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DeeSpencer

Mahoney, get away

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With regards to Oscar, there is one better player that was taken after him in the 2014 ND (Harris Andrews) and we didn't have access to him (QLD zone).  There's another player as good, or better, and we didn't have access to him either (Zaine Cordy - F/S).

There are a few better from the rookie draft, but in the main they're older and form part of what's good about that draft. i.e. opportunities to mature age or hopefuls that missed the ND.

So in essence, Oscar was an excellent choice at 53 in that particular draft and there's not a single chosen player (that we had access to) better.

And he's only going to get better.

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7 minutes ago, ProDee said:

With regards to Oscar, there is one better player that was taken after him in the 2014 ND (Harris Andrews) and we didn't have access to him (QLD zone).  There's another player as good, or better, and we didn't have access to him either (Zaine Cordy - F/S).

There are a few better from the rookie draft, but in the main they're older and form part of what's good about that draft. i.e. opportunities to mature age or hopefuls that missed the ND.

So in essence, Oscar was an excellent choice at 53 in that particular draft and there's not a single chosen player (that we had access to) better.

And he's only going to get better.

true. but doesn't mean we have to play him. Dan Butler is another one but yeah you're right there wasn't really anyone else after him.

Edited by Dr.D

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29 minutes ago, Dr.D said:

OMac is a spud. i'm sure I'd get better as the year wore on too! Not sure how he is on an afl list to be honest. 

Perhaps if you share your opinion of Oscar 16 more times in the next 48 hours, then we might all get the idea.

Then, you can find a new and equally negative and repetitive topic to discuss.

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29 minutes ago, Dr.D said:

OMac is a spud. i'm sure I'd get better as the year wore on too! Not sure how he is on an afl list to be honest. 

Pathetic post.  Seriously, I have no idea how supporters can come to this conclusion.  The kid is no superstar, but he does his job week in, week out and is only scratching the surface of what he can be.  If he continues to play a role behind Jake Lever then he'll be everything we've wanted him to be.

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Just now, Dr.D said:

true. but doesn't mean we have to play him. 

He was played too early.  No doubt.

But I think we'll reap the rewards of that sooner rather than later.

i see what you don't like about him, i.e. slow as treacle and poor foot skills, but (unlike his Brother) he plays within his limitations and has already shown the capacity to improve.  His role won't be exciting, but it will be important.

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Oscar's foot skills will exceed those of his brother. He looks a lot neater. 

 

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49 minutes ago, hemingway said:

Please.  Show some respect and decency.

The trashing of OMac is as tiresome as it has been of Watts.

He has his moments but he has also shown that he can develop into a very good player.

He is still a kid and deserves support.

I have been a critic Ernest but you are 100% correct.

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1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

You don't give up pick 23 for a couple of good years of production in a bad team unless you're so keen to protect Paul Roos' reputation. Also you're factoring in what Vince was at Melbourne not his lessening value to the Crows who gladly parted with him. Either way, Adelaide jumped on that deal, desperate for a draft pick after facing sanctions. We were the suckers that went straight to them with a quality pick. 

It's extremely cynical to reduce the dire need at that time for a quality senior player as protecting Roos' reputation.

The club was desperate to pick itself up off the canvass in 14-16. It did so, and Vince was pivotal in being able to do that. He was essentially a straight swap for Sylvia. He was needed to provide a competitive balance on the field and stem the flow of constant embarrassment.

Outside of "what about Matt Crouch?" (who I'm yet to hear that we would've recruited anyway), I can't fathom anyone calling Vince, a best and fairest winner, a failure for a second round pick.

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14 minutes ago, P-man said:

Oscar's foot skills will exceed those of his brother. He looks a lot neater. 

 

I agree that they are a bit neater and also a previous post that he does play within his own limitations but to me it's the decision making. Like whenever T.Mcdonald is playing in the backline, he immediately looks inboard and often turns it over.

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3 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

 

Let's look at some recent deals:

1. Picks 2 and 20 for Tyson and 9 (Salem)
Values Tyson at approximately pick 5. He'd barely played, had knee problems and the Giants didn't want him. Yes we got Hunt late but we would've got him anyway, no impact on the deal. Did we need a ready to play midfielder, sure? But why pay so much?
Verdict: Clear OVERS

2. Bernie Vince for pick 23
Vince was 27 and playing as a depth mid for the Crows, really not doing a lot. We needed a mid and got 23 from Sylvia but we still gave up a solid pick for 3 useful years of a player. That Bernie played so well for us was more of an indication of our lack of depth than his value. 
Verdict: Overs

3. Melksham for 25
Again, the player has been ok but he was in the Essendon 2's at some stages and banned for a year. A solid pick for a depth player
Verdict: Overs.

