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dino rover

Tiger flag lessons

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What do you think are the lessons of the Richmond win?

They were critiqued here as 4 good players and the rest average but they did the job. 

Tackling pressure, a small fast fwd line, self belief or something else?

What does it mean for the MFC?

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1 minute ago, dino rover said:

What do you think are the lessons of the Richmond win?

They were critiqued here as 4 good players and the rest average but they did the job. 

Tackling pressure, a small fast fwd line, self belief or something else?

What does it mean for the MFC?

95000 plus Anzac eve next year.

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Have a good run with injury and play as a team.

That is in the simplest form.

They had Martin (every game), Reiwoldt (missed 2), Cotchin (every game), Grigg (every game) & Rance (every game) plus I think a few more but they are the keys.

We wouldn't have had too many players play every game!

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Tackle, pressure, tackle, pressure, tackle, pressure.....crowd support,....tackle, pressure, tackle, pressure..belief....tackle, pressure, tackle, pressure,...oh yeah and dive on the ball like its a hand grenade, every game, every time. Tigers played every finals game extremely well. I will go a no name mosquito fleet forward line any day...every time it went into the forward line they had players running everywhere....impossible to cover...I don't believe we are that far behind them.

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We should not play copy cat.  Hopefully Goodwin has a gameplan that can win the big dance, and the players can develop enough capability and skill to deliver it.  We can learn that doing what the bulldogs did (throw and run fast) was OK for one flag.  Richmond did well, and The son of a kiwi crim had an unbelievable season - lets see if they can do it again next year.

The big lesson is that you need to make the finals, and then have a gameplan that works under the pressure of that environment.  A champion team beats a team of champions.  You need to have great days, with your best players available.

The other lesson is that you want to be the 'fairytale' team with protected superstars.  This gives you free reign to 'dont argue' to the face, throw like libba, duck like selwood or do 5 360 degree turns in a tackle and not get pinged like Buddy.  You also need Waleed Ali and Malcolm Turnbull to provide references any time you punch someone in the head because you are such an outstanding fella.

Other lessons - If Tigers and Dogs can do it, we can, too.

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I was interested to hear that the conversation between Reiwoldt and Cotchin was such a driving force behind the season for them. I think it was Cotchin who said that JR had said to him at the end of last year "I can't see myself ever being part of a Premiership" or something similar. 

Coupled with the public disclosure by Hardwick himself that he wasn't listening and was too autocratic, it sounds as though the whole club managed to completely sort its [censored] out and the results are there for all to see.

I wouldn't mind the idea of Reiwoldt and Cotchin having a catch-up with Watts and Jones to discuss such dynamics.

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Every year I like to contrast our players with the Premiership team to see if we are compatible. I understand this is silly for multiple reasons - the game adapts, no teams are the same, Premiership teams always leave their own mark etc etc. And I'd like to say when analysing the Tigers it's clear that had a dream run with injuries during the year and of course if a few things go differently I'm doing this with the Crows (or Giants, Swans etc).

List wise the Tigers have holes but their team is balanced between stars, solid players and role players. The Tigers were clearly a super fit team built around a strong backline, deep midfield and pressure forwards. What they lacked in skill they made up in work rate, grunt and belief. Whilst I don't think we should shake things up entirely to completely mimic them I do think it's worth noting how so many of their players are super fit and of above average speed and how they use that to pressure, out number at contests and spread when they win the ball.

Backline:
FB: Grimes  Rance  Vlaustin
HB:  Ellis   Astbury  Houli     --    Broad

