Terrorist attack on Canadian Mosque

[Biffen 12,323]

59 minutes ago, A F said:

You understand the links between white nationalism and Christianity right? You're right. I'm gonna make some assumptions about you. They wouldn't hurt you based on the fact that you're probably a white, heterosexual male. For anyone else falling outside of those boxes, they would. And it's less cutting off heads and more burning, hanging and shooting people. It sounds like you're more of a fan of the burning, hanging and shooting.

Where do you get these ridiculous assumptions from?"Sounds like" is something people use in the game of charades.I've already said I'm not overly patriotic.I'm also not a Christian .Its a massive jump to assume I'm a supporter of these groups that drape themselves in the flag and march in the city. 

I will say this though.

When these guys do go to protest they are met by larger groups who  are left wing radicals hell bent on not letting them have a voice ,which is not democratic.

The socialist,far left,loony fringe trip over themselves to get violent with the patriots ,not the other way around.

I don't know who is worse.

Campus life in the modern age has kids marching to stop free speech and quell debate like they would in China,such is thier conviction they are right.

Im yet to see anyone burnt ,hung or shot by the patriotic loony fringe .

I'll assume about you that you  have a university degree in some esoteric crap with a festering hatred of individual liberty bought on by a belief in communist politics you studied because you weren't smart enough to get into a decent course. 

Yesterday at Berkeley , kids burnt the campus and carried on in an effort to stop a speaker who supports Trump because he is incredibly eloquent,wealthy,popular and also happens to be gay.

Sexuality has naught to do with it but there are not to many "out" Muslims if you hadn't noticed.

I'll assume you're white and totally ashamed of it.

Your sexual preference is none of my business but it wouldn't surprise me if you joined a feminist group in a lame and lazy way to get some action.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Biffen

[Binmans PA 25,928]

1 hour ago, Biffen said:

Where do you get these ridiculous assumptions from?"Sounds like" is something people use in the game of charades.I've already said I'm not overly patriotic.I'm also not a Christian .Its a massive jump to assume I'm a supporter of these groups that drape themselves in the flag and march in the city. 

I will say this though.

When these guys do go to protest they are met by larger groups who  are left wing radicals hell bent on not letting them have a voice ,which is not democratic.

The socialist,far left,loony fringe trip over themselves to get violent with the patriots ,not the other way around.

Hang on. Nazis are patriots? Right. Okay. Matter of opinion there. They don't represent my country. My country is a place that welcomes diversity and has been enriched by it and strengthened by our difference. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. We are the lucky country. Doesn't mean I wouldn't want to change aspects about it though.

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I don't know who is worse.

Campus life in the modern age has kids marching to stop free speech and quell debate like they would in China,such is thier conviction they are right.

You have a racist opinion, don't sit on the fence. Own it. Or do you know it's not acceptable in a democratic society to champion white supremacy? Just because you're in a democracy and there is freedom of speech, doesn't give you the right to be a racist. It's funny how the Right are quite happy to dish out their racism, but the moment someone questions their views they think they're being 'quelled' or attacked. And the Left is referred to as soft. FCS.

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Im yet to see anyone burnt ,hung or shot by the patriotic loony fringe .

FCS. It was only these guys then, was it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan

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I'll assume about you that you  have a university degree in some esoteric crap with a festering hatred of individual liberty bought on by a belief in communist politics you studied because you weren't smart enough to get into a decent course. 

If I had a festering hatred of individual liberty, I wouldn't be for things like gay marriage or immigration. I'd say the definition of individual liberty would be... individual liberty. Liberty meaning "the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life". Or is the New Oxford American Dictionary fake news as well?

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Yesterday at Berkeley , kids burnt the campus and carried on in an effort to stop a speaker who supports Trump because he is incredibly eloquent,wealthy,popular and also happens to be gay.

Yiannopoulos' sexuality had nothing to do with why they tried to stop him from appearing. They protested, which is within their civil rights, to stop a sexist, racist, homophobe from sprouting his hateful views. Just because he thinks homosexuality is 'aberrant', doesn't mean everyone else does. But it's not surprising he believes homosexuality brings homosexuals 'pain and unhappiness', given how self-loathing he is and so apparently brainwashed by the conservative media that he's consumed.

