Farewell Jack Watts

[Vogon Poetry 2,095]

19 hours ago, McQueen said:

 

You can either accept or reject what I've said.

I will however add one more thing. Did you not get the feeling that the love the supporters gave Watts was similarly shared by the playing group? Do you at all consider just how that must be influencing them and moulding their behaviours around the club?

 

 

1

McQueen I'm not debating with you Watts performance or history as a player.  I was questioning your attribution of motive to the support Jack received by those in attendance at the B&F and offered you some alternative reasons for why he may have received support on the night.

He may also have received support because like me, many would think that the club has managed this process exceptionally poorly.  For those that ask how it could have been done differently cast your minds back to when Brock left, it was a very similar situation.

And I've no intention of including myself in the general debate on Watts.  What on earth could be said that hasn't been stated by many over 150 pages of posts?  I will say though that when history is written the Jack Watt's chapter is not one our club should have any sense of pride over.  Rarely has a player been treated so poorly by so many.

 

 

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

Just now, Biffen said:

Jung would have referred to it as the shadow.

So thanks for your input.

Unhelpful as it usually is.

You're a piece of work Biff. Go pull another conspiracy theory out of your butt.

[At the break of Gawn 3,474]

5 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I listened to the entire SEN interview that these articles are based on and Connors comments were directed at the Dogs.

He never "blasted" Melbourne whatsoever.

You'll note that the article linked below is also a take from that SEN interview and correctly the author refers to comments displeasure at the Dogs and NOT Melbourne.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-10-10/stringer-camp-slams-dogs-over-total-backflip

Agree on this. The only inclination I got from listening to the interview is that Goodwin harped on Watts' weaknesses and rarely praised anything good he did - a method that has never worked for JW. The only other point was that Jack and Jake were both blindsided by the their respective club's decision.

[Gator 16,891]

1 minute ago, At the break of Gawn said:

Agree on this. The only inclination I got from listening to the interview is that Goodwin harped on Watts' weaknesses and rarely praised anything good he did - a method that has never worked for JW. The only other point was that Jack and Jake were both blindsided by the their respective club's decision.

1. Club has run out of patience.  After 9 years and 150 games there should be games he dominates.  He has cameos but NEVER "dominates" games.

2. Yes, Jack was surprised, which is telling in itself.

3. Connors mentioned his elite pressure stats.  I don't care what the stats say.  I've watched Watts for years and his pressure is anything but elite.

[beelzebub 22,225]

27 minutes ago, Nasher said:

I simply took it to be nonsense.  *shrug*

For a start, it's not Goodwin's call alone anyway.  Goodwin doesn't give off the impression of an overbearing dictator to me.  Does he to you?

So much of the conversation on this forum has gone like this:

MFC: Jack Watts might be traded for <simple, clear reasons>
Demonland faithful: Nah, it's not that, it's because <convoluted conspiracy theories involving character judgements,  accusations of personal malice towards the player, and assumptions of complete stupidity on behalf of the management group>

Occam's Razor has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, and it's a theory I subscribe to.

I've never supposed it's Goodwin's call alone. It''s very much my thinking that it most certainly isn't.

Simple, clear and Reason  may go together but not always. Speaking of "always" Occams Razor neither suggest it is always right nor necessarily the quickest to the truth. It only suggest to take on board no more assumption than necessary. Brings us to 'assumption'     Can be murky ground as well.

Im just going to watch and wait now. Cheers

[Binmans PA 25,890]

1 hour ago, rjay said:

There's another side to the story here 'A F'...

My argument is not about barracking for Jack but is more along the lines of is it the right move for the MFC.

I think that's a fair question and argument to have.

Yep, fair enough, mate. That's more of the grey that I was referring to. That is a fair debate, but how many are having that debate?

I'd say it is the right call if those closest to Jack say it is. So I'd defer to backing the club on this one. Of course, feel free to disagree.

[Dirts 429]

I wish they would just get the deal done. Boring!

[nutbean 8,837]

39 minutes ago, ProDee said:

 

3. Connors mentioned his elite pressure stats.  I don't care what the stats say.  I've watched Watts for years and his pressure is anything but elite.

I sometimes wonder from which planet stats are pulled from. I think there are qualities that Watts has that are obvious to all. Elite pressuring isn't one of them.

[mo64 5,208]

1 hour ago, Scoop Junior said:

How easily 2013 is forgotten.

A time when we would regularly lose by 10+ goals, when matches were over at 1/4 time, when supporters came to games knowing we had almost no chance to win, when drafting and development of players had been shambolic, when many players were wanting to leave, when no players from opposition clubs with any modicum of talent wanted anything to do with us, when the culture was so poor that players didn't even know the level of work required to be a professional AFL player, when the talent on our list was so far below AFL standard that Terlich and Jones finished top 4 in our best and fairest...

