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Trade Jack Watts or not?  

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  1. 1. Do we trade Jack Watts?

    • Yes.
      142
    • No.
      311


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47 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Goodwin has been at the MFC for 4 years with JW and is now a 2nd year Coach.

Reckon he might know a bit more about JW than some on here.

I wonder if he'll apply the same torch to  BK, JKH, Bugg, Vince, Gawn, Wagner, Harmes, Salem, ANB, Stetch, Garlett ?

He'd have to know them pretty well as well ;)

Jack's not without fault. He has a lot of team mates

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21 minutes ago, DavidNeitz9 said:

Seriously ?

Sad part is that they have 600 odd signing it.

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7 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

I wonder if he'll apply the same torch to  BK, JKH, Bugg, Vince, Gawn, Wagner, Harmes, Salem, ANB, Stetch, Garlett ?

He'd have to know them pretty well as well ;)

Jack's not without fault. He has a lot of team mates

Why woudn't he BB ? Goody has no vendetta against Watts, he's not out to get him. From what i understand they get along very well.

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Well it appears i was wrong about the club not trading our best kick and most skillful player.

Personally on an objective level i don't agree with the decision. But i support Goody's right to make the decision and also understand it given intensity is clearly a non negotiable for Goody and Watts has broken that rule once too often.

But on a subjective, emotional level i would be absolutely gutted for Jack to leave the dees and just hate the thought of him in another club's jumper. Jack, for all his flaws, is one of my all time favourite players. I want to see him holding a premiership cup. For Melbourne.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

I wonder if he'll apply the same torch to  BK, JKH, Bugg, Vince, Gawn, Wagner, Harmes, Salem, ANB, Stetch, Garlett ?

He'd have to know them pretty well as well ;)

Jack's not without fault. He has a lot of team mates

Well let's analyse that a bit.

BK I think will be gone by trade or delisted by list lodgment time.

JKH is working on his game and had massive numbers at Casey, getting his own ball, playing in the mid field over a number of weeks.

Bugg can't be accused of being soft, has a go, puts some angst in opposition players and needs to work on eliminating stupidity, but was part of the team when we were aggressive and up and running. IMO is not in best 22 but is handy to have for depth.

Vince will play his last year and reportedly is ok if form means he plays at Casey and won't sook.

Gawn is our number 1 ruck who was badly injured and who is AA and can play. Some of his poor play was actually players not going to right spots to win his tap outs. Oliver had no problem.

Wagner is a limited player who could improve, but don't think he needs a blowtorch from the Coach.

Harmes is a goer who needs to work on his disposal. Do you think he will improve with a blow torch?

Salem and Billy could use a bit of a blowtorch in respect to more involvement and attack on the ball, but both have great disposal.

ANB has worked harder than most and attacks the contest, has a weakness in disposal and a blowtorch would have no effect on that.

Garlett showed early season passion and pressure and was clearly affected late in the year by the loss of a family member. I don't think you blowtorch the Garletts of this world, I think you just encourage them to be their best.

One last thought, if you add JW to the list above, who would be the most passive, non aggressive, weakest contested ball player in that list and who has been on the list the longest and made the least improvement in their all round game?

Edited by Redleg
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56 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Maybe the media department is on holidays...

...gone missing after the round 23 communications debacle. 

Re communications around Watts:

  • Beveridge had it right with Stringer.  Do the deadly deed.  Wear the backlash for a few days and everyone moves on. 
  • Instead we have a captain and coach dragging out a vague, negative narrative about Watts.  Then the news he is being traded leaks and gains momentum, supporters raising petitions, ex club characters and team mates publicly support him, reports of conflict among FD decision makers.  Unless someone at the club comes out and says something akin to Beveridge this will drag out for weeks.  All very messy.

So the question you imply is very valid:  Where is the media department?  Who is managing the public face of the club atm?

Answer...?

I was beginning to think mfc had become a well run and well disciplined club off the field: internal harmony, no leaks, consistent public messaging, strong leadership etc.

Since round 23 that solidity off field does not seem as strong as I thought it was.