FB: Jetta  Frost   Lever
HB:  Salem  Oscar   Hibberd –  Hunt

Start with the obvious here:
- Frost isn't Rance. But if allowed to sit deeper then attack contests I think he can recreate some of what Rance does. He's one of the few defenders who has the closing speed to make ground in to contests like Rance does, and the way he turns intercepts in to rebounds is similar to Rance and with better team mates up field he can run and kick to space with more confidence.
- Oscar isn't yet Astbury. Astbury is one of the most improved players in the comp and makes Rance's job easier. If he's fitter and has stronger repeat sprints then Oscar should move out to CHB and take the traditional CHF's. Oscar's kicking can be very good and his marking can be solid. 
- Despite different physical builds I think Jetta compares to Grimes in his ability to be a deep defender on smalls who can move on to 3rd talls. Both excellent defenders. If we acquire him then Lever reminds me of Vlaustin as an intercept marking mid/tall who can come up to mark and drop back and defend as well, both aren't technically great kicks but make good decisions and have length.
- Hibberd is similar to Houli, hard running, powerful kick, competitor. Salem needs to get fitter but can easily bring what Ellis does to the Tigers as a kicker from half back
- Finally in terms of a pacey 7th defender who can play small or tall I think we have the advantage with Hunt over Broad who is pretty limited but did a great job in the grand final on Lynch.
- Note: There's no Vince. Each defender has speed and defensive ability. Floating around collecting disposals isn't enough.

Mids:
C: McIntosh   Cotchin   Edwards
R:  Nankervis   Prestia  Martin
I: Graham   Grigg

C:  Brayshaw    Viney   Stretch
R: Gawn   Oliver   Petracca
I:   Tyson   Jones

- A fit Gawn with his mobility back is a weapon around the ground. Nankervis is a good player because he joins in as a midfielder after contesting the ruck. That's Max's challenge to get back to 2016 form
- Viney and Oliver v Prestia and Cotchin. I'll take our boys. They need to clean up their kicking and get fitter and healthier but I'm confident we've got grunt in the midfield.

- Petracca v Martin - the blueprint for Tracc is there. He has the rare power and burst in the midfield and can turn a game forward. 
- Jones and Tyson should be the moving parts like Grigg and Graham are for the Tigers. Grigg goes in to the ruck, for Jones it might be forward to pressure or back for some drive. Tyson's a solid mark and smart accumulator in space as well as a good clearance player, there's easily a role for him despite his kicking.
- The wings are where we have question marks. Edwards is a classy player with speed and a nice step. Stretch isn't as good at this stage but he has some pace and will run all day. McIntosh is an important player even if he has limited kicking skills. He runs hard and provides a big body for contests on the ground and in the air. Brayshaw can do that if his tank develops, not quite as big but he's very good in the air.
- Note there's no Lewis. The Tigers are swarming the ball and moving quickly. They don't carry a guy who doesn't run hard defensively just because he can pad the stats.

Forwards:
HF: Rioli    Caddy   Lambert     -  Castagna
FF: Butler   Riewoldt  Townsend

HF:  Hannan  Hogan   ANB ---- Melksham
FF: Garlett   T Mc   Vanders


- The Tigers have pioneered a 1 tall set up out of need but I don't think we should copy it. Instead of using a midfielder in Grigg in the ruck I think we use 2 key forwards but give both of them second roles up the ground. For Hogan that means playing more like Caddy than a traditional CHF. Hoges should go in to the midfield and mix his time between CHF, midfield and deep. Starting in different positions allows him to find more of the ball and get different match ups instead of being predictable. I'm a genuine believer in Tom McDonald as a forward and him edging out Pedersen for the spot. I actually think Tom can recreate the way Riewoldt plays in terms of leading up for the footy and competing in big packs to bring it to ground, he also should bring a defenders work rate to chase and tackle, especially if ankle surgery gives him more lateral movement. His fitness makes him ideally suited as a 2nd ruck who brings a midfielders endurance and mobility in to the centre. 
- ANB is very similar to Lambert as a midfielder who plays half forward and brings ball winning skills and pressure. 
- Vanders is important in the Townsend role - the defensive forward who can provide and aerial contest, kick a goal every now and then and tackle with serious intent. Tagging intercept defenders is an important role
- Garlett is very similar to Dan Butler. The challenge for Jeff is to make sure he's tackling and being physical because his speed is great
- Melksham is a bit different to Castagna in that he's not as quick but finds more of it and can hit the scoreboard. Ability to either tag a rebounder or get them tired chasing him is where he provides value.
- Hannan isn't a Rioli - then again, without the breakout Prelim game Dan Rioli is still a fair bit behind Cyril. Hannan doesn't have the strong tackling, but he is capable in the air, brings pace to get the ball and to chase/tackle and has the ability to grab a goal from no where. Tackling should and ground balls should be his focus for preseason.
Note: There's no Jack Watts, ideally every forward brings tackle pressure but if there's an exception it's to Hogan who's young enough to improve it and has the work rate and strength in contests to overcome deficiencies. If there was a spot for a fitter and more committed Watts I'd actually like to see him recreate the way Shane Edwards plays on a wing/forward and on ball bringing some speed and class at stoppages then out in space.

