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PaulRB

Farewell Jack Watts

Trade Jack Watts or not?  

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3 hours ago, PaulRB said:

I applaud Goodwin and Jones coming out in public and commenting on Jacks inadequate prep and efforts, and acknowledging the club's preparation to trade him off our list. For the single reason that they, and many in here no longer believe Jacks intention and approach to his football is beneficial to the club. 

Several attempts have been made to jolt (Neeld) or love (Roos) Jack into lifting his game, none have been especially successful for long. 

Of the three scenarios from here with Jack the first has become the least palitable to the club: 

1: Jack stays and continues his inadequate approach to his prep and the contested elements of the game. 

2: Jack leaves and we get a pick and move on, demonstrating a new high set of expectations to the team.

3: Jack stays and as a result of the public flaying and prospect of being booted from the MFC, makes some decisions about his footy that dramatically improve his game and contribution to the team. 

We get a pick for Watts. Wow, that's adequate replacement for JW. Not!  I certainly hope we would not accept any draft pick. Pig in a poke is not the answer. If he has to go we need a player already established, with class.

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4 minutes ago, rpfc said:

But seriously, you are absolutely right - he is not a top 15 player; our fortunes will rise and fall with our core group of players and our midfield.

What I know is that this team needs some outside skill and vision and the FD just have to get a replacement for the role that is earmarked for Watts. If they strike out then I would not trade him.

No emotions required.

It's all good mate. He is a very polarising player, and I am just a bit grumpy from a big day yesterday!!! Still can't believe tigers won.

But what I did take from the game is the crazy amount of pressure applied by the Tigers. It's almost like footy went back to the Swans 05 flag. ( The Roos one, I think that was 05).

I 100% agree we need outside skills, but you also need enough players to win the ball or pressure. I am not 100% sure we will get that from Wattsy.

Would love a Wattsy fairytale - hell a dees fairytale, but as good of a bloke that Watts is, if we can get value for him I think it's best for the club and JW to move now.

 

I honestly don't have a problem with the pro Watts argument, but good ol Demonland does lose the plot from time to time.

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, the fork said:

This thread has me reminiscing about the Travis Johnstone thread all those years ago.

'He's our best kick, the most talented player on our list' they said.

'He's popular amongst our group, it'll destroy the fabric of the club' they said.

'He'll carve it up at his new club. We'll regret ever trading him' they said.

'This is a rookie coach looking to make a statement unaware he's making a huge mistake' they said.

Who knows I might even have been one of 'them'. We all think we know what's best for club and player but the ones closest to the decision having to be made are the ones we are forced to trust, they too are the ones that will live with the decision and its consequences. I support the direction the club is taking. We've been crying out for someone to take the club by the scruff of the neck and give it a shake. We've asked much of Watts since being drafted and he still falls short of what we know he is capable of. Does that remind you of any other former number one draft picks?

What year did Travis Johnstone leave the club. How did we go after he left. 

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3 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

That is what has upset me as much as Jack going. 

It is one thing to be bagged by the media and fans.  Totally different when the coach and captain keep putting your weaknesses out there without balancing it with your strengths.  Both played the 'bad cop' but I can't see who the 'good cop' was.  Can't help but think they stamped his card fairly early in the season. 

So its fairly difficult for someone to give their all with that blowtorch from the inside.  That is no excuse for Jack for not following team rules.  I just think that resilience (for which he is renowned) can quickly turn to apathy (which seems to have happened) when relationships break down.  So he's gone.  

But in my book Goodwin and Jones have done themselves no favours with their negative public stance. 

Poor Jack Watts just needs a cuddle, toughen up princess. His weaknesses are self imposed there's nothing he couldn't improve on if he had the will to do so.

Even this trade scenario shows how weak willed he is - he could've said to the club "you honour my contract I'm going nowhere" and taken it on himself to prove he was a required player through his actions over preseason. He is not one to stand and fight.