Perhaps it's because it's a decision that doesn't have universal support, even among the coaches, as others (such as Ox) have intimated. Perhaps it's just a Goody/Macca/Viney thing. Perhaps the media dept are struggling to get a message together that will satisfy everyone who needs to be satisfied.

And I can't imagine that those who run the club would be ecstatic at the prospect of losing their most prominent media presence and public face, their "go-to guy" for media & corporate events (apparently Jack's strange interview and re-enactment of his QB goal was part of an advertising promotion that will involve other players), their best representative of the MFC to the public, the player most loved by their junior supporters, who does a huge amount of outreach in schools & holiday clinics and so on. Perhaps a lot of members have complained to them.

Perhaps it's as well that this has come to the fore during GF week. We'll all have to adjust in many ways to a post-Watts MFC. We'd better get our stories straight by next week.

Edited by Akum
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6 minutes ago, binman said:

Well it appears i was wrong about the club not trading our best kick and most skillful player.

Personally on an objective level i don't agree with the decision.

 

 

6

bin, you can't possibly judge the decision until you see what we get back.

If it's a pick in the draft WE USE post 20 I'll spew but I strongly suspect it will be for something much more acceptable.

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4 minutes ago, Redleg said:

 

One last thought, if you add JW to the list above, who would be the most passive, non aggressive, weakest contested ball player in that list and who has been on the list the longest and made the least improvement in their all round game?

probably the same bloke who'd kicked the most goals and had most assists..probably

 

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1 minute ago, Vogon Poetry said:

bin, you can't possibly judge the decision until you see what we get back.

If it's a pick in the draft WE USE post 20 I'll spew but I strongly suspect it will be for something much more acceptable.

This is a very fair outlook. And I do await its outcome. 

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47 minutes ago, DavidNeitz9 said:

That's quite an assumption. You don't know Goodwin and you have no idea why he wants to trade Jack. I don't understand why supporters think they know more about whats going on with Watts than the bloke who coaches him.

And for the same reasons, you'd think Roos knows far more about him than Goodwin. You can choose to believe Goodwin above all these people if you like. But among all the questions are being raised, that's getting harder to do. 

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Just now, Akum said:

And for the same reasons, you'd think Roos knows far more about him than Goodwin. You can choose to believe Goodwin above all these people if you like. But among all the questions are being raised, that's getting harder to do. 

It's not that i choose to believe everything Goodwin says, just saying that that he knows far more about Watts than anyone who is not directly invovled with the club. Goodwin is no fool.

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18 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Well let's analyse that a bit.

BK I think will be gone by trade or delisted by list lodgment time.

JKH is working on his game and had massive numbers at Casey, getting his own ball, playing in the mid field over a number of weeks.

Bugg can't be accused of being soft, has a go, puts some angst in opposition players and needs to work on eliminating stupidity, but was part of the team when we were aggressive and up and running. IMO is not in best 22 but is handy to have for depth.

Vince will play his last year and reportedly is ok if form means he plays at Casey and won't sook.

Gawn is our number 1 ruck who was badly injured and who is AA and can play. Some of his poor play was actually players not going to right spots to win his tap outs. Oliver had no problem.

Wagner is a limited player who could improve, but don't think he needs a blowtorch from the Coach.

Harmes is a goer who needs to work on his disposal. Do you think he will improve with a blow torch?

Salem and Billy could use a bit of a blowtorch in respect to more involvement and attack on the ball, but both have great disposal.

ANB has worked harder than most and attacks the contest, has a weakness in disposal and a blowtorch would have no effect on that.

Garlett showed early season passion and pressure and was clearly affected late in the year by the loss of a family member. I don't think you blowtorch the Garletts of this world, I think you just encourage them to be their best.

One last thought, if you add JW to the list above, who would be the most passive, non aggressive, weakest contested ball player in that list and who has been on the list the longest and made the least improvement in their all round game?

JW was injured too

Before his SEVERE hamstring tear, he was having a great year

Rushed in before he was ready - the medicos got it wrong

 

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19 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

probably the same bloke who'd kicked the most goals and had most assists..probably

 

The list below makes interesting reading. Sorry for the capital letters it's the bloody computer.