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Great analysis, Deespencer.

Do you see a coincidence that Richmond played a very similar game to what we played in our win over Adelaide?

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15 minutes ago, McQueen said:

Great analysis, Deespencer.

Do you see a coincidence that Richmond played a very similar game to what we played in our win over Adelaide?

I thought all year Adelaide were susceptible to a team that could beat them around the ball and then out work them. Playing at the MCG in a swirly wind was a huge factor as well, that's an easy way to beat Adelaide's precision ball movement. They also lost to North in Tassie in the standard hurricane.

Crows play with too many deep forwards who don't get involved in play (Jenkins, Ottens - usually McGovern, and Betts) and too many deep defenders who don't rebound. When it works it's great. But you can't play up and down the MCG, it's too wide, the ball travels in circles and you need all 18 contributing.

It's funny because our best footy this year looked liked Richmond but the way we wanted to play with a high possession game with lots of kicking on angles looks like the Crows. Maybe the ideal football we want to play combines both sides.

When we beat the Crows we had Pedersen and Watts as extra midfielders in the ruck who combined with Oliver, Viney and Petracca we smashed them around the ball with too much inside burst. Frost and Oscar played great down back on Tex and Jenkins. Tommy Mc forced a contest in a dirty forward role and Weeds did the same with not much ball but some tackling. Salem and Hibberd feasted on the turnovers the forwards and mids created. 

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1- Goody & co stick to your plan & ignore the noise! If Richmond listened they would have sacked the board & the coach!

2- Need to be patient as it took Hardwick 8 seasons to win a flag & some auppprtes are questioning   Goody after 1 .. lol!

3- Continue  to improve the list & get players who can play high intensity/ pressure footy which wins finals.

4- Tigers gun players were all 26+ yo & played in access of 150 games..  All of our up young guns are between 20-24 & played below 100 games & a lot below 50! 

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2 hours ago, dino rover said:

What do you think are the lessons of the Richmond win?

They were critiqued here as 4 good players and the rest average but they did the job. 

Tackling pressure, a small fast fwd line, self belief or something else?

What does it mean for the MFC?

 

1. you've got to be in it to win it. Then anything can happen.

 

2. any changes to personnel, training, game plan, etc, are completely secondary to our number one weakness. Which is our undying ability to stumble at any crucial hurdle, no matter how low.

Fair dinkum, if we had to beat Dimboola thirds to make the finals, we'd find a way to balls it up.

That over all else is what needs to be worked on.

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2 minutes ago, Mazer Rackham said:

 

1. you've got to be in it to win it. Then anything can happen.

 

2. any changes to personnel, training, game plan, etc, are completely secondary to our number one weakness. Which is our undying ability to stumble at any crucial hurdle, no matter how low.

Fair dinkum, if we had to beat Dimboola thirds to make the finals, we'd find a way to balls it up.

That over all else is what needs to be worked on.

spot on

about five rounds out from the finals I picked the Tiges as a real chance for 9th or tenth. Their run home was not simple.

Not only did they win but they took the 4th spot when Port stumbled.

From 4th they beat Geelong and as they say the rest is history.

Not horribly dissimilar to our run in 2000 except we missed out badly on the fairy tale ending

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Tiges redefined defensive pressure. Every player prepared to gut run. No weak links in the chain. Take note Jack Watts!

