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POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 4

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23 minutes ago, SFebey said:

I'd throw everything at Tom Lynch from the Suns.

Obviously, I'd love Lynch, but he doesn't address enough needs. That might sound strange as he's one of the best forwards in the game, but we need a ruck/forward. I'd prefer his team mate Peter Wright. 

However, I think it's our defence that needs help sooner rather than later, not our forwardline, now that Jesse is back.

I'd be targeting a KPD before a KPF/ruck.

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49 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

Wise we should have had 7 v 5 minimum in that shot. You would think we are behind with that set up. Massive coaching/on field leader/s fail

Really, Rusty?  I would have thought it was rather clear that I was being sarcastic.  Get your sarcasm meter fixed.

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5 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Sad but true.  My worry with Jones and Viney is they don't have much footy smarts nor are they good readers of the play.  You have them or you don't, they don't. 

Having watched the replay Watts was a leader all day: He congratulated and encouraged nearly every goal kicker.  He led from the front in the sense that he was all over the ground, threw himself into every contest and he was involved in quite a few plays that ended in goals.  He could see what was needed at the end and wanted to go down back to defend our small lead but wasn't allowed to. 

I'm not in any way suggesting that Watts should be captain or even in the leadership team.  But he certainly showed up the lack of leadership and footy smarts from the three official leaders on the ground.  

Watts was the glue that held the team together just as he was vs Geelong.  McD, Jones and Viney just played to their own separate tunes all day and forgot about 'team first'.  Yes, they failed miserably. 

Jones has gone through the motions and always has. What's disappointing is that his first 2 games of the season were among his best ever. He has majorly let us down the past two weeks and needs to step up now. He's played like a perennial loser the past two games. Especially on Saturday. 

Edited by praha
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1 hour ago, Rusty Nails said:

You don't roll the dice with a few minutes to go when in front U.H. Only a complete numbskull would do that. And the boys did finish, they got us in front, the coaching staff and leaders or lack of, [censored] up the last 2 minutes

We don't know for sure where the exact fail was (Coaching, Leadership, structures), so I believe it's a waste of time pointing fingers.. Regardless if you think it's right or wrong get used to being very aggressive under Goody.

Until the boys play together for an extended period of time these mistakes will continue to happen. We're not the Hawks/Cats we are a young team and a new team from 2016 in many ways.

If you believe it or not, we are a work in progress. Let's move on to next week,

 

 

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I personally feel the obvious trend in the two losses this year is simple - leadership. 

The players that the club depend on, to stand up, direct and stem the flow of play, which you'd expect from Jones, Vince, Melksham and McDonald, go missing. I really believe that we have a genuine lack of leaders and an ability to control and direct the play from the field. This has been sorely compounded by Lewis, who, in my opinion, is potentially our only senior player able to provide these attributes.

In the two losses, we saw senior opposition players - Hawkins, Dangerfield & Selwood; Neale, Fyfe and Sandilands - all stand and up and change the flow of battle when needed. 

I'm not at all worried about the kids that we have coming through. I think Oliver, Brayshaw and Petracca will all offer this in years to come. With added maturity you can throw Viney into that mix too, and if Trengove is ever able to get back on the field I guarantee you that he'd add a wealth of leadership to this team. I'll hold my call on Hogan in regards to this, but at this stage, I don't see him as a leader; I think he may be a supreme natural talent, but a bloke that doesn't really care much about the game - I may be wrong but that's just my perception. 

I really feel that we need to be able to recruit a star of the competition from another club end of year. Not necessarily just a talent, but a true A grader who screams not only ability, but accountability and leadership. 

 

Edited by BLWNBA
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And Bloody Cats are 2.9, of course it couldn't have been last week.

MRP sees no Demon jumpers and lets everyone off.

I turn on the Casey video and Willy score 5 goals to our 2 points including a set shot missed from 10 in front.