JW is number 19 on the list for average tackles. Billy who most would consider non aggressive has more average tackles than JW. Think of the Tiger's forward pressure. This is a must in today's game. The Tigers are not a star studded team but they have manic pressure.

Tom Mac a part time forward kicked more goals than JW and Melksham another part time forward nearly kicked more. Petracca another forward/mid also kicked more. Jeffy of course was well ahead. Jesse hardly played.

Not that he has to lead the goal kicking, but it shows we have other players who can kick goals too.

Obviously there are a lot of things that players have to do at a club and when you don't do several you are on thin ice.

 

SEASON 
2017                                    
 
 
 
Player Kicks Handballs Disposals Marks Hit-outs Frees For Frees Agst Tackles Goals Behinds AFL Fantasy
  TOT AVG TOT AVG TOT AVG TOT AVG TOT AVG TOT AVG TOT AVG TOT AVG TOT AVG TOT AVG TOT AVG
1Clayton Oliver 177 8 482 21.9 659 30 68 3.1 1 0 20 0.9 40 1.8 152 6.9 4 0.2 3 0.1 2235 101.6
2Jordan Lewis 216 11.4 284 14.9 500 26.3 93 4.9 0 0 23 1.2 17 0.9 47 2.5 5 0.3 3 0.2 1688 88.8
3Michael Hibberd 305 16.9 188 10.4 493 27.4 97 5.4 0 0 18 1 11 0.6 23 1.3 1 0.1 1 0.1 1666 92.6
4Dom Tyson 224 11.8 256 13.5 480 25.3 78 4.1 0 0 12 0.6 22 1.2 75 3.9 5 0.3 9 0.5 1703 89.6
5Nathan Jones 207 12.9 232 14.5 439 27.4 63 3.9 0 0 17 1.1 11 0.7 86 5.4 10 0.6 6 0.4 1668 104.3
6Jack Viney 151 8.4 264 14.7 415 23.1 44 2.4 0 0 28 1.6 18 1 126 7 6 0.3 5 0.3 1632 90.7
7Christian Petracca 181 8.2 233 10.6 414 18.8 72 3.3 0 0 11 0.5 17 0.8 54 2.5 26 1.2 6 0.3 1563 71
8Bernie Vince 263 13.8 140 7.4 403 21.2 73 3.8 0 0 12 0.6 18 0.9 55 2.9 2 0.1 4 0.2 1482 78
9Jayden Hunt 254 11.5 142 6.5 396 18 85 3.9 0 0 15 0.7 15 0.7 69 3.1 7 0.3 5 0.2 1594 72.5
10Tom McDonald 227 10.3 161 7.3 388 17.6 139 6.3 53 2.4 19 0.9 32 1.5 50 2.3 23 1 7 0.3 1741 79.1
11Alex Neal-Bullen 204 10.7 155 8.2 359 18.9 61 3.2 0 0 9 0.5 7 0.4 87 4.6 15 0.8 9 0.5 1540 81.1
12Christian Salem 219 13.7 124 7.8 343 21.4 73 4.6 0 0 15 0.9 7 0.4 54 3.4 5 0.3 0 0 1364 85.3