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1 hour ago, Wells 11 said:

Im a Watts fan but feel as internally divided as this thread about the decision. Watching Watts kick the winning goal v pies was one of THE highlights of the season for me....seemed to right a few wrongs from the past. I, like many here, are invested in him. He has class and is definitely imporving.

Against that, when I watched the game yesterday, I was reminded about how  hard youve got be as a team to win a GF. Honestly I think Jack would hardly have got a kick. Even Taylor walker struggled and, with due respect to Watts,  he's not near that class. The game seems to be trending to smaller forward lines ( I feel again the pain of the choice of Weid over Curnow) and while I think Watts could win us ( or whoever he plays for) a few games in the home and away season I dont see him standing up in finals. 

If we trade him I want value for it...he's way more than a throw away. As I said Ive invested in him and like him so It hurts my heart a bit to say it..... but I think , if we're serious about a flag, hes a trade. Yesterdays game convinced me. 

Had a look at Melbourne v Richmond stats for JW Round 5 2017. 9 kicks 9 handballs and a goal. Yes, against Richmond where he would HARDLY GET A KICK in your opinion. Looked like much the same players in the Richmond team then as it was today. Maybe Tigers on drugs!!!

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On 9/28/2017 at 3:28 PM, DemonDave said:

Do you believe Hawthorn unceremoniously ousted loyal players in Mitchell, Lewis and now possibly Hodge, only for them to play on elsewhere? Or was that prudent list management?

Croad. they have moved many on.

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What are the knocks on his game : 

His preparation/doesn't come to play every week? Well that's still half our list because even after everything that's happened the players still don't get it.

His attack on the ball/contest? Whilst it has improved he's never going to go in like Viney does. But Watts brings what the majority of the list doesn't. Salems still got some way to go before he's got Watts covered. 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Poor Jack Watts just needs a cuddle, toughen up princess. His weaknesses are self imposed there's nothing he couldn't improve on if he had the will to do so.

Even this trade scenario shows how weak willed he is - he could've said to the club "you honour my contract I'm going nowhere" and taken it on himself to prove he was a required player through his actions over preseason. He is not one to stand and fight.

Really sad that you have so much hate and venom against a player who still is, a the moment, in the team that you allegedly support. Like to see you physically take on Jack. Or say that to his face. 

Edited by Bobby McKenzie
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On 9/28/2017 at 3:25 PM, DemonOX said:

If this blows up I will be incredibly pizzled off. 

We can not afford to go backwards AGAIN   

It will do my head in if that happens.

Goodwin better not set us back because of the possible fallout from this. 

If this blew up, then the players would have had the wrong attitude.

As we have had in the past, to allow soft play in our jumper. We are doing the right thing, for team, club, & the player himself, before its too late.

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Just now, Unleash Hell said:

It's all good mate. He is a very polarising player, and I am just a bit grumpy from a big day yesterday!!! Still can't believe tigers won.

But what I did take from the game is the crazy amount of pressure applied by the Tigers. It's almost like footy went back to the Swans 05 flag. ( The Roos one, I think that was 05).

I 100% agree we need outside skills, but you also need enough players to win the ball or pressure. I am not 100% sure we will get that from Wattsy.

Would love a Wattsy fairytale - hell a dees fairytale, but as good of a bloke that Watts is, if we can get value for him I think it's best for the club and JW to move now.

 

I honestly don't have a problem with the pro Watts argument, but good ol Demonland does lose the plot from time to time.

 

 

 

Can't lose something we never had...

I understand the frustration of many when they see a group of players from another club that is seen as commensurately talented as us take out the whole thing - and you are right it is their team ethos of frenetic pressure that they have fully committed to that is driving their success.

We had it going in the early part of the season and it fell away and I might dig deeper into why it fell away if I have some time to look at the numbers but we just looked tired tbh. And we had a few ill timed injuries and our forward line never settled - and that is where the frenzy of pressure needs to begin.

I think we can win the whole thing without Watts but I also am ambivalent about needing to 'send a message' to the playing group. The Tigers didn't need a message (Deledio leaving is not a message), they needed full belief in the direction, the ability and fitness to execute, and trust in their teammates to commit as much as the next man.