Good run with injuries. Huge advantage in this day and age.

Neale Balme factor. Tiges developed a belief and its no coincidence that this came with arrival at Richmond. Did same at Geelong and Pies.

Smart trading: Influence of Caddy, Nankervis and Prestia was profound even though Prestia was a slow starter.

Having a game plan built around strengths. Only one tall forward (albeit quality) with swarming small forwards that can kick!

Tiger board invested in their coach rather than fire him. Gave Hardwick tools to do the job. New assistants, new football manager, etc.

Momentum. Won a big final (against Geelong) and any lingering doubts were gone. 70,000 passionate members cheering you on certainly helps.

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Physicality, hard at it, no recruiting superannuants from other clubs, Vince, Lewis, build your own culture, heat is on Gawn, Watts and Garlett, players who would not be suited to the rough and tumble of the occasion in my opinion.

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17 minutes ago, bluey said:

Physicality, hard at it, no recruiting superannuants from other clubs, Vince, Lewis, build your own culture, heat is on Gawn, Watts and Garlett, players who would not be suited to the rough and tumble of the occasion in my opinion.

Thats why we have critics.

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Don't get sucked into to recruiting an aged slow leader seeking superannuation.  It only belittles the leadership you have and are trying to create.    Bulldogs didn't.  Richmond didn't.  Only basket-cases like Gold Coast and Bears need this.

Cross

 

 

Rely on another team to pass on a superstar bull.

(Melbourne - Dusty)

St Kilda - Petracca

Cross, tick tick.

 

 

Stay the course, play to your strengths.  Pick a little of what worked from Richmond, but nothing wholesale.

Tick (assumption)

 

 

 

TiGeR

 

 

 

 

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I have heard people say Richmond are the worst side to win a flag. 

That is just total rubbish. They should be remembered as a great side, because they thrived and got stronger under pressure. 

Played the ultimate team game in front of their own supporters. 

Imagine if the MFC did that?

we need 44 committed guys to work hard together. Of course some will shine more than others. 

But everyone is needed. 

In 1955 i will bet most of the MFC Premiership side was not so well known to the public. 

Didn’t stop them winning 5 out of the next six flags....

Hardwick took a good hard look at himself last year and got everyone pulling in the same direction...

that’s what you take out of saturdays game. 

 

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If you look at our successful games this year the intensity the tigers played, we also also played in our best matches.  We just need to sustain it for 4 qtrs and the majority of the season.

The tigers success is easier draw, lots of luck and right place right opponents in the finals that didn't do their homework on the tiger game plan.  Crows did it for a qtr then stopped for some reason?  

Hopefully we have lots of luck next year...

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Peeps keep banging on about the Tiges' pressure. While it is true that they smothered the Crows and have made certain decent teams look clueless over the course - while not playing especially impressive football themselves - I've seen much greater pressure dished out by us and some others this year.

Someone here who I keep forgetting (apologies once again - @Nasherreminded me previously) brought up the notion of 'controlled' pressure earlier in the season, and I think that may be the key. We may be more frantic in applying pressure when we're running at optimal, but we need to be more composed at it so as not to spend all our cookies and leak goals through over-committing positionally.

Minor tweak.

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18 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Every year I like to contrast our players with the Premiership team to see if we are compatible. I understand this is silly for multiple reasons - the game adapts, no teams are the same, Premiership teams always leave their own mark etc etc. And I'd like to say when analysing the Tigers it's clear that had a dream run with injuries during the year and of course if a few things go differently I'm doing this with the Crows (or Giants, Swans etc).

List wise the Tigers have holes but their team is balanced between stars, solid players and role players. The Tigers were clearly a super fit team built around a strong backline, deep midfield and pressure forwards. What they lacked in skill they made up in work rate, grunt and belief. Whilst I don't think we should shake things up entirely to completely mimic them I do think it's worth noting how so many of their players are super fit and of above average speed and how they use that to pressure, out number at contests and spread when they win the ball.