13Jake Melksham 202 10.6 116 6.1 318 16.7 84 4.4 0 0 13 0.7 21 1.1 48 2.5 21 1.1 6 0.3 1364 71.8
14Neville Jetta 151 6.9 164 7.5 315 14.3 94 4.3 0 0 19 0.9 11 0.5 68 3.1 3 0.1 0 0 1339 60.9
15Oscar McDonald 192 9.6 116 5.8 308 15.4 108 5.4 0 0 13 0.7 16 0.8 32 1.6 0 0 0 0 1225 61.3
16James Harmes 138 8.1 156 9.2 294 17.3 50 2.9 0 0 12 0.7 14 0.8 57 3.4 14 0.8 12 0.7 1170 68.8
17Jack Watts 129 8.1 122 7.6 251 15.7 77 4.8 53 3.3 10 0.6 9 0.6 42 2.6 22 1.4 9 0.6 1207 75.4
18Mitch Hannan 138 6.9 110 5.5 248 12.4 49 2.5 0 0 21 1.1 13 0.7 61 3.1 22 1.1 10 0.5 1149 57.5
19Cameron Pedersen 119 7.9 124 8.3 243 16.2 73 4.9 147 9.8 15 1 17 1.1 53 3.5 16 1.1 8 0.5 1251 83.4
20Jeff Garlett 171 8.1 65 3.1 236 11.2 56 2.7 0 0 17 0.8 9 0.4 74 3.5 42 2 28 1.3 1377 65.6
21Sam Frost 127 7.9 89 5.6 216 13.5 61 3.8 3 0.2 15 0.9 18 1.1 40 2.5 1 0.1 0 0 872 54.5
22Billy Stretch 57 6.3 107 11.9 164 18.2 30 3.3 0 0 6 0.7 3 0.3 30 3.3 3 0.3 4 0.4 614 68.2
23Max Gawn 77 5.9 83 6.4 160 12.3 46 3.5 466 35.8 18 1.4 25 1.9 36 2.8 4 0.3 4 0.3 1116 85.8
24Josh Wagner 63 7 80 8.9 143 15.9 21 2.3 0 0 4 0.4 3 0.3 25 2.8 2 0.2 1 0.1 520 57.8
25Jesse Hogan 91 9.1 51 5.1 142 14.2 51 5.1 0 0 9 0.9 5 0.5 15 1.5 20 2 6 0.6 708 70.8
26Tomas Bugg 70 7 69 6.9 139 13.9 29 2.9 0 0 11 1.1 7 0.7 31 3.1 7 0.7 12 1.2 603 60.3
27Jay Kennedy-Harris 45 7.5 51 8.5 96 16 18 3 0 0 2 0.3 5 0.8 23 3.8 0 0 1 0.2 371 61.8
28Angus Brayshaw 53 10.6 42 8.4 95 19 28 5.6 0 0 1 0.2 1 0.2 12 2.4 2 0.4 1 0.2 386 77.2
29Dean Kent 56 9.3 34 5.7 90 15 27 4.5 0 0 8 1.3 2 0.3 13 2.2 7 1.2 6 1 419 69.8
30Sam Weideman 24 3.4 32 4.6 56 8 18 2.6 0 0 6 0.9 7 1 12 1.7 3 0.4 4 0.6 245 35
31Jack Trengove 17 8.5 12 6 29 14.5 4 2 0 0 0 0 2 1 4 2 0 0 0 0 97 48.5
32Joel Smith 12 4 14 4.7 26 8.7 2 0.7 0 0 1 0.3 4 1.3 8 2.7 0 0 0 0 91 30.3
33Corey Maynard 5 5 13 13 18 18 0 0 0 0 3 3 0 0 7 7 1 1 0 0 78 78
34Jake Spencer 7 3.5 10 5 17 8.5 4 2 28 14 4 2 4 2 5 2.5 2 1 0 0 105 52.5
35Mitch White 5 5 6 6 11 11 4 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 43 43
36Timothy Smith 7 3.5 3 1.5 10 5 3 1.5 3 1.5 2 1 2 1 6 3 1 0.5 2 1 67 33.5
Edited by Redleg