This club was in an extremely precarious position only four years ago.

I'm not going to go into the things Roos has done, but in the space of four years (one year under Goodwin) we are now a team that is attractive to elite young talent, players want to stay, is expected to play finals, tough and competitive, has exciting young talent, can develop young players and can beat any opposition side on any given day.

The turnaround is quite remarkable and anyone of us would have grabbed this in a second if offered it back in 2013.

It's not just Roos. And Roos has never said it was just about him - he was very quick to point out it's about having good people. But Roos was a significant part of the turnaround and did everything we could've expected from him.

The "easiest coaching job in the world". Funny that, because at the time Roos was appointed it was being described as one of the hardest and one to avoid if you wanted a career in coaching. As I said, just think back to what we were in 2013.

I don't disagree with much of what you say.

You talk about culture and levels of work. Isn't that the exact reason why Watts has been shunted? And yet Roos comes out and says that you should look at what he can do, rather than the negatives. 

I stand by my opinion that Roos is full of hot air.

 

[Bobby McKenzie 2,168]

12 hours ago, bing181 said:

Argumentum Ad Ignorantium

Chytry zadek

[Bobby McKenzie 2,168]

1 hour ago, jumbo returns said:

Not Roos

Me too, not Roos, just Goodwin and his cohorts.

[rpfc 27,386]

1 hour ago, Nasher said:

What were you saying to @Wisebloodabout not choosing to engage the most ridiculous argument on the other side of the fence?  Clearly the one you've just quoted is mostly nonsense. (I know - I just did the same thing with Biff)

Touché.

[Dr.D 1,771]

agree 100% with you Scoop Junior. People need some perspective here. Sure we missed out on finals this year but people do forget just how bad we were. Most of our games were over at 1/4 time. Whether it be 5 goals to 0, 7 goals to 2..etc. we were pathetic. Roos brought us back to relevancy. People should be grateful!

[Roost It 1,434]

For those who want him to stay would you dream of recruiting him with his record. I know I wouldn't.

[jumbo returns 6,484]

14 minutes ago, Roost It said:

For those who want him to stay would you dream of recruiting him with his record. I know I wouldn't.

Yep - I would

Silky smooth delivery i50 to a leading forward

Bliss

[CityDee 738]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/dogs-demons-want-it-both-ways-on-jake-stringer-and-jack-watts-says-their-manager-20171010-gyy4b6.html

[FarNorthernD 5,839]

20 minutes ago, Roost It said:

For those who want him to stay would you dream of recruiting him with his record. I know I wouldn't.

If ever the penny will drop with Jack it would be now. If you are a club that backs their footy department to get the best out of him then you could find a potential match winner in the bargain bin.

Really the worse scenario for his new club is for him to 'only' get back to his early 2017 season form. 

[ChewyOnMyBoot 152]

1 hour ago, At the break of Gawn said:

Agree on this. The only inclination I got from listening to the interview is that Goodwin harped on Watts' weaknesses and rarely praised anything good he did - a method that has never worked for JW. The only other point was that Jack and Jake were both blindsided by the their respective club's decision.

You got it. Spot on. Sadly, the absolute reverse of last year. Jack was 'pumped' about Goodwin taking over.

[Akum 2,660]

3 hours ago, mo64 said:

BS. He was talked into the job by PJ, and offered a fortune to take it. The reason why PJ was keen to get him was because Roos would not get the same media or public scrutiny as a first time coach if the club had poor results. Through the poor results, we were gifted high draft picks to acquire young talent, which is Jason Taylor's role. We already had Hogan and Viney from Neeld's time.

And during his time, Roos was never able to lure a big name to the club. Hibberd, Melksham and Vince came to the club through Goodwin's connection, and Lewis through Viney. You could say Garlett, but he was on the scrapheap at Carlton. So the core of the list is primarily the remnants of Neeld, the acquisitions by Goodwin/Viney, and the recruiting by Taylor.

The easiest coaching job in the world is one where you nominate your ending date, and leave before the job is finished. Then he has the nerve to be critical of the club, and especially Goodwin, who he annointed. By your reasoning, if Goodwin is a failure, then so is Roos.

Comedy gold.

[Stretch Johnson 2,568]

27 minutes ago, Roost It said:

For those who want him to stay would you dream of recruiting him with his record. I know I wouldn't.

Funnily enough i would

Despite the fact that I support the decision of the club in requesting that he look for a trade

[McQueen 17,862]

1 hour ago, Vogon Poetry said:

McQueen I'm not debating with you Watts performance or history as a player.  I was questioning your attribution of motive to the support Jack received by those in attendance at the B&F and offered you some alternative reasons for why he may have received support on the night.

He may also have received support because like me, many would think that the club has managed this process exceptionally poorly.  For those that ask how it could have been done differently cast your minds back to when Brock left, it was a very similar situation.

