Depth issues

[old dee 22,809]

1 minute ago, monoccular said:

What do you know about Dion as opposed to hope about him?  

I have seen him a couple of times this year and was totally underwhelmed. Struggling at VFL IMO.

[old dee 22,809]

3 minutes ago, rjay said:

The 'Demonland' bookends.

Start of the season...Blues sky...incredible depth how can we fit them all in our best 22, great problem to have.

End of season...Dark clouds...the sky is falling we lack depth, so many VFL level only, we are stuffed.

The start of the season is hope the end of the season is reality rjay.

[rjay 23,853]

30 minutes ago, old dee said:

What I am saying bb is we have next to no really good players. Who is our "buddy"?

 

 

28 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Don't have one

 

8 minutes ago, old dee said:

Exactly.

we don't have anyone even close.

So boys, we've gone from next to none, to none to not even close to one in the space of 3 posts...

You're both on the demon self pity band wagon.

Oliver for a start is one, I would put Viney up there, Max, and see how many clubs would be falling over themselves if Petracca and Hogan came on the market.

We did ok this year on the back of a lot of injuries and other issues to key players.

I would be worried if those mentioned above were in their prime but they all have so much more room for improvement.

We're on the right track, the list will evolve.

[Satyriconhome 9,982]

36 minutes ago, monoccular said:

What do you know about Dion as opposed to hope about him?  

I know quite a lot about Dion, as I do with all the players coz I talk to other players, coaches and a couple of pundits whose input I respect

I give their opinions on players far more weight than those put forward by the 'experts' on here

I also have my opinions on players

I was highly amused to see Schache? mentioned when it seemed he was on the move, a young KPF who hasn't quite cut it yet but is showing signs, we have one of those but if course because he is already an MFC player he is not very good

The club makes mistakes with recruiting/trading but so does every club

Edited September 12, 2017 by Satyriconhome

[old dee 22,809]

3 minutes ago, rjay said:

 

 

So boys, we've gone from next to none, to none to not even close to one in the space of 3 posts...

You're both on the demon self pity band wagon.

Oliver for a start is one, I would put Viney up there, Max, and see how many clubs would be falling over themselves if Petracca and Hogan came on the market.

We did ok this year on the back of a lot of injuries and other issues to key players.

I would be worried if those mentioned above were in their prime but they all have so much more room for improvement.

We're on the right track, the list will evolve.

My point rjay is we do not have a "buddy " type or anyone close. We have good players but next to no very good players.

who on our list can turn a game when the run is going against us? 

Yes we have improved considerable on 2013 but we are at present a ninth placed list. Without changes this list will not get us to a GF.

[Satyriconhome 9,982]

13 minutes ago, old dee said:

My point rjay is we do not have a "buddy " type or anyone close. We have good players but next to no very good players.

who on our list can turn a game when the run is going against us? 

Yes we have improved considerable on 2013 but we are at present a ninth placed list. Without changes this list will not get us to a GF.

We have a bloke called Hogan who showed what he can do in one game, 6 goals not good enough OD, after a miserable year, patience is a virtue

Edited September 12, 2017 by Satyriconhome

[beelzebub 22,225]

39 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

We have a bloke called Hogan who showed what he can do in one game, 6 goals not good enough OD, after a miserable year, patience is a virtue

When he's done that for a few games..or seasons. Yep.

Again. Someone confusing ' what might be " with what is.

Hogan's good. On his day. Theyre rare. Not his fault i understand but hes no Buddy lol

[old dee 22,809]

7 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

When he's done that for a few games..or seasons. Yep.

Again. Someone confusing ' what might be " with what is.

Hogan's good. On his day. Theyre rare. Not his fault i understand but hes no Buddy lol

More than happy for him to become one bb but I won't hold my breath if you don't mind.

[old dee 22,809]

49 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

We have a bloke called Hogan who showed what he can do in one game, 6 goals not good enough OD, after a miserable year, patience is a virtue

Saty Hogan is a good mark and kick player but his ground work is not in the same street as buddy. Buddy does the very difficult things  often. I have Hogan among my best players at the MFC but we need a number more if we make are to seriously threaten a flag.