 

Edited by Redleg
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2 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

Really, Rusty?  I would have thought it was rather clear that I was being sarcastic.  Get your sarcasm meter fixed.

I got that part Wise. It was the screen shot that I didn't get!!! ?

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28 minutes ago, Redleg said:

And Bloody Cats are 2.9, of course it couldn't have been last week.

MRP sees no Demon jumpers and lets everyone off.

I turn on the Casey video and Willy score 5 goals to our 2 points including a set shot missed from 10 in front.

 

So nothing new Mr. Leg?

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1 hour ago, BLWNBA said:

I personally feel the obvious trend in the two losses this year is simple - leadership. 

The players that the club depend on, to stand up, direct and stem the flow of play, which you'd expect from Jones, Vince, Melksham and McDonald, go missing. I really believe that we have a genuine lack of leaders and an ability to control and direct the play from the field. This has been sorely compounded by Lewis, who, in my opinion, is potentially our only senior player able to provide these attributes.

In the two losses, we saw senior opposition players - Hawkins, Dangerfield & Selwood; Neale, Fyfe and Sandilands - all stand and up and change the flow of battle when needed. 

I'm not at all worried about the kids that we have coming through. I think Oliver, Brayshaw and Petracca will all offer this in years to come. With added maturity you can throw Viney into that mix too, and if Trengove is ever able to get back on the field I guarantee you that he'd add a wealth of leadership to this team. I'll hold my call on Hogan in regards to this, but at this stage, I don't see him as a leader; I think he may be a supreme natural talent, but a bloke that doesn't really care much about the game - I may be wrong but that's just my perception. 

I really feel that we need to be able to recruit a star of the competition from another club end of year. Not necessarily just a talent, but a true A grader who screams not ability, but accountability and leadership. 

 

I worry about our kids being exposed to poor leadership. This is why we need to get Lewis and other decent leaders in there, so that they can actually learn off someone. Jones is a trier and I love him for sticking with us in tough times, but he isn't a leader.

I also worry that if we go after a star recruit, we put out our salary cap and risk losing a star kid or two in the future (ie. Oliver, Petracca, Salem or Brayshaw). 

It's a tough balance and it'll be interesting to see the list strategy in the next 2-3 years. It will be make or break for this list and their chances of premiership success. You realise how much success actually comes down to luck as well in these situations. 

Edited by A F
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1 hour ago, Unleash Hell said:

We don't know for sure where the exact fail was (Coaching, Leadership, structures), so I believe it's a waste of time pointing fingers.. Regardless if you think it's right or wrong get used to being very aggressive under Goody.

Until the boys play together for an extended period of time these mistakes will continue to happen. We're not the Hawks/Cats we are a young team and a new team from 2016 in many ways.

If you believe it or not, we are a work in progress. Let's move on to next week,

 

 

We are young UH but we had many players in the field who have also lived/seen/experienced a last minute or two 'no flood / no numbers back' massive fail like Saturday vs the Saints in Rnd 11 2015, less than 2 years ago.  Some of them young & inexperienced, some not.

Dont need to be Einstein to get numbers back with a few minutes left (or less) when you have just hit the front.

If we brush it aside and easily "move on to next week" we are doomed to commit the same error again at some point. If it was a prelim or a GF I doubt very many supporters/members would have much forgiveness, if any at all.

This is one time when I would be happy for PJ to be asking the hard questions of the Coach and FD. You want to win premierships you can't make major [censored] ups like Saturday every once in a while. Could be the difference between us playing finals this year or not.

Edited by Rusty Nails
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31 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

We are young UH but we had many players in the field who have also lived/seen/experienced a last minute or two 'no flood / no numbers back' massive fail like Saturday vs the Saints in Rnd 11 2015, less than 2 years ago.  Some of them young & inexperienced, some not.

Dont need to be Einstein to get numbers back with a few minutes left (or less) when you have just hit the front.