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38 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

I wonder if he'll apply the same torch to  BK, JKH, Bugg, Vince, Gawn, Wagner, Harmes, Salem, ANB, Stetch, Garlett ?

He'd have to know them pretty well as well ;)

Jack's not without fault. He has a lot of team mates

Including those of our team leaders who haven't bothered to improve their disposal for a few years now.

In contrast to the Crouch brothers, who have helped to propel their team into flag favouritism by doing just that in one season.

Again, seems some faults are tolerated while others are sanctioned.

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I'd like to keep Watts but if the decision is made to move him on,  the sky won't be falling as a result.  We definitely need some outside runners who can use the ball well ... but those outside runners still have to 'go' when its their turn.   And there lies the problem with Jack

And he won't be suddenly turning into an A grade talent elsewhere.  I can see him doing 'ok' elsewhere (if he is used properly)  He's just not that good a player,  never was and almost certainly he never will be. 

I view sport in a practical way ... so,  I'm now looking at what we can get for Jack in a trade.  If there is genuine interest from a number of clubs and they genuinely want him,  we can win out in a trade.

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Jack Watts is a fantastic finisher and sets up play beautifully in the forward 50. His ice cool finishing goal v Colllingwood earlier in the year shows just what he can do. The chink in his armour are the numbers of would-be marks which still  bounce off his chest.  He may well go on to become a great player at Port Adelaide where teammates will look for him and let him beThe Distributor. He does not get this grace at Melbourne, as years of un-honoured leads on the forward line would attest to. 

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30 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

probably the same bloke who'd kicked the most goals and had most assists..probably

 

... and who is invariably called upon to cover gaps wherever we have them, no matter how physically unsuited he is to the position

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I certainly don't want Jack to go.  He is a very talented footballer and a popular player at the club.  The problem is, that in the dictionary alongside the word "lackadaisical" is a photo of J. Watts. 

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11 minutes ago, bush demon said:

Jack Watts is a fantastic finisher and sets up play beautifully in the forward 50. His ice cool finishing goal v Colllingwood earlier in the year shows just what he can do. The chink in his armour are the numbers of would-be marks which still  bounce off his chest.  He may well go on to become a great player at Port Adelaide where teammates will look for him and let him beThe Distributor. He does not get this grace at Melbourne, as years of un-honoured leads on the forward line would attest to

Perhaps the two are related

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13 minutes ago, Macca said:

I'd like to keep Watts but if the decision is made to move him on,  the sky won't be falling as a result.  We definitely need some outside runners who can use the ball well ... but those outside runners still have to 'go' when its their turn.   And there lies the problem with Jack

And he won't be suddenly turning into an A grade talent elsewhere.  I can see him doing 'ok' elsewhere (if he is used properly)  He's just not that good a player,  never was and almost certainly he never will be. 

I view sport in a practical way ... so,  I'm now looking at what we can get for Jack in a trade.  If there is genuine interest from a number of clubs and they genuinely want him,  we can win out in a trade.

I agree with the concept Macca,  but it doesn't always happen.  eg Howe was on his way to the GC when he decided to side step and go to the Pies.  That left mfc in a pickle to do a trade quickly and get the best we could from the Pies, not the best we could on the market.  That trade didn't turn out too well for us.

From a Jack perspective he is managed by Paul Connors who will make sure the best outcome for Jack in albeit less than ideal circumstances.  Neither Connors nor Watts have any obligation to do the 'right thing by the club'.  I believe, if the club is getting rid of Jack then it has forfeited its right to influence where he goes.   Like Howe, I do not hold out high hopes of us getting the best trade possible. 

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1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

I wonder if he'll apply the same torch to  BK, JKH, Bugg, Vince, Gawn, Wagner, Harmes, Salem, ANB, Stetch, Garlett ?

He'd have to know them pretty well as well ;)

Jack's not without fault. He has a lot of team mates

Been reading your thoughts with interest of late, BB. I think the effect you mention may come from both trading Jack Watts at the same time as we cut Jack Trengove. One has talent to burn, one has an unquestionable work ethic, but both end up out of here, it seems. In other words, neither talent nor hard work alone will keep you on the list.

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2 hours ago, Redleg said:

Goodwin has been at the MFC for 4 years with JW and is now a 2nd year Coach.

Reckon he might know a bit more about JW than some on here.

3 years into a 5 year contract and this is the 1st as senior coach.

 

It is barely 12 months since Goodwin was involved in re signing Jack for 3 more years (Roos departed some 6 weeks later so input was limited, if any).  Now, after his first year as a rookie coach he decides to move Jack on.

I do not pretend to know what goes on behind the doors.  But I feel it was reasonable to ask a question about Goodwin's willingness to take on the challenge of getting the best from Jack, which was the essence of my post.

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40 minutes ago, jumbo returns said:

JW was injured too

Before his SEVERE hamstring tear, he was having a great year

Rushed in before he was ready - the medicos got it wrong

 

and you know this because...?

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