And this is the problem with the Right. Like crazy little Tomi Lahren's, all you see is difference. Whereas the Left welcomes difference, hence its support and advocacy of marginalised and targeted communities and groups of people.

What I don't like from the Left is the assumption that because someone is gay, for example, that they should share the views of the Left. That is prescriptive and only ends in reinforcing those views in the person, however nonsensical they may be.

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Sexuality has naught to do with it but there are not to many "out" Muslims if you hadn't noticed.

I'll assume you're white and totally ashamed of it.

Your sexual preference is none of my business but it wouldn't surprise me if you joined a feminist group in a lame and lazy way to get some action.

I'm not a fan of religion. I'm atheist, so I don't agree with any religious chapter that doesn't allow a person to be out. But if you want to be religious, that's none of my business. It's when religion gets prescriptive that I have a problem. For example, why aren't we talking about the ridiculous and ineffective conversion therapy championed by Christians? Or is this just bash the Muslims day?

And I am a feminist, who's been dating the same woman since the second year of University. I don't feel like I'm being attacked because a woman is allowed a choice over her own reproductive rights and I don't feel any less a man because I believe a woman shouldn't have to pay more for her tampons, while I suffer no tax on condoms. 

As long as you don't sprout ignorant and hurtful abuse at people, I won't have a thing bad to say about you. Unless you mock my football team or support the opposition. Then you're in trouble.

Edited February 3, 2017 by A F

[Biffen 12,323]

2 hours ago, A F said:

Hang on. Nazis are patriots? Right. Okay. Matter of opinion there. They don't represent my country. My country is a place that welcomes diversity and has been enriched by it and strengthened by our difference. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. We are the lucky country. Doesn't mean I wouldn't want to change aspects about it though.

You have a racist opinion, don't sit on the fence. Own it. Or do you know it's not acceptable in a democratic society to champion white supremacy? Just because you're in a democracy and there is freedom of speech, doesn't give you the right to be a racist. It's funny how the Right are quite happy to dish out their racism, but the moment someone questions their views they think they're being 'quelled' or attacked. And the Left is referred to as soft. FCS.

FCS. It was only these guys then, was it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan

If I had a festering hatred of individual liberty, I wouldn't be for things like gay marriage or immigration. I'd say the definition of individual liberty would be... individual liberty. Liberty meaning "the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life". Or is the New Oxford American Dictionary fake news as well?

Yiannopoulos' sexuality had nothing to do with why they tried to stop him from appearing. They protested, which is within their civil rights, to stop a sexist, racist, homophobe from sprouting his hateful views. Just because he thinks homosexuality is 'aberrant', doesn't mean everyone else does. But it's not surprising he believes homosexuality brings homosexuals 'pain and unhappiness', given how self-loathing he is and so apparently brainwashed by the conservative media that he's consumed.

And this is the problem with the Right. Like crazy little Tomi Lahren's, all you see is difference. Whereas the Left welcomes difference, hence its support and advocacy of marginalised and targeted communities and groups of people.

What I don't like from the Left is the assumption that because someone is gay, for example, that they should share the views of the Left. That is prescriptive and only ends in reinforcing those views in the person, however nonsensical they may be.

I'm not a fan of religion. I'm atheist, so I don't agree with any religious chapter that doesn't allow a person to be out. But if you want to be religious, that's none of my business. It's when religion gets prescriptive that I have a problem. For example, why aren't we talking about the ridiculous and ineffective conversion therapy championed by Christians? Or is this just bash the Muslims day?

And I am a feminist, who's been dating the same woman since the second year of University. I don't feel like I'm being attacked because a woman is allowed a choice over her own reproductive rights and I don't feel any less a man because I believe a woman shouldn't have to pay more for her tampons, while I suffer no tax on condoms. 