If we brush it aside and easily "move on to next week" we are doomed to commit the same error again at some point. If it was a prelim or a GF I doubt very many supporters/members would have much forgiveness, if any at all.

This is one time when I would be happy for PJ to be asking the hard questions of the Coach and FD. You want to win premierships you can't make major [censored] ups like Saturday every once in a while. Could be the difference between us playing finals this year or not.

I dont think anything you said is wrong. But you need to move on.

You can beat the drums all you want but pj wont question goody and 4 weeks in to season isnt a trend.

 

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18 hours ago, bing181 said:

If you look outside of that image, Jetta had run up the wing following his man (or someone) to block off receiving from the Fyfe possession, and Hunt was in between that back group and the ball-carrier (Langdon?) to stop him just running it in, so they seem to have done what they needed to. But that still doesn't account for the extra man forward.

Think it just shows inexperience, together with not being completely switched-on at the end of a gruelling game. The structures needed to be reset given the situation, but they weren't. On the basis of that image, you'd actually think the situations were reversed, that we'd thrown people forward desperately looking for an extra score, exposing ourselves at the back.

I'd like to say "bet it doesn't happen again", but not so sure.

On the other hand, "bet if Lewis and Hibberd were out there it wouldn't have happened", seems closer to the mark.

I think we all said that after the St Kilda loss in 2015.

You're probably right about Jetta and Hunt covering the half-back space, but we should never have been in a position where we only had three players able to contest the long kick inside 50.

Presumably the majority of our mids had pushed up after Vince's poor kick to contest the ball on half-back and as we inched out to the wing, followed the ball instead of hanging back.

That will come with experience but to be honest we shouldn't need to learn that.

5 hours ago, ProDee said:

Freo win by 2 points and their best player (Fyfe) plays 91% TOG.

Oliver 72%, Tyson 73%, Kent 74%, Viney 74%, Petracca 77%. Salem 79%

And for Vogon: Lewis 0%, Hogan 0%.

Surely Viney is injured - there is no good reason why he should be missing a quarter of the game otherwise.

Also, where do you get this stat from?

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10 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

Surely Viney is injured - there is no good reason why he should be missing a quarter of the game otherwise.

Also, where do you get this stat from?

http://www.afl.com.au/stats

Players - advanced options - select round then game

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17 hours ago, A F said:

I don't agree with all of this, but I think you've got me on board with your rating of our co-captains. Leadership is a massive problem as soon as Gawn and Lewis are out of the side. Most teams would struggle with leaders like that out, but we've still got our two co-captains going about things and failing to influence games in the way captain's should.

I'm not sure we have an answer on the list at the moment. I don't think Lewis should be captain, but definitely VC. I'm not convinced in 2017 or 2018, Jones or Viney should be captain. I think Saturday was a real test of their leadership material without Max and Jordy. They failed miserably. What can be done?

I was all for the co-captaincy at the start of the year, but it's clear that a combination of injury and/or form has diluted Viney's influence so prominently that he's almost a liability. His kicking is ordinary, even some tackles are failing to stick and he's not getting the clearance numbers or UPs and CPs that he managed last year. This is with even more help from guys like Oliver and Tyson sharing the load. 

I think Jack's ceiling is higher than his father's if he is allowed to play the game instinctively. If they're getting him to 'learn' at the moment via playing defensive roles then that's okay for the time being, but I think there needs to come a point eventually where Jack is allowed to play instinctively as he did last year. If he's not allowed this freedom, I fear he's a cusp B grader at best, when his potential could be as high as A grade.

I dunno I feel focusing on things like the co-captaincy is just distraction

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9 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I dunno I feel focusing on things like the co-captaincy is just distraction

That should read leadership though. Would you suggest there is another problem that the leadership question is distracting from?

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9 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Sad but true.  My worry with Jones and Viney is they don't have much footy smarts nor are they good readers of the play.  You have them or you don't, they don't. 