4. Lever for the farm
Time will tell but the Tigers just won the flag avoiding giving 2 first rounders for Treloar and signing Prestia instead. We acquiesced to a trade demand on the 4th day of the 2 week period.
Verdict: Overs

Convincing players to come to your club with money and opportunity is a way to improve your list. You're meant to win trades by giving up market value then having the player do well in your system. Instead we are paying clearly over market value then hoping the players justify the trades. 

These players have improved the team but they haven't improved the list. It's the reason we still have big weaknesses on the list despite some quality drafting and development. We are using trades to return to the middle of the ladder, not to get ahead of other sides.

Josh Mahoney, the last of the Cam Schwab hires, the journeyman player and failed Neeld assistant coach who did a short course at Harvard. It's time to go. 

 

 

Not sure if your trolling on it.

You have no idea about rebuilding a club. We had been rebuilding for years unsuccessfully prior to Mahoney. To rebuild we didn't need to enter the draft, that would take too long. We needed to rebuild by trading our draft picks for AFL ready players. Trying to rebuild through the draft takes 5 years, we needed to trade in ready made AFL players because us supporters had enough of the rebuild as we had been unsuccessful too many times.

Draft picks are absolute lotteries, you never know how they will fill out and develop. Vince, a best and fairest and turned out to be a great acquisition for our club. Pick 23 is definitely not overs considering we could of went to the draft and picked up Cale Morton.

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24 minutes ago, old dee said:

I have been a critic Ernest but you are 100% correct.

Think I am just getting old and irritable with the lack of courtesy and respect for others. 

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When OMac was recruited he was for the majority playing as a forward having been moved to defence for only his last couple of TAC Cup games. 

So of course he's going to be a bit shaky, with Roos and Co essentially building a defender from scratch. 

Why is this even a thing anyway?

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It’s pretty clear that when you’ve been to the drafts as much as we have over the years, that eventually you need to bite the bullet and identify those niche players that complete what the FD thinks a premiership puzzle looks like. We may have gotten out of this cheaper but really I don’t think has too much influence on where the club is right now. We’re after plug and play as opposed to draft and develop.

We’ll improve on this season and then start hitting the free agents that want to play in a side that’s looking likely.

 

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Im happy we've got a known quality on our list for 2018 that is also widely tipped as a future star if not already considered to be.

Rumour also is thst he belted tex in the rioms half time on gf day. 

Im happy to let the 'experts' debate the value of the trade, im hwppy for the following.

The mfc have gotten the deal done. It builds a good reputation and the goodwill in thr afl circles and will bring in other wins in negotiations in the future.

Draft picks are important but does anyone actually think those players drafted with 10 and say 14 in 2018 will win us games next year?

I'm happy to go for the now. We dont need picks, we need players. How nice is it to finally be considered a contender and not a pretender.

 

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I refute the entire premise of the thread as being based on pure speculation.

We paid overs... meaning we could have got the same players/picks for less... which if you aren't part of the FD and aren't negotiating with rival clubs you know how?... or maybe we should be one of those clubs that just doesn't do any deals at all.  

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4 hours ago, GCDee said:

When I first saw the deal I did not see we were getting Adelaides second back.

Pick 10 & 15 (approx) for Lever and 35 plus we upgrade a 4th to a 3rd next year (which is around another say 10 pick upgrade) looks pretty good to me, gone are the days where our first round pick is going to be top 3 and worth the farm. At the end of the day there isn't too much between a early second and a late first. 

We still have a pretty decent draft position with 27, 35 and probably 29 from the Watts trade.

You have to give to get quality.

I dont think it was just you. I was busy at work and the information I found in one of the AFL live feeds had no mention of pick 35 coming back to us. I have been angry at work half the day for no reason.

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DS - you're a good poster. I'm therefore assuming someone's stolen your log in details.

We have nailed some of these deals. And Mahoney has been excellent in the role.

 

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You don't write for the Herald Sun do you, OP?

Let's break down the "big four" trades shall we. 

1. Tyson and Salem for pick 2.

You're forgetting how bad we were at the time. 2 for the price of one was a necessity. Tyson has been serviceable and Salem has shown his talent. Further, swapping picks from 70 to 55 that landed Hunt WAS crucial as Collingwood had promised to take him in the 60s (as Hamish McLaughlin said on air in Hunt's debut). Further, there's very strong doubt we would have taken Kelly at 2. Roos has publicly stated we wouldn't. You don't have to believe him if you want (he does spin some drivel). But that year, there were a lot of names thrown up for pick 2 including Kelly. I've read but haven't seen confirmed that we would have taken Billings. So Kelly IMO is a moot point at this stage as it's highly likely we never would have had him.

