

Wow. That is a fair cook.

Wouldn’t go that far, but would agree that on more than one occasion that his problems tended to be blamed on everyone but Jack.

A bit of levity to proceedings can be beneficial, but there is a time and place. 

You just knew in your guts that the rumor about the Storm blokes having no respect for the Demon players arseing around in the gym probably revolved around Jack.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 21/10/2017 at 2:49 AM, Bobby McKenzie said:

 

So basically Jack would fit into the second category and IMO Smithy would want him in his team.

No he wouldn't.  No coach wanted him, only Port were stupid enough to take the punt.

Lazy, soft, unaccountable, poor trainer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be an effective AFL player you need to reach a good standard for both. Throw in pure physical fitness as a third category. Hell, you could even divide that the same way, into stamina/durability versus athletic ability.

If you were trying to build a metric for 'player value' based on skill v toughness, you wouldn't just add them and compare, you would multiply the two together to get your result.

(Caveat - I fully understand that trying to put standardised metrics on this stuff is absurd, I am just using it to illustrate the relationship)

For example;

Fred Keiserkopf is highly skilled (8/10) but a bit of a damp newspaper (2/10), 8x2 = 16.

Geoff McAverageish is just ok at everything, with 5/5 for both, 5x5 = 25.

So you put McAverageish on the field because his effectiveness overall is a half-again Keiserkopf. But you might still draft Keiserkopf in the hope that you can push that toughness up a bit, because even 3x8 puts him at around the same value.

 

Of course, the most recent big example of a coach trying to recruit and organise their team in separate 'streams' of toughness and skill is Terry Wallace at Richmond. That produced a string of highly skilled and quick draft picks who were never forced to develop their toughness and thus never made it as effective AFL players, and a progression of tough-nut players who could win the ball but frankly there wasn't much point them having it.

I think Goodwin &co have learnt the first part of that lesson, but I still have doubts about the second part.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

Wow. That is a fair cook.

Wouldn’t go that far, but would agree that on more than one occasion that his problems tended to be blamed on everyone but Jack.

A bit of levity to proceedings can be beneficial, but there is a time and place. 

You just knew in your guts that the rumor about the Storm blokes having no respect for the Demon players arseing around in the gym probably revolved around Jack.

It is a fair cook, but I think fair.

 

I must make it clear, he is a genuinely good guy, I will Be forever grateful to him for how wonderful he was with my kids each and every time he saw them. I desperately wanted him to succeed, I just he desperately wanted to succeed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I do know is that there are many people who have great potential. True in life as in sport. But very few make it to the lofty levels that we regard as characterizing greatness.

We have all known kids and young men who have the skill however choose not to utilize it. 

Some consciously choose not to do so because of relationships, alternative careers and interests. Some make an effort but the effort falls short of what is required.

The one's that make it may not be the most gifted but they have a single minded determination to succeed. A focus and determination greater than others.

They work hard. Harder than those who don't make it to the level expected. 

They are tough. That is, they have tough attitudes to what they need to do to succeed. And again, they train hard, train consistently and don't use social life or holidays as an excuse to have a break. Continuity is the key, which can be a problem when continuity is interrupted by injury.  However, their attitude to injury and recovery is just as single-minded and thorough as every other part of their training and preparation.  

They also bring an incredibly high level of competitiveness to competition.

They hate to be beaten and will always get as much out of themselves as they physically and mentally can. Run through walls, run to the point of sickness and collapse. 

They don't accept excuses for themselves.

They are single minded and don't usually need other people including coaches to motivate them.

They are self-starters. 

And at the end of their career they can usually sit back and say "well I gave it everything and have no excuses". 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 21/10/2017 at 7:23 AM, Axis of Bob said:

I think you want toughness and skill.

But the toughness or, more to the point, competitiveness, is a non-negotiable. Every player needs it. You just need to find competitive players that have skill too.

Having skilled players that don't compete is no good.

You have picked the right word: toughness is by some equivalent to thuggery, which is not what we need.  We need good players who are super competitive rather than unskilled thugs or soft hearted gazelles.  If the gazelle is also competitive then all the better  

Goodwin and the recruiting and development team have that challenge: find, develop and maintain the blend. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Demonland Forums  

  • Match Previews, Reports & Articles  

    DEE-RUBBING by George on the Outer

    For the second week in a row, the Demons had to endure some particularly oppressive match conditions — this time, playing in 30 degree temperatures at the MCG, following the humid sticky Sydney atmosphere of last week.   The warmer conditions didn’t seem to worry the Dee’s since the ball was so much easier to handle, and handle it with surety they did in handing out a 45 point drubbing to the much fancied Western Bulldogs.   After a slow start that saw the Dogs out to

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Reports

    PREGAME: Rd 02 vs Hawthorn

    The Demons will return to the MCG next week to face the Hawks before 2 weeks on the road in Adelaide in the lead up to Gather Round. Who comes in and who goes out?

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 125

    PODCAST: Rd 01 vs Western Bulldogs

    The Demonland Podcast will air LIVE on Monday, 18th March @ 8:30pm. Join George, Binman & I as we analyse the Demons victory at the MCG over the Bulldogs in the Round 01. You questions and comments are a huge part of our podcast so please post anything you want to ask or say below and we'll give you a shout out on the show. If you would like to leave us a voicemail please call 03 9016 3666 and don't worry no body answers so you don't have to talk to a human. Listen & Chat

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 64

    POSTGAME: Rd 01 vs Western Bulldogs

    The Demons finally open their account in the 2024 Premiership Season with a 45 point win over the Western Bulldogs at the Home of Football the MCG.   

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 428

    VOTES: Rd 01 vs Western Bulldogs

    Last week Jack Viney polled the maximum number of votes to lead the Demonland Player of the Year Award. Steven May and rookie Blake Howes are equal second. Your votes for the win over the Bulldogs. 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 74

    GAMEDAY: Rd 01 vs Western Bulldogs

    On the back of a disappointing Opening Round loss to the Swans in Sydney the Demons return to the MCG today to take on the the Western Bulldogs in a bid to even the ledger early in the 2024 season.

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 467

    TRAINING: Saturday 16th March 2023

    Demonland Trackwatchers Kev Martin and Dee Zephyr wandered down to Gosch's Paddock on Saturday morning to bring you their observations from the Captain's Run in the lead up to Sunday's Round One match against the Bulldogs. KEV MARTIN'S CAPTAIN'S RUN OBSERVATIONS Rehab  is out early. A beautiful Saturday morning, though plenty of dew on the paddock  Verrall doing hard sprints along the boundary.  McAdam individual program and has started, ball work, change of direction drills,

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    CROSSING THE PICKETT LINE by The Oracle

    Melbourne’s performance in losing its Round Zero contest in Sydney has certainly caused the club, the coach and the players to come firmly under the watchful eye of the football world and exposed all of its aspects to a microscopic lens.   Much of the commentary surrounding them has been less than complimentary and, while some might argue that this is unfair after only one round, leaving aside some of the scuttlebutt that surrounds a lot of the discussion around the game, a fair amoun

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Previews

    TRAINING: Monday 11th March 2024

    Demonland Trackwatcher Kev Martin braved the scorching heat on a public holiday to bring you the following observations from Training. The set up, is being put up, for an 11.45am post review training session.   32 in the full session. Rehab: Spargo (runners and singlet), Turner, BBB, and Verrall (looks to be a test). Hunter doing his own program. Bowser in the arm sling. May looks fine. No McAdam.  As they gathered, they gave Melky a round of applause, he

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports
  • Tell a friend

    Love Demonland? Tell a friend!
×
×
  • Create New...