POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 4

[old dee 22,843]

6 minutes ago, Macca said:

There's a whole bunch of reasons we lost yesterday OD ... 1 kick in it means a big slice of luck too (but using the luck element would be making excuses) 

Ordinarily I'd be confident against the Tigers next week with regards to bouncing back but the game starts in the middle and Jake needs to have a good game (in terms of rucking) Do that and we'll be right in it.

 

IMO Jake is not one of our problems he will do his job.

I honestly think yesterday's team with Hogan added is good enough to knock over the Tigers.

yesterdays forward line only looked danagerous when Watts was there. As soon as he went into the ruck it looked average.

add Hogan and even if he only kicks a couple he gives our forward substance yesterday it was faireyfloss. 

[Binmans PA 25,976]

7 minutes ago, old dee said:

IMO Jake is not one of our problems he will do his job.

I honestly think yesterday's team with Hogan added is good enough to knock over the Tigers.

yesterdays forward line only looked danagerous when Watts was there. As soon as he went into the ruck it looked average.

add Hogan and even if he only kicks a couple he gives our forward substance yesterday it was faireyfloss. 

I thought our forwardline looked alright when we moved it quickly. We barely moved it quickly yesterday. It'll look ordinary again if we don't move it quickly enough against Richmond.

[SFebes 4,692]

I guess the most frustrating parts are, we should definitely be 4-0 and we should have beaten Freo at the MCG where they have a terrible record.

I disagree with some that Fremantle played well, I thought they were hopeless which is why I was fuming. They really did play badly besides one quarter and we still lost it! Go figure.

We have definitely improved from previous years, no question, however there are still some alarm bells there that still exist. Our disposal and decision making is still terrible, this is often hidden by decent DE% but I think a lot of that is from cheap handballs around the back of a pack in a circle which cloud our overall use by foot. Besides Watts, Salem & to a lesser extent Petracca & Oliver in close - I don't trust anyone to hit a target at any time consistently. This is just simply not good enough, whether it is poor coaching or recruiting I don't know but we are going to always struggle putting sides away because of this. This does concern me as it is not a quick fix, we need to draft better disposers. This is really hurting us in the backline if you go through the names, Salem a single exception.

Backline - Salem & Jetta tick, Vince is not a backmen and shouldnt play there, McDonald lets his great work down with some stupid dropped marks and poor decisions. Frost a definte improvement on Oscar. Melksham is a disgrace, always has been, Dons fans still laughing at us. Hibberd should do well.

Another alarm bell & one that has annoyed me for many years is the topic of leadership & leaders. So often when the game is in the balance or we are getting smashed our senior players & leaders go missing. First culprit is Nathan Jones. While a Demonland & fan favorite, I personally have never rated the guy to the levels people put him on. He was a standout in a pathetic side for many years, racking up cheap handballs out the back of packs & throwing the ball on the boot only to butcher it going forward with kicks - not a captain.

Speaking of captains, 1. I'm not sure why the hell we would put Jack Viney in such a position after the Trengove/Grimes debacle, does the club not learn? 2. It is standing out like dogs balls that there is conflict between these guys. I watched them closely yesterday, not very encouraging of each other. Also there was no running back to the middle to get the group of mids in a huddle before a ballup from either Jones/Viney, there certainly was from the Freo mids. In fact I was quite appalled with Jones' body language and plodding back to the centre after Freo goals. He is the last left of a bad era, he has served us well in a crap time (not knocking his endeavour), just his leadership. The Co-Captaincy is just stupid, one it has upset Jones and two, it is affecting Viney significantly, he's been as poor as anyone so far and that is the only thing that has changed.

I cant remember which quarter it was, 3 or 4 but on the HFF for Freo one of their players waltzed through a small gap between Jones & Viney, both of them made no effort to tackle or lunge then looked up at each other and put their heads down. That's when I became frustrated. I think we need a leader from another club to come in from a winning culture to give the captaincy to, for eg Lewis or Ablett type, I feel for Jones but he just doesn't know how to win a game.