As long as you don't sprout ignorant and hurtful abuse at people, I won't have a thing bad to say about you. Unless you mock my football team or support the opposition. Then you're in trouble.

Then we agree on many of the same things.You drew Nazism and  homosexuality into the debate, along with the KKK.

I'm not a fan of the Nazis or KKK or homophobia yet you drew an insidious parallel between my ideas and theirs. 

If, per chance, you could pull your head out of the campus " right on" mentality and see that what I stand for is total liberty, including every way of life, except those that destroy our hard won ideAls in Australia , you would see we are nearly on the same page.

When a Muslim is capable of free thought and the right to express ideas contrary to the book then we have won. You won't see it happen without some threat to this persons life.

Ive met a lot of gay men in Australia , many  love the Lebanese guys but they tell me they get a bit rough and violent in the toilets at nightclubs .

I don't see Milo Y as a self hater, he clearly loves himself which is not a terrible thing.Also there are an abundance of out gay men preaching the bible without death threats .Can you say the same for Muslims?

As far as feminism goes I would love the pill and abortion to be free, paid for by Medicare .It virtually is anyway here but not in the Middle East.Tell your wife about that and ask her if she would rather live there or here.

Nazis are patriots very clearly.

The groups supporting  a halt to Muslim immigration have stated their opposition to Nazism as well as Halal butchers operating here in contravention of our laws.They oppose Mosques being built here.

I would not associate myself with these groups because of the fringes you mention that attach themselves to their cause which is to stop Muslims entering here.

Now I will address your naming me as a racist. How dare you.You have the temerity and audacity to throw about labels without the self examination to see that you are as ignorant a, devicive and destructive as those you supposedly disagree with.

I don't disclose personal information on here about race or my lifestyle with good reason but if you came to my house or met my circle of friends you would see a plethora of different cultures,sexual proclivities, alternative thinkers and people without an ounce of hate.

I suggest you take a look in the mirror and see the idiocy of YOUR labels, your campus dogma and your ridiculous stereotyping.

Its this and those like you that have brought about Trumpism.

One thing Trump understands is that you are finished for the next decade or so .

I'm a man of my times.I'm a libertine free to do and think whatever I want whenever I chose as long as nobody is harmed in the process .

You are still clutching your worthless Uni degree as if the proletariat nonsense they taught you means something.

You stick up for yourself and your overeducated ,left leaning idiot friends, nobody else.

It is my goal to take the brain washed  ,Muslim,femme nazis like you and others like you gently by the hand and show you that others may not agree with you but we will fight for your right to believe your out dated nonsense.

Also, there are more important things happening today than sexual politics.

You might know that Australia and NZ were the first women to get the vote internationally.We are aware of difference and minority.

Did you know that people are bombing us in nightclubs,office towers, restaurants,city squares and cafes for our acceptance of women's right,gay people, alcohol,pork,Jews,,nudity,and free thought?

Have a good think about it before you reply.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Biffen
Because I can

[Jara 1,149]

On 3 February 2017 at 2:38 AM, Biffen said:

I suppose you've heard of Gallipoli ?That was the place where we fought the Turks allied with Germany inWW1.

Have you heard of Syria or Palestine, Lebanon,Libya,Tunisia or Egypt?Islamist countries.

That was where we fought Hitlers allies who identified with Nazism in WW2.

Ethnic cleansing in the Balkans was an attempt at retribution for Islamic atrocities committed over many centuries.

The Rwanda genocide was a tribal conflict so perhaps no Muslims to blame for that.

The other 3 points you  tried to make are flat out wrong.

 

 

Just revisiting this thread, but this is a totally weird post. What the hell are you trying to say?

 

That our 1915 invasion of Turkey, or the European conflicts that strayed into the Middle East in the 1940s,  had something to do with combatting Islamic fundamentalism? That the teenage boys slaughtered in Srebrenica were responsible for their own demise? 

Only bit that makes any sense at all was the bit about Rwanda.  

[Biffen 12,323]

2 hours ago, Jara said:

 

Just revisiting this thread, but this is a totally weird post. What the hell are you trying to say?