We can argue over the trust that Watts deserves to commit, that's fine, but as I am trying to scream into my monitor for the last week - removing that question mark is a really, really small part of closing the gap to the Tigers, the Swans, the Crows, et al. I think our best 6 players are a couple years away from those teams best 6, I think our depth are also behind those teams, we also seemed to run out of fuel, struggled with basic discipline, and we hadn't quite perfected how we want to play high risk handpass happy game plan of bringing the ball forward.

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25 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Poor Jack Watts just needs a cuddle, toughen up princess. His weaknesses are self imposed there's nothing he couldn't improve on if he had the will to do so.

Even this trade scenario shows how weak willed he is - he could've said to the club "you honour my contract I'm going nowhere" and taken it on himself to prove he was a required player through his actions over preseason. He is not one to stand and fight.

Perhaps he doesn't want his intentions to be played in the media, like some?

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21 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

What are the knocks on his game : 

Goes to ground far too easily in a contest.

Rarely wins one on one battles 

Rarely has a second or third effort.

I could add that he's not a great contested mark, but I came to grips with the fact he wasn't a true KPF years ago.

and I'm not a Jack Watts hater.

... but he's not on the table for those things but because of his preparation - which is not the same as not turning up to play.

Edited by grazman
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1 hour ago, Macca said:

Except Vickery was never a fan favourite ... every Tiger fan I know wanted him out not long after he arrived there.  

Same deal for Deledio ... seen as soft by nearly every Tiger fan I know.  But lets face it,  they don't get called ferals for nothing.

So obviously the club didn't know what they were doing keeping number 1 pick Deledio for 12 years, while he played 243 games with them..

 

Edited by Redleg

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51 minutes ago, Bobby McKenzie said:

Read between the lines Redleg. Look at his comments more thoroughly. Slagging in a polite way. I'm losing faith in Mr Goodwin as a coach. Fantastic player but coach? Not so sure. Bring back Roosy.

I was actually asking what he said.

So slagging is now what you can read between the lines. That means he is not actually using words to slag, but hidden meanings that need to be interpreted. Wow!

Also, as to bringing back Roosy, you should talk to some of the players, because they wouldn't agree.

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1 hour ago, Redleg said:

So obviously the club didn't know what they were doing keeping number 1 pick Deledio for 12 years.

 

I was commenting on how their supporters viewed him ... as others have mentioned,  a lot of fans are overemotional & irrational.  Of course I include myself in that area - on occasions :ph34r:

Sometimes fans do get it collectively right about the traits of certain players.  But it's a rare thing because bias plays such a big part.

People continually play favourites or have a need to have at least one player in the gun (whipping boy,  scapegoat)

I'm assuming that you and most others are aware of all that but some are unaware.

 

Edited by Macca
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57 minutes ago, Bobby McKenzie said:

We get a pick for Watts. Wow, that's adequate replacement for JW. Not!  I certainly hope we would not accept any draft pick. Pig in a poke is not the answer. If he has to go we need a player already established, with class.

Can't agree more Bobby.  Watts is at a level that he can potentially help turn a match...IF he applies himself.  Can't say that about too many players, especially on our list with maybe Tracc rising as the only other potential star going forward along with Clarry. The problem the club has is they no doubt asked him to step up this year and he appeared to fail them at the first hurdle in the off season, for whatever reason.

So the club and player have probably now lost faith in each other sadly.

But It always takes two to tango.

Now we have a senior player who failed to deliver and a coach that failed to get the best out of him.  If we let him go for just a pick I'm afraid we have definitely lost on this one.

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3 hours ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

This quote says a lot to me from Don Pyke after yesterday's game.

"One of the things that is very hard from a coaching viewpoint is to provide effort," Pyke said. 

"The players are responsible for effort.

"We try and encourage that, we try and demand that.

Yep. Effort and Attitude

Coach can only teach and encourage

Players are the only ones who can do it. 

Leadership must demand it. 