Backline:
FB: Grimes  Rance  Vlaustin
HB:  Ellis   Astbury  Houli     --    Broad

FB: Jetta  Frost   Lever
HB:  Salem  Oscar   Hibberd –  Hunt

Start with the obvious here:
- Frost isn't Rance. But if allowed to sit deeper then attack contests I think he can recreate some of what Rance does. He's one of the few defenders who has the closing speed to make ground in to contests like Rance does, and the way he turns intercepts in to rebounds is similar to Rance and with better team mates up field he can run and kick to space with more confidence.
- Oscar isn't yet Astbury. Astbury is one of the most improved players in the comp and makes Rance's job easier. If he's fitter and has stronger repeat sprints then Oscar should move out to CHB and take the traditional CHF's. Oscar's kicking can be very good and his marking can be solid. 
- Despite different physical builds I think Jetta compares to Grimes in his ability to be a deep defender on smalls who can move on to 3rd talls. Both excellent defenders. If we acquire him then Lever reminds me of Vlaustin as an intercept marking mid/tall who can come up to mark and drop back and defend as well, both aren't technically great kicks but make good decisions and have length.
- Hibberd is similar to Houli, hard running, powerful kick, competitor. Salem needs to get fitter but can easily bring what Ellis does to the Tigers as a kicker from half back
- Finally in terms of a pacey 7th defender who can play small or tall I think we have the advantage with Hunt over Broad who is pretty limited but did a great job in the grand final on Lynch.
- Note: There's no Vince. Each defender has speed and defensive ability. Floating around collecting disposals isn't enough.

Mids:
C: McIntosh   Cotchin   Edwards
R:  Nankervis   Prestia  Martin
I: Graham   Grigg

C:  Brayshaw    Viney   Stretch
R: Gawn   Oliver   Petracca
I:   Tyson   Jones

- A fit Gawn with his mobility back is a weapon around the ground. Nankervis is a good player because he joins in as a midfielder after contesting the ruck. That's Max's challenge to get back to 2016 form
- Viney and Oliver v Prestia and Cotchin. I'll take our boys. They need to clean up their kicking and get fitter and healthier but I'm confident we've got grunt in the midfield.

- Petracca v Martin - the blueprint for Tracc is there. He has the rare power and burst in the midfield and can turn a game forward. 
- Jones and Tyson should be the moving parts like Grigg and Graham are for the Tigers. Grigg goes in to the ruck, for Jones it might be forward to pressure or back for some drive. Tyson's a solid mark and smart accumulator in space as well as a good clearance player, there's easily a role for him despite his kicking.
- The wings are where we have question marks. Edwards is a classy player with speed and a nice step. Stretch isn't as good at this stage but he has some pace and will run all day. McIntosh is an important player even if he has limited kicking skills. He runs hard and provides a big body for contests on the ground and in the air. Brayshaw can do that if his tank develops, not quite as big but he's very good in the air.
- Note there's no Lewis. The Tigers are swarming the ball and moving quickly. They don't carry a guy who doesn't run hard defensively just because he can pad the stats.

Forwards:
HF: Rioli    Caddy   Lambert     -  Castagna
FF: Butler   Riewoldt  Townsend

