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3 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

They are part of the picture, not the be all and end all Judd didn't bring the success for Carlton and Dangerfield for Geelong coz you need 21 others

 But let me ask you this,  would you have liked us to trade in Grigg and Houli when the were available?

Not all trades will be super stars, you need your role players.

So the answer to your question - yes I'm always interested in premiership players.

Richmond have been absolute bandits with their trades since Blair Hartley took over the role. 

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5 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

How dare they be not as good one on one as Rance or Grundy or Talia   and less than 50 games between them, grow up, Omac got better as the year wore on

The main strength of Rance and Grundy is that they actually win their one on one contests (i.e. they take marks). The first step towards getting to that point i would think is at least being able to stop your opponent from marking it. That ability should be evident very early in a defenders career.

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1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

 

Let's look at some recent deals:

1. Picks 2 and 20 for Tyson and 9 (Salem)
Values Tyson at approximately pick 5. He'd barely played, had knee problems and the Giants didn't want him. Yes we got Hunt late but we would've got him anyway, no impact on the deal. Did we need a ready to play midfielder, sure? But why pay so much?
Verdict: Clear OVERS

2. Bernie Vince for pick 23
Vince was 27 and playing as a depth mid for the Crows, really not doing a lot. We needed a mid and got 23 from Sylvia but we still gave up a solid pick for 3 useful years of a player. That Bernie played so well for us was more of an indication of our lack of depth than his value. 
Verdict: Overs

3. Melksham for 25
Again, the player has been ok but he was in the Essendon 2's at some stages and banned for a year. A solid pick for a depth player
Verdict: Overs.

4. Lever for the farm
Time will tell but the Tigers just won the flag avoiding giving 2 first rounders for Treloar and signing Prestia instead. We acquiesced to a trade demand on the 4th day of the 2 week period.
Verdict: Overs

Convincing players to come to your club with money and opportunity is a way to improve your list. You're meant to win trades by giving up market value then having the player do well in your system. Instead we are paying clearly over market value then hoping the players justify the trades. 

These players have improved the team but they haven't improved the list. It's the reason we still have big weaknesses on the list despite some quality drafting and development. We are using trades to return to the middle of the ladder, not to get ahead of other sides.

Josh Mahoney, the last of the Cam Schwab hires, the journeyman player and failed Neeld assistant coach who did a short course at Harvard. It's time to go. 

 

 

good post. i agree with some of it. missing out on josh kelly in favour of salem and tyson clearly was a loss.  we cant deny that.

we spent a lot on melksham and similar for frost but theyve been great for us and looking back on those picks, there wasnt anyone taken at their picks that were decent.

i think its important to look at it as a whole. we have frost, melksham, vince, tyson and salem who provide us with depth that we didn't have. 

oliver was all jason Taylor, not Mahoney.

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4 minutes ago, Dr.D said:

good post. i agree with some of it. missing out on josh kelly in favour of salem and tyson clearly was a loss.  we cant deny that.

we spent a lot on melksham and similar for frost but theyve been great for us and looking back on those picks, there wasnt anyone taken at their picks that were decent.

i think its important to look at it as a whole. we have frost, melksham, vince, tyson and salem who provide us with depth that we didn't have. 

oliver was all jason Taylor, not Mahoney.

Jason Taylor did the scouting, but Mahoney orchestrated the trade that got us the pick to select him.

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33 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

I must be watching a different player, but I wouldn't classify Salem as a 'marshmellow in one on one contests'.  He's anything but.

A bit like Rocky Road?

A mixture of hard and soft bits at the start but ultimately turns to mush.

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I've only read page one, so it may be mentioned later on, but what about turning a pick in the 20s into Frost, ANB and Oscar ?

Edited by ProDee
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3 minutes ago, McQueen said:

A bit like Rocky Road?

A mixture of hard and soft bits at the start but ultimately turns to mush.

I watched him closely in the last game against Collingwood. He was at a canter for the entire game.

I think if he has a massive pre-season he'll show his true worth.

I honestly don't think he is a natural mid-defender, I'd actually love to see him up forward.

 

 

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2 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

 

Let's look at some recent deals:

1. Picks 2 and 20 for Tyson and 9 (Salem)
Values Tyson at approximately pick 5. He'd barely played, had knee problems and the Giants didn't want him. Yes we got Hunt late but we would've got him anyway, no impact on the deal. Did we need a ready to play midfielder, sure? But why pay so much?
Verdict: Clear OVERS

2. Bernie Vince for pick 23
Vince was 27 and playing as a depth mid for the Crows, really not doing a lot. We needed a mid and got 23 from Sylvia but we still gave up a solid pick for 3 useful years of a player. That Bernie played so well for us was more of an indication of our lack of depth than his value. 
Verdict: Overs

3. Melksham for 25
Again, the player has been ok but he was in the Essendon 2's at some stages and banned for a year. A solid pick for a depth player
Verdict: Overs.