[Diamond_Jim 11,676]

2 hours ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Both WA sides have reserve teams

Meth Coast are all playing at East Perth and missed finals

Freo is Peel and made the GF last week after rolling Subiaco which caused a fair bit of controversy. They played 15 AFL listed players and the full time component stood out

I stand corrected.. used to have a friend whose son played for Port and at that time their players were spread through the SANFL.

As you say when there are no injuries it gives them a rather strong side in the local comp which is perhaps why in the earlier years they were spread around.

Out of interest who usually wins the games when the VFL state side play their other state equivalents. One small way of gauging the relative strengths of the various comps.

[Pennant St Dee 11,241]

8 hours ago, Diamond_Jim said:

I stand corrected.. used to have a friend whose son played for Port and at that time their players were spread through the SANFL.

As you say when there are no injuries it gives them a rather strong side in the local comp which is perhaps why in the earlier years they were spread around.

Out of interest who usually wins the games when the VFL state side play their other state equivalents. One small way of gauging the relative strengths of the various comps.

WA belted the VFL this year in a big surprise at Port Melbourne.

The players used to be spread out here but Freo and Meth Coast got their wish in the end. Again to the detriment of the the local league.

WAFL is on a very fast downhill slide to irrelevance and the comp will be dead within a decade if something isn't changed.

I rarely get to WAFL games now and to be honest much rather enjoy watching amateurs now. Cheaper beer, good friends and decent quality competition 

 

[DeeSpencer 23,058]

12 hours ago, old dee said:

My point rjay is we do not have a "buddy " type or anyone close. We have good players but next to no very good players.

who on our list can turn a game when the run is going against us? 

Yes we have improved considerable on 2013 but we are at present a ninth placed list. Without changes this list will not get us to a GF.

Key forwards rarely win finals yet alone grand finals off their own boot. Oliver, Viney and Gawn can turn games in the midfield with stoppage dominance. Hunt can break a game open. And the real match winner is Petracca, who is the one can make something out of nothing.

I agree with the idea that you need elite players to be a consistently top side capable of winning a premiership but I also think if you have a team that pressures and runs and defends and has good skills then the average players look better than that, the good players look very good and the superstars get elevated as well. 

Richmond right now are a case of that. Riewoldt's looking great because he's doing all the team first stuff. Rance is looking good because Astbury is holding up on the best tall forard. The likes of Prestia and Grigg and Caddy are making life easier for Cotchin who is in turn playing very well and making Martin look like a superstar and to an extent vice versa.

[old dee 22,809]

8 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Key forwards rarely win finals yet alone grand finals off their own boot. Oliver, Viney and Gawn can turn games in the midfield with stoppage dominance. Hunt can break a game open. And the real match winner is Petracca, who is the one can make something out of nothing.

I agree with the idea that you need elite players to be a consistently top side capable of winning a premiership but I also think if you have a team that pressures and runs and defends and has good skills then the average players look better than that, the good players look very good and the superstars get elevated as well. 

Richmond right now are a case of that. Riewoldt's looking great because he's doing all the team first stuff. Rance is looking good because Astbury is holding up on the best tall forard. The likes of Prestia and Grigg and Caddy are making life easier for Cotchin who is in turn playing very well and making Martin look like a superstar and to an extent vice versa.

While the players you list regularly play well they are not enough.

Oliver  is a pup and who knows where he will end up. Viney is at his best right now he is not blessed with great talent but plays above level by sheer effort and IMO will not get any better. Gawn is a tap Ruckman who has had one good year and who breaks down regularly his type do not win flags just look at all the flag winners from the last decade they have average Ruckman. Petracca  is a conundrum he has shown in a few games that he is good but in a lot more has been rarely above average. For whatever reason he does not appear to have a big tank that champions need in the modern game. Of your four I see only Oliver as being top shelf the rest are good but hardly good enough in the current list to challenge for a flag. 