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It's become absolutely clear that Watts is being kicked out of the club. There may be more to the story than his attitude and intensity. I have heard rumours but only from people outside the club that are completely unsubstantiated. What ever the reasons, he has been shown the door. Unfortunately under such circumstances we cannot expect good trade value. I am a Watts fan and find this a difficult pill to swallow.

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3 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Yep. Effort and Attitude

Coach can only teach and encourage

Players are the only ones who can do it. 

Leadership must demand it. 

At least we are (at times) showing that effort & attitude.  Better than never showing it all (I could name a number of entire seasons where we were bereft of effort & attitude)

But we also have to include other traits such as an excellent base level of talent,  real energy,  application and a will to win.  And great coaching and top admin.

And then we have to do all that every single week.  It's quite an ask but we've just seen the Tigers & Bulldogs do it.

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On 28 September 2017 at 6:38 PM, rpfc said:

The most ironic thing about all this?

If Jack Watts was at another club, he would be the exact type of skillset we would try to get at a bargain price.

'I could get him back to 2016 form' Goodwin would tell himself...

As Roos was so good at luring other coaches into, with Howe and Frawley.

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9 minutes ago, Grand New Flag said:

It's become absolutely clear that Watts is being kicked out of the club. There may be more to the story than his attitude and intensity. I have heard rumours but only from people outside the club that are completely unsubstantiated. What ever the reasons, he has been shown the door. Unfortunately under such circumstances we cannot expect good trade value. I am a Watts fan and find this a difficult pill to swallow.

Thank you for the update GNF.

I too am a Watts fan. However, I can come to terms if the club wishes to trade him. Although, if they give him up for a bag of chips I think they have rocks in their heads and I'll be infuriated.

If it were Essenscum, I know they would force the hand of an opposing club to get a late first round pick (or at the least an early second round pick). I truly hope we don't fold easily.

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3 hours ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

This quote says a lot to me from Don Pyke after yesterday's game.

"One of the things that is very hard from a coaching viewpoint is to provide effort," Pyke said. 

"The players are responsible for effort.

"We try and encourage that, we try and demand that.

A bit rich coming from Pyke who sat on his hands and didn't make a single move to try and change the course of the game.

Absolutely zero effort from the coaching box yesterday, just thought he should stick to his plan and it would turnaround.

It didn't Don...hope you had a pleasant day at the footy.

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26 minutes ago, Grand New Flag said:

It's become absolutely clear that Watts is being kicked out of the club. There may be more to the story than his attitude and intensity. I have heard rumours but only from people outside the club that are completely unsubstantiated. What ever the reasons, he has been shown the door. Unfortunately under such circumstances we cannot expect good trade value. I am a Watts fan and find this a difficult pill to swallow.

Surely he has some value even at least for a half decent player 

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19 minutes ago, Grand New Flag said:

It's become absolutely clear that Watts is being kicked out of the club. There may be more to the story than his attitude and intensity. I have heard rumours but only from people outside the club that are completely unsubstantiated. What ever the reasons, he has been shown the door. Unfortunately under such circumstances we cannot expect good trade value. I am a Watts fan and find this a difficult pill to swallow.

Give it a break mate...it's a bit colourful saying Jack is being "kicked out of the club"

Stop casting aspersions on Jack based on what you say are unsubstantiated rumours.

Fair enough if the club want to move him on based on his footy output and/or the ability in their mind to trade up...but don't add something else to the mix then backtrack by talking unsubstantiated rumours from outside the club.

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34 minutes ago, Grand New Flag said:

It's become absolutely clear that Watts is being kicked out of the club. There may be more to the story than his attitude and intensity. I have heard rumours but only from people outside the club that are completely unsubstantiated. What ever the reasons, he has been shown the door. Unfortunately under such circumstances we cannot expect good trade value. I am a Watts fan and find this a difficult pill to swallow.

Obviously the rumours that you've heard paint JW in a bad light. If that's the case, why would you find it a bitter pill to swallow if we traded him?

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