2. Bernie Vince for pick 23

Are you fricking kidding me? This one is a win for the ages. That was the pick we got for Sylvia! It's irrelevant that Adelaide spent it on Matt Crouch, as we would have selected Lewis Taylor with that pick had we kept it. He was our backup invitee in case Salem was gone at 9 (been confirmed). Give me five years of Bernie over Taylor any day of the week.

3. pick 25 for Melksham

Who did Essendon take at that pick? Has he outperformed Melksham to date, even with the drug ban? I have no idea who we had in mind to take at 25 but it's proven to be a very good trade for us already.

4. The farm for Lever

You must live on a pretty crappy farm. I think Lever was worth pick 10 and 20. We didn't have that, so rearranged some other picks to get a near market value for him. We maybe didn't have to buckle to Adelaide's demands but the actual price we paid wasn't the farm and wasn't far off a fair price. 

And of course, you didn't mention the trade of all trades. Sam Frost and 40, 53 for pick 23 (Pat McKenna) who is actually on our list now! 

Of course, WITH HINDSIGHT, I'd be keeping pick 2 and drafting Kelly, I'd be taking Cripps at 9 and Matt Crouch at 23, and I'd probably be taking Charlie Curnow ahead of Weideman while I am at it. But if we're allowed the benefit of hindsight, then so are 17 other clubs and it's all going to [censored] itself up with the sliding doors stuff anyway.

 

 

 

 

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48 minutes ago, Unleash Hell said:

Im happy we've got a known quality on our list for 2018 that is also widely tipped as a future star if not already considered to be.

Rumour also is thst he belted tex in the rioms half time on gf day. 

Im happy to let the 'experts' debate the value of the trade, im hwppy for the following.

The mfc have gotten the deal done. It builds a good reputation and the goodwill in thr afl circles and will bring in other wins in negotiations in the future.

Draft picks are important but does anyone actually think those players drafted with 10 and say 14 in 2018 will win us games next year?

I'm happy to go for the now. We dont need picks, we need players. How nice is it to finally be considered a contender and not a pretender.

 

Hang on.. Wut?

He belted his Skipper at half time on GF?

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3 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Yes and it starts with not making your best offer up front.

Actually I know a number of very successful people who do just make their best offer up front at times. It depends on what you're trying to achieve - if you're trying to stave off competitors or close the deal off ASAP then sometimes it is essential. Obviously the former is not relevant in this case but I'll bet the latter is - I'll be stunned if we don't have other fish to fry that involve the pick we received back from Adelaide, in which case this deal becomes time critical. You've made assumptions that the motivator was that he wants to be an anti-Dodoro and another assumption that because it's the only reason you could think of, it's the only reason full stop. 

It also may be that their view of the value of draft picks differs from yours. This would be part of an overall strategy to build the list a certain way. And I think arguably there's not a huge amount of difference between some pick hopefully in the mid teens next year and 27 this year - certainly the AFL points system doesn't indicate much difference. 

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11 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

DS - you're a good poster. I'm therefore assuming someone's stolen your log in details.

We have nailed some of these deals. And Mahoney has been excellent in the role.

 

He is a good poster, just cheesed off that we look like marshmallows at the trade table. I thought we paid overs too.

I thought we paid overs for Melksham and Hibberd, but that hindsight thing - very happy now. I'm hoping it's the same with the Lever trade and that Adelaide pick up extremely homesick-prone players or mules.

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Not going to read the whole thread here, I’d imagine vast majority don’t agree with your sentiments. 

On your first point, Tyson was EXCELLENT in his first year at the club, we needed midfielders that were in a certain age bracket rather than developing another one and what we got filled our needs. Tyson then got injured and I’ll admit hasn’t been what he was since. Salem had a good year, nothing special, but enough to tell me he’ll be valuable to us in the future. 

Vince for 23 has been brilliant! He brought experience, a different attitude, and some class to our VFL level midfield. His recent move to defence for me isn’t working but I look at it this way: we lost Sylvia and gained Vince, that’s a definite win. 

Melksham was overs what we paid. I wasn’t comfortable with it at the time but credit to Melks he found a place in the team. Hibberd on the other hand (you conveniently left him out) has been exceptional, package those two together vs the picks and I think we’ve done pretty well. 

The Lever deal, time will tell. I feel we have probably paid a bit over what I would’ve liked, but we obviously didn’t want this to drag out. He’s a fantastic talent and will only get better, he also fulfills one of our list improvement requirements. Our defence was a real issue at times this year, look at our instrumental Rance was for Richmond. 

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3 minutes ago, Roger Mellie said:

Adelaide pick up extremely homesick-prone players or mules.

Aaron Francis (The Talking Mule) would satisfy both criteria.

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