We seem to be shutting down the opposition mids for big parts of the games but not capitalizing through good disposal & accurate goal kicking. Better set sets in the last two weeks and we would be sitting on top of ladder or close to it, so that's important to remember. The Melbourne of previous years would be 0-4 and getting belted so we have improved heaps, just need better composure and stop over hand balling and finessing. i50's are very positive as are shots on goal but we really need to nail those set shots. On bad days that alone will keep us in games much like Geelong. And then when the opposition mids get on top they crucify us, Jones & Viney are there amongst it and not doing anything! Billy Stretch needs to back himself in more than running around in circles, he has the pace so use it. Spencer very serviceable against a bloke who would beat any ruckmen.

The Coach - I'm going with a tick so far, bar the Co-Captaincy. He can only control the players to a certain extent then it's up to the leaders. There is no doubt the boys are playing for him. A couple of things though, over hand balling and a very offensive game plan will need to be reined in a bit. In the last two games there has been too many cheap goals scored when the opposition gets out the back. Against Geelong, Omac was somehow getting caught one on one with Tom Hawkins, not sure who was to blame but Goodwin should have sorted that out quickly. A few of his selections have also raised eyebrows, personally I would've played Spencer the week before and gave Max a lot of time up forward to clunk his marks, plus Melksham & Oscar getting a gig for way too long. Vince in the backline just shouldn't continue!

Forward line - seems dysfunctional but we are still scoring freely, just not accurately with squandered set shots. Hogan is a big out in terms of team balance & structure, but I'm still shocked at why he and Lewis got so many weeks! Perhaps play Trengove up forward for a while in a Menzel type role, see how he goes. I'm not sure how or where Hannan fits in just yet but needs to do more. And how brilliant has Watts been this year for someone who hardly got a game in JLT, he has stood up better than I had imagined & along with Oliver has carried us so far. We just need to get it into his hands more than 14 times, he creates play and normally goals when he touches the ball, but he is not a ruckmen & should be played on a wing so he can also get back when we are getting some heat. Petracca is going to be a star and I'd like to see him with more of the ball to be honest, maybe more time in the midfield, we need these two to get 25+ touches a game along with Salem.

So a combination of happy we have improved but frustrated at what could have been but definite improvement. Just need to really focus on our lack of leadership issues, set shots and disposal by foot. Next 4 weeks are crucial and I would like to see us 5-3 and after the next 8 weeks 9-3/8-4. Anything less than 8-4 and I will be slightly disappointed.

One last thing, yesterdays crowd was pathetic. Merely 28,000 at a guess for a MFC home game against a side we should of beaten. Besides Easter what is everyone's excuse? The Freo crowd was also more vocal. Anyway all the best and lets cheer the boys on in coming weeks, a big test of leadership on the line. See you all in another 4 weeks and Happy Easter.

 

 

Edited April 16, 2017 by SFebey

[old dee 22,843]

2 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Memo to club:

Could players be instructed to display appropriate levels of looking guttedness after losing.

Thanks,

A Fan

Guttedness interesting word bing can I borrow it?

[Bitter but optimistic 21,232]

6 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Using the luck element would just be acknowledging that much that happens in a footy match comes down to luck, or something close to it.

The world is a much more unpredictable place than we're prepared to admit, but we still spend our lives convincing ourselves it makes sense and looking for reasons to justify such an assumption.

This saying has been attributed to a few but I'll settle for Gary Player

"It's funny, the harder I work the luckier I get"

[old dee 22,843]

1 minute ago, A F said:

I thought our forwardline looked alright when we moved it quickly. We barely moved it quickly yesterday. It'll look ordinary again if we don't move it quickly enough against Richmond.

I never felt confident when we went forward it always seemed congested and I hoped rather then expected someone would do something. 

[Macca 16,173]

6 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Using the luck element would just be acknowledging that much that happens in a footy match comes down to luck, or something close to it.

The world is a much more unpredictable place than we're prepared to admit, but we still spend our lives convincing ourselves it makes sense and looking for reasons to justify such an assumption.

I've always felt that if a team is a 5* goals better team and that team in turn plays to its capabilities, then luck and the umpires aren't a factor.  We could have gone into yesterday's game as a 5 goal better team but for one reason or another, we didn't.  A 1 point win would have sufficed yesterday. 

 

*Make that 10 goals when visiting the WCE at Subiaco

[bing181 8,163]

In regards to Melksham, interesting to read Worslfold's comments re the suspended Don players. A year away from footy is a long time. Running out of steam already?