The list needs another four very good players and a couple champions right now it is a ninth placed list. We desperately need an elite KPB and a tall mobile forward who is good at ground level. Of course another couple of very good mid fielders would not go astray

As the coach said the ladder dose not lie.

Edited September 12, 2017 by old dee

[Diamond_Jim 11,676]

9 minutes ago, old dee said:

While the players you list regularly play well they are not enough.

Oliver  is a pup and who knows where he will end up. Viney is at his best right now he is not blessed with great talent but plays above level by sheer effort and IMO will not get any better. Gawn is a tap Ruckman who has had one good year and who breaks down regularly his type do not win flags just look at all the flag winners from the last decade they have average Ruckman. Petracca  is a conundrum he has shown in a few games that he is good but in a lot more has been rarely above average. For whatever reason he does not appear to have a big tank that champions need in the modern game. Of your four I see only Oliver as being top shelf the rest are good but hardly good enough in the current list to challenge for a flag. 

The list needs another four very good players and a couple champions right now it is a ninth placed list. We desperately need an elite KPB and a tall mobile forward who is good at ground level. Of course another couple of very good mid fielders would not go astray

As the coach said the ladder dose not lie.

you sure know how to depress a poor MFC supporter OD but your points have validity based on the last season's performance.

I do hope however that you are wrong about Gawn. I see him and Hogan (in a CHF role) as two players that could take us all the way.

Getting back onto the topic of Depth .. the disappointing thing about the VFL players is that hardly any performed when they came into the senior team to the extent that they were dropped back to the VFL because a regular was returning and not on form alone. That is how I measure depth and this year we did not have it.

One lives in hope but 2017 was in the end a real downer of a season.

[old dee 22,809]

17 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

you sure know how to depress a poor MFC supporter OD but your points have validity based on the last season's performance.

I do hope however that you are wrong about Gawn. I see him and Hogan (in a CHF role) as two players that could take us all the way.

Getting back onto the topic of Depth .. the disappointing thing about the VFL players is that hardly any performed when they came into the senior team to the extent that they were dropped back to the VFL because a regular was returning and not on form alone. That is how I measure depth and this year we did not have it.

One lives in hope but 2017 was in the end a real downer of a season.

I am not saying we have a poor list it has come a long way since 2013 but in my view we still have a fair way to go before we can think of it as a real chance to get us a flag.

We had a couple of poor results this year, I thought we would win 13. If we look at just the North game and the last game it should have been 14 wins and we would be playing finals. The fact we could not win those two games comvinced me our list is not as good as I thought in June. 

 

[beelzebub 22,225]

23 minutes ago, old dee said:

I am not saying we have a poor list it has come a long way since 2013 but in my view we still have a fair way to go before we can think of it as a real chance to get us a flag.

We had a couple of poor results this year, I thought we would win 13. If we look at just the North game and the last game it should have been 14 wins and we would be playing finals. The fact we could not win those two games comvinced me our list is not as good as I thought in June. 

 

Its not just the list  (players)

There is another.

There is an old yiddish iddiom ' never mind the quality, feel the width' This goes to the idea of quantity v quality.

I think the metric is applicable in this discourse.

I am of the camp that thinks depth is not sufficiently alone about spread of ability but to the amount, and then the wherewithal of a  fd to replace like for like. Ie a role performer for a similar.

In theatre you have depth because you have understudies who at any given moment can stand in, and...the show goes on unabated.

If you can't do this in a team then imho you have NO depth.

Our ability to function unhindered despite any changes in players is for mine the gauge of depth. 

To simply field a team is spread.

[grey wolf 226]

I went to the beach after that Saturday of woe. I took two litres of Dimple and a bag, well a sack really, of weed. The sooty oystercatchers and the local dolphins kept me informed on the misery of the demonlanders.

I am in detox right now but am optimistically looking forward to the draft and my next cheroot.

So BB how deep is our potential? Here's my take:

2018 best 22...