And I've no intention of including myself in the general debate on Watts.  What on earth could be said that hasn't been stated by many over 150 pages of posts?  I will say though that when history is written the Jack Watt's chapter is not one our club should have any sense of pride over.  Rarely has a player been treated so poorly by so many.

 

 

I can't understand why you're so keen on creating the disparity in our debate as they're clearly intertwined. 

We've all played our part in why Watts appears to have been treated so poorly (your words) by expecting too much. The media have been significant drivers by constantly placing him under the microscope as well. However, nobody can deny that Jack himself has been the main offender over his career at the MFC in why so many of us are underwhelmed and are left wondering why he gets so much love. It's only because he's a good guy - not because he's been a valuable player for the club.

The applause he received at the B&F was heartening for those of you have a differing opinion. Mine is based around performance whereas yours and many other supporters is based on him being a great guy and allegedly treated poorly by the current Admin.

As far as the managing of this process goes, I can't make a fair assessment of it as yet for only one real reason.

It's not finished yet.

The club and LG have taken the emotion out of this decision and are moving forward with what appears to be a pretty clear consensus that's it's in the best interest for the club.

It's really that simple in my opinion.

But anyway, thanks Wattsy.

[Biffen 12,298]

6 minutes ago, Stretch Johnson said:

Funnily enough i would

Despite the fact that I support the decision of the club in requesting that he look for a trade

With that logic I'm going to put the house on Winx .

But only for a place.

[Ethan Tremblay 28,285]

2 hours ago, Nasher said:

Summary: Goodwin hates Watts because Watts is tall and good looking, and Goodwin was an ugly, late developing runt.

Sorry Biff, but this ranks up there with the biggest load of garbage in this thread, and the competition is fierce.  Are people wildly missing the point on purpose or what?

You thought Biff was serious?? 

[sue 8,409]

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

1. Club has run out of patience.  After 9 years and 150 games there should be games he dominates.  He has cameos but NEVER "dominates" games.

This is why I keep harping on about failed messiah issues.  How many players does any club have, particuarly a mediocre one like ours (cum basket case) that dominate games?  The number is countable on the fingers of a mutilated hand. You don't sack the other players in the squad. 

If Watts was just accepted as a mediocre player who can play lots of roles we wouldn't be having this debate.   We may still support the FD in thinking his best value is a trade or in our usual know-all wisdom say they are wrong, or at least worry that they are wrong (ie. me), but the debate would not be this bitter and at times ludicrous on both sides.

29 minutes ago, Roost It said:

For those who want him to stay would you dream of recruiting him with his record. I know I wouldn't.

Obviously you are not in the FD of the Cats, Swans, Port.....  

But of course staying wth the Demons (as distinct from being recruited by another club) is now close to impossible.

[robbiefrom13 877]

Seems there are some who would "dream of recruiting him".  

Dangerfield?   Roos?  Hinkley, etc etc.  Lot of interest...

Dangerfield has first-hand experience, from this year, of how Watts could strip him of the ball and deliver...  

This IS, clearly, about how we judge people.  Watts is a larger-than-life PERSON, and has attracted opinions like a magnet ever since he curved in that first goal for Sandringham.  I think he has a charismatic presence, and the Moloneys, Neelds, Joneses of the club have never understood his particular differentness.  But, in their unimaginative focus on what they themselves were, they couldn't accept and embrace the obvious excellences he brought, in skill, intelligence and human culture (morale - like Gawn).  Some would say a club needs such people in the goldfishbowl.  

Some historian once observed that nobody studying American History had any idea whether or not Abraham Lincoln balanced the budget; nobody cared either, because he abolished slavery.  Lots of illegitimate children, I've heard, to coloured women - starting to get criticised now, but not really what his place in history really is either.  Well, Watts' contribution to the club has been woefully handled since day one.  His leads have been ignored forever, and you say he can't mark overhead - I remember a lot of last-line-of-defence marks he's taken late in the quarter.  But, even since we have all known he is the absolute best finisher in the team, still they ignore his leads into space.  Jones as much as anyone.  Watts' place in the history of MFC is going to be recognised as a lost opportunity; and while there'll no doubt be criticism of his application, the story of how he was not boosted up by being USED to the maximum, not recognised for what he was, is going to be clearer and clearer over time.  I'll bet it will be coupled with the criticism of Jurrah's "defensive skills", which drowned out appreciation of what he did bring - unmatched goal-kicking - and general kicking - instinct and prowess.

It is so disappointing to see diversity at MFC being flushed away in the general trend to right-wing thuggery that is ascendant in the western world today.  So disappointing.  I'm old, and I remember different times.  

 

I wasn't going to have any more to say on Demonland, but, boy some of the flat denial of the obvious is provoking.