 

That our 1915 invasion of Turkey, or the European conflicts that strayed into the Middle East in the 1940s,  had something to do with combatting Islamic fundamentalism? That the teenage boys slaughtered in Srebrenica were responsible for their own demise? 

Only bit that makes any sense at all was the bit about Rwanda.  

So you read the whole thread except for post 45.

In relation to WW1, German expansion into Northern Africa played its role  in the conflicts.

Those states that sought to replace French and British colonial overlords with German liberators found themselves involved in both conflicts.

Read post 45.

[Binmans PA 25,928]

15 hours ago, Biffen said:

Then we agree on many of the same things.You drew Nazism and  homosexuality into the debate, along with the KKK.

I'm not a fan of the Nazis or KKK or homophobia yet you drew an insidious parallel between my ideas and theirs. 

If, per chance, you could pull your head out of the campus " right on" mentality and see that what I stand for is total liberty, including every way of life, except those that destroy our hard won ideAls in Australia , you would see we are nearly on the same page.

It seems like you stand for your own liberty, but like many sharing your views, clearly don't believe others are worthy of the same privileges. If you believed in total liberty you'd be saying that our borders should be completely opened and unvetted, because I don't think I have to cite the definition of liberty to someone who is a total libertarian. Or do I? Not even a crazy commie, you've insinuated my stance as being, believes we should have totally unvetted borders. In the modern age, it's an unfortunate byproduct of 9/11, that people have a right to feel safe and thus upon entering a country, everyone should be thoroughly checked - and held in humane living conditions, whilst those background checks are being carried out.

And I'd debate the 'hard won ideals'. A 50,000 year old society was almost crushed completely to allow us these 'hard won ideals'. So it wasn't that hard to win ideals. 

But the only people destroying our hard won ideals are neoliberal and centre right governments. The centre left in Western politics moved moderate in the late 80s. They represent the majority of people. The Liberals represent corporates. They don't represent small business owners, such as myself. That is an absolute fallacy and one that is continually rolled out. They are also historically the poorest economic managers in the history of our country. Here ya go. Enjoy: 

 

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When a Muslim is capable of free thought and the right to express ideas contrary to the book then we have won. You won't see it happen without some threat to this persons life.

What are you talking about? My uncle is a Muslim and he's happy to interpret the book whichever way he likes (hence the problem with ALL religions). Let me guess. All those "alternative thinkers" that you associate with are Muslims, Jews, Christians, atheists, right? Nah.

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Ive met a lot of gay men in Australia , many  love the Lebanese guys but they tell me they get a bit rough and violent in the toilets at nightclubs .

Congratulations. You've met some gay men. How very progressive of you.

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I don't see Milo Y as a self hater, he clearly loves himself which is not a terrible thing.Also there are an abundance of out gay men preaching the bible without death threats .Can you say the same for Muslims?

Once again... not saying I like radical Islam. Just putting it out there again, in case you missed it the last time I said it... in my previous post. 

And Milo Yiannopoulos is one of the more obvious cases of 101 defence mechanism in the world. Don't bag me, I'll bag myself first. Therefore you'll respect me. Noooope.

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As far as feminism goes I would love the pill and abortion to be free, paid for by Medicare .It virtually is anyway here but not in the Middle East.Tell your wife about that and ask her if she would rather live there or here.

Once again... I might quote myself because you seem to be having trouble keeping up. A F says: "I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. We are the lucky country."

Are you with me yet?

I abhor fundamentalist, conservative, violent and hateful religion of any kind.

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Nazis are patriots very clearly.

Nazis are patriots. Wow. Okay. I'll use another dictionary definition here. Patriot - "a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors". Let's use the German Jews as an example here. How were German Jews enemies or detractors of Germany and the German people? They were only enemies because Goebbels ran a wide-reaching propaganda smear campaign that pinned the German peoples problems on the Jewish people. Not only that, his ministry invented lies about a Jewish financial conspiracy. 

So the Jews were the scapegoats for Nazi Germany, as was anyone who wasn't white, heterosexual, and followed the party line.