HF:  Hannan  Hogan   ANB ---- Melksham
FF: Garlett   T Mc   Vanders


- The Tigers have pioneered a 1 tall set up out of need but I don't think we should copy it. Instead of using a midfielder in Grigg in the ruck I think we use 2 key forwards but give both of them second roles up the ground. For Hogan that means playing more like Caddy than a traditional CHF. Hoges should go in to the midfield and mix his time between CHF, midfield and deep. Starting in different positions allows him to find more of the ball and get different match ups instead of being predictable. I'm a genuine believer in Tom McDonald as a forward and him edging out Pedersen for the spot. I actually think Tom can recreate the way Riewoldt plays in terms of leading up for the footy and competing in big packs to bring it to ground, he also should bring a defenders work rate to chase and tackle, especially if ankle surgery gives him more lateral movement. His fitness makes him ideally suited as a 2nd ruck who brings a midfielders endurance and mobility in to the centre. 
- ANB is very similar to Lambert as a midfielder who plays half forward and brings ball winning skills and pressure. 
- Vanders is important in the Townsend role - the defensive forward who can provide and aerial contest, kick a goal every now and then and tackle with serious intent. Tagging intercept defenders is an important role
- Garlett is very similar to Dan Butler. The challenge for Jeff is to make sure he's tackling and being physical because his speed is great
- Melksham is a bit different to Castagna in that he's not as quick but finds more of it and can hit the scoreboard. Ability to either tag a rebounder or get them tired chasing him is where he provides value.
- Hannan isn't a Rioli - then again, without the breakout Prelim game Dan Rioli is still a fair bit behind Cyril. Hannan doesn't have the strong tackling, but he is capable in the air, brings pace to get the ball and to chase/tackle and has the ability to grab a goal from no where. Tackling should and ground balls should be his focus for preseason.
Note: There's no Jack Watts, ideally every forward brings tackle pressure but if there's an exception it's to Hogan who's young enough to improve it and has the work rate and strength in contests to overcome deficiencies. If there was a spot for a fitter and more committed Watts I'd actually like to see him recreate the way Shane Edwards plays on a wing/forward and on ball bringing some speed and class at stoppages then out in space.

You are over valuing on-field activities and not placing enough emphasis on the off-field strategic outmaneuvers.  

This premiership was born in the depths of the Port Adelaide football club many. many years ago - on those cold Winter nights.  Do some research what you will find will help you unlock the formula. 

Then when you add Neil Balme into the equation you have the final piece in the puzzle who understands

- you trade your way to a premiership not draft your way

-  you require the precise development staff. 

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18 hours ago, Skuit said:

Peeps keep banging on about the Tiges' pressure. While it is true that they smothered the Crows and have made certain decent teams look clueless over the course - while not playing especially impressive football themselves - I've seen much greater pressure dished out by us and some others this year.

Someone here who I keep forgetting (apologies once again - @Nasherreminded me previously) brought up the notion of 'controlled' pressure earlier in the season, and I think that may be the key. We may be more frantic in applying pressure when we're running at optimal, but we need to be more composed at it so as not to spend all our cookies and leak goals through over-committing positionally.

Minor tweak.

Agree. The Tigers are quick and fit on every line and more importantly smart and disciplined so they were moving in to position perfectly. 

Early on Adelaide were winning but the Tigers always got the first number back in space to help out as well as keep pressure around the ball. You could see the windows for Adelaide to kick in to were shrinking and they were afraid of one on ones because Tigers always had position to cover off and help.

It certainly takes hard running and smarts in space but it starts with pressure at the contest without over-committing numbers. The Dogs mastered this with machine learning teachings, I'm not sure if the Dogs did the same or if it was a human factor - that of old fashioned team work and chemistry, particularly with the forwards.

I think having every forward working hard and pressuring makes them predictable and reliable to each other and then you start getting that chemistry where one pressures and the others take care of the outlets. It's where our pressure falls down - at times Garlett gets overly aggressive whilst Hogan and Watts don't chase and then others get left in the lurch. 

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It’s funny as a couple of weeks before the finals we were all trying to manipulate the ladder predictor to get a Melbourne V Richmond elimination final at the G. Most here were confident that we could knock them off which we should have done so earlier in the year if it wasn’t for two first quarter injuries. Now we are trying to learn the lessons of a premiership side

They remind me a bit of that Swans side that made something like one change to their team in the final 6 weeks (?) of the year. They also had all their finals games at the G being matched against a disappointing Cats team and then two interstate thus sides benefitting from a huge home ground and crowd and umpire advantage. 

So what did we learn? You need to have your best team consistently on the ground and a bit of luck where you play your finals matches. Combine this with confidence and belief in what you are doing you can hold the cup on Grand Final day

 

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