[old dee 22,843]

3 minutes ago, Macca said:

I've always felt that if a team is a 5* goals better team and that team in turn plays to its capabilities, then luck and the umpires aren't a factor.  We could have gone into yesterday's game as a 5 goal better team but for one reason or another, we didn't.  A 1 point win would have sufficed yesterday. 

 

*Make that 10 goals when visiting the WCE at Subiaco

What have you been drinking this afternoon Macca? 

Ten goals infront of the WCE in WA.

or did you mean we kicked ten?

[Macca 16,173]

25 minutes ago, old dee said:

IMO Jake is not one of our problems he will do his job.

I honestly think yesterday's team with Hogan added is good enough to knock over the Tigers.

yesterdays forward line only looked danagerous when Watts was there. As soon as he went into the ruck it looked average.

add Hogan and even if he only kicks a couple he gives our forward substance yesterday it was faireyfloss. 

I may be in the minority here with regards to ruckwork & taps to advantage. 

Gawn back to Spencer is a significant drop ... yesterday was a great example.  58 taps to 22 with many to their advantage (especially in the 3rd quarter)

You often only know the value of a great ruckman when you haven't got one.

9 minutes ago, old dee said:

What have you been drinking this afternoon Macca? 

Ten goals infront of the WCE in WA.

or did you mean we kicked ten?

I don't drink

I meant it in the sense of 'home-town' decisions ... which is a staple in sport re officiating. 

i.e.  ... in order to win against the WCE at Subiaco you need to be a much better team to start with (maybe not 10 goals better but better all the same)

Edited April 16, 2017 by Macca

[Demon Dynasty 15,364]

1 hour ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

One thing I noticed yesterday was the number of times Freo players smothered the ball from a Melb kick attempt. Reckon I saw this 5 times - much more than usual.

Were we slow on those occasions? Was it just the result of close pressure? Whatever the reason it's a terrific team moral and confidence booster.

At least 2 of those were our turning to kick quickly over the top or lateral without running far enough behind the mark BBO. Don't know about the others.

I also noticed we were quite slow/ hesitant executing our kicks once we played on. Saw Watts do this on one or two occasions. Could be a timing issue waiting for someone on the lead or to find a clear target but if there isn't then sometimes a quick long kick up the line might be the best option eh.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Rusty Nails

[Sir Why You Little 34,430]

34 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Memo to club:

Could players be instructed to display appropriate levels of looking guttedness after losing.

Thanks,

A Fan

Hahaha yeah

bit late by then. How bout during the game? During the 3rd Q...?

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

2 hours ago, Macca said:

Some of our players are ignoring some absolute basics when in the process of having a set shot for goal.  I see the same errors time and time again and it's as if they can't believe their good fortune in having that set shot ...

• Walking back with their backs to the goals (a no-no) ... every single moment counts when lining up for goal plus there's always a chance to dish the ball off to a player in a better position.
• Not trying to improve the angle of a shot ... walking backwards towards the opposition's far behind post should be the default move and we should be doing that 100% of the time.  The umpire may well be awake to the tactic but not always.

Also, a number of our forwards also get caught playing from behind far too much - but that's been an issue for years.  A good forward relishes the front position - all the great forwards have that instinct.  Of course, a forward doesn't have to be in front every time but must do when the ball comes in quickly or in a haphazard way.  Basics.

We don't get back quickly behind the mark quickly enough.

There was one instance where Petracca dawdled back behind the mark on the half forward flank.

Basic coaching, should never happen at AFL level.

[Binmans PA 25,976]

8 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

We don't get back quickly behind the mark quickly enough.

There was one instance where Petracca dawdled back behind the mark on the half forward flank.

Basic coaching, should never happen at AFL level.

Adelaide were getting back off the mark really quickly last night...

[Skuit 9,165]

45 minutes ago, A F said:

I agree. They did look gutted yesterday, but they didn't look gutted after the Geelong loss. I would have been.

Watts didn't look sufficiently gutted when he and Kent [censored] up that 2v1 in the goal-square. And after his slo-mo Captain [censored] Hollywood Stevie-J shot earlier in space. It nearly drove me to posting in the game-day thread, such was the level of my righteous anger.  