Back 6

Jetta OMac LEVER Hunt TMac Hibberd

Mid 6

Gawn Oliver Petracca Lewis Brayshaw GAFF

Front 6

Melksham Hogan ANB  Garlett Weed TRENGROVE

Depential

Backs.. Vince Salem Frost Smith McKenna Wagner

Mids...  Jones Viney Tyson JKH King Vanders Maynard Stretch 

Fronts... Watts Pedo Hannan Smith Harmes Bugg Johnstone

Gone.. Trenners Pencil Kent Flipper White Hulett Lamumba

Yes that first drag will be goooood..

[Demon Dynasty 15,203]

On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 3:55 PM, drdrake said:

The best and worse thing to happen to the VFL clubs is AFL vic canning the development league.  You will be able to cut support staff numbers and player cost. The flip side will be getting the next Generation of kids developed to play at your club.

Back to our depth The issue is age, out side Weiderman and Brayshaw, what kids do we have that played on Saturday to be half excited about

Maynard looks ok.  Outside of that i would agree with you but only Brayshaw.  Sorry but i've personally seen nothing that excites me about the Weid so far.

[Demon Dynasty 15,203]

On Tuesday, September 12, 2017 at 12:36 PM, old dee said:

My point rjay is we do not have a "buddy " type or anyone close. We have good players but next to no very good players.

who on our list can turn a game when the run is going against us? 

Yes we have improved considerable on 2013 but we are at present a ninth placed list. Without changes this list will not get us to a GF.

Tracc is showing glimpses of becoming a game changer OD but still a way to go yet.  And he'll need plenty of support.  I'm obviously not telling you something you don't already know OD but even great players are made to look better when surrounded by a very good bunch of team mates.

[WERRIDEE 5,198]

On ‎13‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 10:59 AM, grey wolf said:

I went to the beach after that Saturday of woe. I took two litres of Dimple and a bag, well a sack really, of weed. The sooty oystercatchers and the local dolphins kept me informed on the misery of the demonlanders.

I am in detox right now but am optimistically looking forward to the draft and my next cheroot.

So BB how deep is our potential? Here's my take:

2018 best 22...

Back 6

Jetta OMac LEVER Hunt TMac Hibberd

Mid 6

Gawn Oliver Petracca Lewis Brayshaw GAFF

Front 6

Melksham Hogan ANB  Garlett Weed TRENGROVE

Depential

Backs.. Vince Salem Frost Smith McKenna Wagner

Mids...  Jones Viney Tyson JKH King Vanders Maynard Stretch 

Fronts... Watts Pedo Hannan Smith Harmes Bugg Johnstone

Gone.. Trenners Pencil Kent Flipper White Hulett Lamumba

Yes that first drag will be goooood..

You have only done a best 18 not 22.

 

Melbourne

B: HIBBERD, O.MCDONALD, JETTA

HB: HUNT, LEVER, LEWIS

C: PETRACCA, OLIVER, BRAYSHAW

HF: MELKSHAM, T,MCDONALD, NEAL-BULLEN

F: GARLETT, HOGAN, HANNAN

FOLL: GAWN, JONES, VINEY

IC: TYSON, VINCE, VANDENBERG, MAYNARD

 

Casey

B; GARLAND, FROST, MCKENNA

HB: WAGNER, KEILTY, J.SMITH

C: STRETCH, HARMES, BUGG

HF: KENT, PEDERSEN, WATTS

F: T.SMITH, WEIDEMAN, KENNEDY

FOLL: KING, SALEM, KENNEDY-HARRIS

IC: FILIPOVIC, JOHNSTONE

 

I expect Watts to be traded and Kennedy to be delisted. Kent traded for Lang. Frost, Harmes, Pedersen and Salem are our depth the rest are either developing or list cloggers.

I'm not sure how we get Gaff to the club, Watts is the only player worth something and I would trade him for Lever.

Vandenberg to replace Watts and Maynard has to be in the seniors after getting 18 clearances against the Tigers that must be close to some kind of record. 