4. Lever for the farm
Time will tell but the Tigers just won the flag avoiding giving 2 first rounders for Treloar and signing Prestia instead. We acquiesced to a trade demand on the 4th day of the 2 week period.
Verdict: Overs

Convincing players to come to your club with money and opportunity is a way to improve your list. You're meant to win trades by giving up market value then having the player do well in your system. Instead we are paying clearly over market value then hoping the players justify the trades. 

These players have improved the team but they haven't improved the list. It's the reason we still have big weaknesses on the list despite some quality drafting and development. We are using trades to return to the middle of the ladder, not to get ahead of other sides.

Josh Mahoney, the last of the Cam Schwab hires, the journeyman player and failed Neeld assistant coach who did a short course at Harvard. It's time to go. 

 

 

 How about you rate:

Gatlett

Lewis

Hibbo

 

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58 minutes ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

This trade would've looked a lot better had Salem actually played anything remotely like a first round draft pick and not been a compete marshmellow in one-on-one contests.

The Vince trade was spot on. Forgotten those 35 possession 3 goal games he was producing in 2014-2015?

And the Hibberd trade we payed unders. Not many clubs would've parted with pick 28 and expecting an All Australian in return. Hopefully his form continues over the next 3 years.

I do concede that the club dropped the ball with the Howe departure. Should've done way more to convince him to stay.

Mahoney's (and his department) made a few trade blues over the years but what footy manager hasn't? He's done enough to keep his job.

You don't give up pick 23 for a couple of good years of production in a bad team unless you're so keen to protect Paul Roos' reputation. Also you're factoring in what Vince was at Melbourne not his lessening value to the Crows who gladly parted with him. Either way, Adelaide jumped on that deal, desperate for a draft pick after facing sanctions. We were the suckers that went straight to them with a quality pick. 

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18 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Have you ever negotiated anything in your life?

Yes and it starts with not making your best offer up front.

We want Lever for 10 and 27 says Mahoney on day 1 on the trade period. Keen to be seen as some kind of anti- Dodoro. 

Crows ask for 2 first rounders. 4 Days later we say yes.

Pick 10 and a 3rd or pick 10 and swap of later picks would've been a smarter offer.

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4 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

You don't give up pick 23 for a couple of good years of production in a bad team unless you're so keen to protect Paul Roos' reputation. Also you're factoring in what Vince was at Melbourne not his lessening value to the Crows who gladly parted with him. Either way, Adelaide jumped on that deal, desperate for a draft pick after facing sanctions. We were the suckers that went straight to them with a quality pick. 

I'd still do that deal every day of the week if we got back to the end of 2013.  His 3 years from '14-'16 were excellent and he totally embraced the club and what his role within it was.  Worth Pick 23 when you factor in what we needed at the time.  We didn't have the freedom to fart around, we needed someone like him, so we got on the front foot and made the deal.

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Just now, DeeSpencer said:

Yes and it starts with not making your best offer up front.

We want Lever for 10 and 27 says Mahoney on day 1 on the trade period. Keen to be seen as some kind of anti- Dodoro. 

Crows ask for 2 first rounders. 4 Days later we say yes.

Pick 10 and a 3rd or pick 10 and swap of later picks would've been a smarter offer.

Smarter maybe, but not equitable.

Take a 3rd round pick out (late 40's) its essentially swapping him for pick 10, when they picked him in the draft at 13.

Its way unders for a guaranteed quality young player.

 

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6 minutes ago, Demons11 said:

 How about you rate:

Gatlett

Lewis

Hibbo

 

Garlett - great pick up, fair trade for a player sacked from his club.

Lewis - another fair trade for a player who's club didn't want him. Not convinced he was worth picking up. Another disaster in negotiating that we folded and gave him a 3rd year of his contract that will bite us in 2019. We offered 2 years with a 3rd year club option. Lewis said 'hmmm not sure' and we quickly gave up the 3rd year. Why?

Hibberd - quality player with an injury history and a year off from a drug ban. Fair trade. Great work by the medical and coaching staff to get him in career best form.

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2 minutes ago, The Stigga said:

Smarter maybe, but not equitable.

Take a 3rd round pick out (late 40's) its essentially swapping him for pick 10, when they picked him in the draft at 13.

Its way unders for a guaranteed quality young player.

 

Do you want the club to try and win a premiership or to be known as the equitable trade team?

Trade after trade we are leaving too much meat on the bone. 

Bit by bit it's meaning our list - which by virtue of having some of the best youngsters in the comp - is only average with gaps to fill instead of excellent.

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1 minute ago, DeeSpencer said:

Do you want the club to try and win a premiership or to be known as the equitable trade team?

Trade after trade we are leaving too much meat on the bone. 

Bit by bit it's meaning our list - which by virtue of having some of the best youngsters in the comp - is only average with gaps to fill instead of excellent.

 

Ok, so what your essentially saying is to refuse to trade with anyone unless they give us what they want (i.e screw them over).