[Skuit 9,165]

6 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

At least 2 of those were our turning to kick quickly over the top or lateral without running far enough behind the mark BBO. Don't know about the others.  I also noticed we were quite slow/ hesitant executing our kicks once we played on. Saw Watts do this also on one or two occasions. Can't recall if he was smothered but i do recall one very close call or a touched off the boot (maybe).

Watts did get smothered at one stage from my recollections. And then put in an extra effort defensively to make amends. I think it was with a sideways kick across half back (but I may be wrong).

[DeeZone 7,701]

We left Freo's forward line wide open after we had hit the front with 2 minutes to go. We learn't nothing from the St Kilda fiasco!!!

[Binmans PA 25,976]

12 minutes ago, Skuit said:

Watts didn't look sufficiently gutted when he and Kent [censored] up that 2v1 in the goal-square. And after his slo-mo Captain [censored] Hollywood Stevie-J shot earlier in space. It nearly drove me to posting in the game-day thread, such was the level of my righteous anger.  

That wasn't Watts' fault. The fact Kent can't kick on his opposite side cost us that goal. I'd heard we'd been practicing that all pre-season.

[Skuit 9,165]

1 minute ago, A F said:

That wasn't Watts' fault. The fact Kent can't kick on his opposite side cost us that goal. I'd heard we'd been practicing that all pre-season.

I agree. But the wry smile afterwards annoyed me. And Watts maybe could have been more aware Kent couldn't make it happen from where he was?

Edited April 16, 2017 by Skuit

[Binmans PA 25,976]

9 minutes ago, Skuit said:

I agree. But the wry smile afterwards annoyed me. And Watts maybe could have been more aware Kent couldn't make it happen from where he was?

Kent's fault for mine. I didn't see the Watts smile.

[old dee 22,843]

40 minutes ago, Macca said:

I may be in the minority here with regards to ruckwork & taps to advantage. 

Gawn back to Spencer is a significant drop ... yesterday was a great example.  58 taps to 22 with many to their advantage (especially in the 3rd quarter)

You often only know the value of a great ruckman when you haven't got one.

I don't drink

I meant it in the sense of 'home-town' decisions ... which is a staple in sport re officiating. 

i.e.  ... in order to win against the WCE at Subiaco you need to be a much better team to start with (maybe not 10 goals better but better all the same)

I was having a small joke there Macca. Guess it missed the mark by some distance.

[defuture15 844]

Having seen the games against ess and carlton last year we have definitely improved in our talent and game plan but other teams seem to be bigger and stronger

than us. especially yesterday when trying to get out of the middle. Sandilands was too hard to stop and was the go to man on many occasions.

Stll seem to let other teams get us on the outside way to easy. Apart from garlett there was no forward pressure

[Go the Biff 3,127]

27 minutes ago, A F said:

Kent's fault for mine. I didn't see the Watts smile.

80% Kent. Jones can have the other 20% for his poor delivery to Kent while in the clear & under minimal or no pressure. Watts could do nothing in that instance

[Binmans PA 25,976]

25 minutes ago, defuture15 said:

Having seen the games against ess and carlton last year we have definitely improved in our talent and game plan but other teams seem to be bigger and stronger

than us. especially yesterday when trying to get out of the middle. Sandilands was too hard to stop and was the go to man on many occasions.

Stll seem to let other teams get us on the outside way to easy. Apart from garlett there was no forward pressure

There was a bit at the start of the last, but other than that, I'd probably agree.

[Go the Biff 3,127]

Punters can bemoan missing players be it from injury or suspension and blame that for the loss. They can whack the selection committee. They can point to players who had sub-par games. They can give (insert favourite whipping boy) a bake. Means nothing.

The 22 out there (or 21.5 according to OD) were good enough to get 27 points up a minute out from half time.

They were good enough to outscore Freo by 20 points in the last quarter

What happened in the third quarter is the real issue

Why were Freo able to walk the footy out of centre clearances ?

Why did our midfield, with the exception of Oliver drop their workrate ?

Why was no-one presenting as an option when we tried to exit from defence ?

That has to be the focus - fixing the things we do badly and at the moment it appears that going missing for extended periods heads the list

Like it or not we are still a developing side. We are still missing a few elements. But for the first time in a long time we are on the right path

Tigers next week. Bring it on