Edited September 16, 2017 by WERRIDEE

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

On 12/09/2017 at 1:31 PM, beelzebub said:

Not his fault i understand but hes no Buddy lol

But... no-one is? He's literally the only guy we've seen in his stratosphere in 20 years.

The expectation that we have a Buddy when 17 other clubs are in the same boat is ludicrous.

[Josh 1,420]

7 hours ago, WERRIDEE said:

You have only done a best 18 not 22.

 

Melbourne

B: HIBBERD, O.MCDONALD, JETTA

HB: HUNT, LEVER, LEWIS

C: PETRACCA, OLIVER, BRAYSHAW

HF: MELKSHAM, T,MCDONALD, NEAL-BULLEN

F: GARLETT, HOGAN, HANNAN

FOLL: GAWN, JONES, VINEY

IC: TYSON, VINCE, VANDENBERG, MAYNARD

 

Casey

B; GARLAND, FROST, MCKENNA

HB: WAGNER, KEILTY, J.SMITH

C: STRETCH, HARMES, BUGG

HF: KENT, PEDERSEN, WATTS

F: T.SMITH, WEIDEMAN, KENNEDY

FOLL: KING, SALEM, KENNEDY-HARRIS

IC: FILIPOVIC, JOHNSTONE

 

I expect Watts to be traded and Kennedy to be delisted. Kent traded for Lang. Frost, Harmes, Pedersen and Salem are our depth the rest are either developing or list cloggers.

I'm not sure how we get Gaff to the club, Watts is the only player worth something and I would trade him for Lever.

Vandenberg to replace Watts and Maynard has to be in the seniors after getting 18 clearances against the Tigers that must be close to some kind of record. 

This is all the proof we need that we have improved out of sight. There is only 1 player in the seniors that isn't currently on our list.

You dont have to go back far to find "pick 6" on the half foward flank or "dream trade" starting on the wing.

 

[Redleg 37,474]

On 13/09/2017 at 10:13 AM, old dee said:

I am not saying we have a poor list it has come a long way since 2013 but in my view we still have a fair way to go before we can think of it as a real chance to get us a flag.

We had a couple of poor results this year, I thought we would win 13. If we look at just the North game and the last game it should have been 14 wins and we would be playing finals. The fact we could not win those two games comvinced me our list is not as good as I thought in June. 

 

Losing those 2 games has nothing to do with the talent on our list, it was to do with application. 

If you want guys with more killer attitude that is one thing, but we had the talent to win those games.

We lost those games because of our mindset and attitude.

[old dee 22,809]

8 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Losing those 2 games has nothing to do with the talent on our list, it was to do with application. 

If you want guys with more killer attitude that is one thing, but we had the talent to win those games.

We lost those games because of our mindset and attitude.

We will differ on this one.

When you don't have the talent you can cover some of that with effort but as games / the season wears on you get tired, then you don't have the talent to get you through.

I believe we are still a side that needs another four top quality players to see us playing deep into September. If we had fell into the finals in the last week we would have looked as silly as Essendrug and WCE. This year we only beat one of the current last four and that was early in the year. On the second occasion the Crows murdered us. That tells me we are still short of talent. 

I believe we will play finals next year but unless we pick up a couple of good players this trade period we will again be watching on after the first or second round at best. 

 

[Redleg 37,474]

2 hours ago, old dee said:

We will differ on this one.

When you don't have the talent you can cover some of that with effort but as games / the season wears on you get tired, then you don't have the talent to get you through.

I believe we are still a side that needs another four top quality players to see us playing deep into September. If we had fell into the finals in the last week we would have looked as silly as Essendrug and WCE. This year we only beat one of the current last four and that was early in the year. On the second occasion the Crows murdered us. That tells me we are still short of talent. 

I believe we will play finals next year but unless we pick up a couple of good players this trade period we will again be watching on after the first or second round at best. 

 

You are changing the argument.

You said we lost those two games because of a lack of talent on the list.

I strongly disagree.

We lost because of a poor mental approach.

Do we need more talent on the list, yes of course we do, but they are two different arguments.