It sounds as though you would have preferred Lever to walk to the draft.

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30 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Jason Taylor did the scouting, but Mahoney orchestrated the trade that got us the pick to select him.

true. but i think taylor would've told mahoney to get me in the top 4 because he loved oliver so much

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10 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Garlett - great pick up, fair trade for a player sacked from his club.

Lewis - another fair trade for a player who's club didn't want him. Not convinced he was worth picking up. Another disaster in negotiating that we folded and gave him a 3rd year of his contract that will bite us in 2019. We offered 2 years with a 3rd year club option. Lewis said 'hmmm not sure' and we quickly gave up the 3rd year. Why?

Hibberd - quality player with an injury history and a year off from a drug ban. Fair trade. Great work by the medical and coaching staff to get him in career best form.

yeah good post.. great pick ups. although, Lewis was pretty crap this year. i don't care where he came in the best and fairest. He turned the ball over a lot and he was brought in to provide leadership so he comes in and gets reported and you could argue that it cost us a finals spot. 

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13 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Garlett - great pick up, fair trade for a player sacked from his club.

Lewis - another fair trade for a player who's club didn't want him. Not convinced he was worth picking up. Another disaster in negotiating that we folded and gave him a 3rd year of his contract that will bite us in 2019. We offered 2 years with a 3rd year club option. Lewis said 'hmmm not sure' and we quickly gave up the 3rd year. Why?

Hibberd - quality player with an injury history and a year off from a drug ban. Fair trade. Great work by the medical and coaching staff to get him in career best form.

We paid unders for all

Edited by Demons11
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Great thread, Deespencer.

So many sycophants on here say "I'll back the Football Department on this one" and "Mahoney has a great record". 

They must not watch Josh Kelly & Matt Crouch play.  

We are a middle of the road side.  The recruiting and trading can only have been just average.

Unfortunately it all dates back to Roos' hippy, meditation style of "win-win" trading.  I can't wait to start seeing the win out of the Salem and Tyson trade.  "Oh but we got Jayden Hunt out of that trade".  No.  We had pick 58 before we traded the farm to GWS, and got pick 57 back which we took Hunt with.  So we'd have got Hunt anyway if we hadn't traded pick 2.

I wish the club had told Adelaide to get [censored] today, and told them come back to us when they've found a way to turn pick 35 into pick 25 for us.  

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Have we considered the club have made the strategic move to back player development and club culture over the "pick them with early picks and success will follow" approach of previous regimes?

If you take the view you only need (and can afford to keep) X number of high end talents, then you trade speculative picks for known high end talent.

And you back yourself in to develop the role players to surround them with late picks. Butler and Castagna are very "meh" players, but they played their role with discipline and have a premiership.

In addition the lure of success and good culture may snag another couple of top talents via free agency to top up.

i have no idea if that's what their strategy is, or if it would pay off.

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1 hour ago, Satyriconhome said:

How dare they be not as good one on one as Rance or Grundy or Talia   and less than 50 games between them, grow up, Omac got better as the year wore on

OMac is a spud. i'm sure I'd get better as the year wore on too! Not sure how he is on an afl list to be honest. 

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2 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

 

Let's look at some recent deals:

1. Picks 2 and 20 for Tyson and 9 (Salem)
2. Bernie Vince for pick 23
3. Melksham for 25

4. Lever for the farm

First, we were in desperate need of putting together even a basically competent AFL-level midfield. Getting both Tyson and Salem was definitely a better option than Kelly, for all that Kelly is superb. What is the point of having stars if they are surrounded by crap, piled on with pressure and desperately want to leave in a couple of years.

Second, Vince won the Bluey in 2015 and has already played 80 games for us. Down a bit in form this year, but has provided exactly what we hoped for when we recruited him.

Melksham I was hesitant about, but his gradual improvement over the course of the season, and finishing the year as one of the better players, a goal-kicking midfielder who also gave an occasional lock-down role. Absolutely worth it for a mid-20s pick.

Lever and 35 for picks 10 and (let's say... 13 to 15). Lots to pay for a player, but Lever may well be as important to us as Hogan over the next decade. We're talking about a seriously good player fitting into a role we have real deficiency in. His presence will mean each of Jetta, Hibberd, Hunt, the Mcdonalds and Frost will be able to play roles a bit better suited to them. Put simply, Lever in our team is worth a couple of spots up the ladder. Considering we have so very many young players who we still need to sort out, it also makes sense to take a deep breath and see who matures next.

So, even though DeeSpencer has cherry-picked their favourite 'controversial' trades, it is still fair to argue the case either way.

To have a problem with Mahoney on that basis is just... bizarre.

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2 minutes ago, Dr.D said:

OMac is a spud. i'm sure I'd get better as the year wore on too! Not sure how he is on an afl list to be honest. 

Please.  Show some respect and decency.

The trashing of OMac is as tiresome as it has been of Watts.

He has his moments but he has also shown that he can develop into a very good player.

He is still a kid and deserves support.

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