Having watched the replay Watts was a leader all day: He congratulated and encouraged nearly every goal kicker.  He led from the front in the sense that he was all over the ground, threw himself into every contest and he was involved in quite a few plays that ended in goals.  He could see what was needed at the end and wanted to go down back to defend our small lead but wasn't allowed to. 

I'm not in any way suggesting that Watts should be captain or even in the leadership team.  But he certainly showed up the lack of leadership and footy smarts from the three official leaders on the ground.  

Watts was the glue that held the team together just as he was vs Geelong.  McD, Jones and Viney just played to their own separate tunes all day and forgot about 'team first'.  Yes, they failed miserably. 

I feel Watts has gone up another level these last 2 games. Last year he was fantastic but this year he has added a far more team oriented mindset and has become a real leader. It is great to see from someone who was almost out the door 2 years ago

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3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I feel Watts has gone up another level these last 2 games. Last year he was fantastic but this year he has added a far more team oriented mindset and has become a real leader. It is great to see from someone who was almost out the door 2 years ago

I thought Goody had pulled the wrong rein with him over the preseason ?

Edited by ProDee
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5 hours ago, ProDee said:

He was down on TOG % for this game, because he sat on the pine for the first 9 minutes of the last quarter.  He tried to get on, but had to sit down again, because there wasn't the required break in play.  He was then off again around the 15 minute mark.

But yes, when he has a tank and learns to use his speed out of the stoppages he'll be one of the best mids in the game.

Pretty sure with about 5 minutes to go we also had Jones Viney and Petracca (or maybe it was Oliver can't remember) on the bench. I remember looking up and thinking we need to win clearances here and our best mods are on the bench.

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He still loses his feet too often and isn't a great one-on-one mark, but he did take a beauty on the weekend and has improved this area of his game. I want to see him tackle the hips, instead of the jumper, but other than the toughness question, I think he's had a great start to the season.

It's interesting, because he doesn't have to kick his 40 goals this year to be a really important player. That'd be nice, but his ball use and ability at ground level in the ruck make him just as damaging.

Edited by A F

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10 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Pretty sure with about 5 minutes to go we also had Jones Viney and Petracca (or maybe it was Oliver can't remember) on the bench. I remember looking up and thinking we need to win clearances here and our best mods are on the bench.

Oliver was certainly on the wing, inexplicably, at the second last centre bounce. There's no doubt in my mind he should have been in the guts at that centre stoppage.

Edited by A F

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I can't help but ball-watch at the centre-bounces and never really notice who is in there. Would love it if there was some way I could access a break-down and refer it back to the clearance stats etc. to get an insight on combinations and the motivation for changes as a reflection of what's happening on-field.

I also can't access replays - so if anyone is bored and fancies noting it down during their re-watch . . ?

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5 hours ago, praha said:

Jones has gone through the motions and always has. What's disappointing is that his first 2 games of the season were among his best ever. He has majorly let us down the past two weeks and needs to step up now. He's played like a perennial loser the past two games. Especially on Saturday. 

Harsh. And unwarranted.

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35 minutes ago, A F said:

That should read leadership though. Would you suggest there is another problem that the leadership question is distracting from?

I just think questioning the co-captain decision is fruitless and creates an issue from something we can't fix - not at this stage of the season anyway 

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If we're to beat Richmond, we'll need to match their tackling pressure. If we do, we'll easily account for them.

However, Stretch, Kent, Vince, McDonald, Frost, Hannan and Weideman/Hogan will need to have more than 4 tackles between them! That is not intent to win the game. Kent (1 tackle), Hannan (0 tackles), Weideman (0 tackles) and even Stretch (1 tackle) will not hold the ball in our forwardline with that pathetic output. 

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Not sure if it's been mentioned, but did anyone else think that Walters? marking attempt, when they got their last goal, was unrealistic? Took out TMac and didn't get close to the ball.

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