This time, Muslims, the majority of whom are peaceful, law-abiding citizens have been made the scapegoats, by a white male fundamentalist Christian political class.

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The groups supporting  a halt to Muslim immigration have stated their opposition to Nazism as well as Halal butchers operating here in contravention of our laws.They oppose Mosques being built here.

Donald Trump failed to denounce David Duke and the KKK...
- http://edition.cnn.com/2016/02/28/politics/donald-trump-white-supremacists/
- http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/donald-trump-fails-to-denounce-former-kkk-leader-s-endorsement-633148995760

- http://time.com/4240268/donald-trump-kkk-david-duke/

The Liberals here have failed to denounced Donald Trump's xenophobic Muslim laws, which were today ruled by the Washington State Attorney General Bob Ferguson to be "illegal and unconstitutional". http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38864253

In fact, the Liberal Prime Minister old Malcolm the Ego said it was "not his job" to comment on Trump's fascist policies. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-30/turnbull-refuses-comment-on-trump-travel-ban/8222616

And why do I call these fascist policies? Here is the poster that the American Holocaust Museum is selling at the moment regarding the "Early Warning Signs of Fascism". Try disputing most of these (I'm sure you'll try):

http://www.dailydot.com/irl/early-signs-of-fascism-holocaust-museum/

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I would not associate myself with these groups because of the fringes you mention that attach themselves to their cause which is to stop Muslims entering here.

Now I will address your naming me as a racist. How dare you.You have the temerity and audacity to throw about labels without the self examination to see that you are as ignorant a, devicive and destructive as those you supposedly disagree with.

I don't disclose personal information on here about race or my lifestyle with good reason but if you came to my house or met my circle of friends you would see a plethora of different cultures,sexual proclivities, alternative thinkers and people without an ounce of hate.

I suggest you take a look in the mirror and see the idiocy of YOUR labels, your campus dogma and your ridiculous stereotyping.

I actually said you held a racist position. 

And you've further proved this by saying: "When a Muslim is capable of free thought and the right to express ideas contrary to the book then we have won. You won't see it happen without some threat to this persons life." Therefore, you've cast every Muslim in the same light. And very deliberately, unless you're unaware of what you're actually typing.

Let me define racism for you in two ways, both from the New Oxford American Dictionary:

1) the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

2) prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

Now, you might try and say, well, yeah, my position is better than cutting someone's head off in the Middle East and then, somehow cast me as championing that sort of violence. But this is where your racist position remains, in thinking that ALL Muslims will cut your head off. No. They won't. A very small portion are radical, and particularly given there are an estimated 1.6 billion Muslims as of 2010 (Source: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/), the amount who are violent is tiny.

Surely, you can see the double standard of failing to mention fundamentalist Christianity in this debate. And remember here, before you go off at me again, I am an atheist.

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Its this and those like you that have brought about Trumpism.

One thing Trump understands is that you are finished for the next decade or so .

The Right have very cleverly or stupidly, or maybe a bit of both, shaped this argument ever since Trump got in via the Electoral College system. It wasn't me who brought about massive job cuts, failing infrastructure and an underclass in America. It was an aggressive neoliberal political machine that has been going in tandem with Europe since Thatcher was in power. When self interest and the self is at the centre of every decision, most people are left behind. In fact, this is the basis for Ayn Rand's 'teachings' (if you can call them that) and the entire neoliberal movement. 

The thing that Trump and his team managed expertly, was to pin the blame, as Hitler did on the Jews, on the liberal media, liberals in general, even the GOP establishment, as well as Muslim people.

We were all the scapegoats this time and amazingly, people don't vote simply because their feelings have been hurt. They vote, as they have always done and will always do, in self interest and on the hip pocket.

They bought his lies about drowning the swamp of the corrupt 1% and richest, yet look what's happened. Cronyism is rampant already in this government. Trump even targeted Hillary for speaking at a Goldman Sachs function (http://www.ibtimes.com/political-capital/donald-trump-said-goldman-sachs-had-total-control-over-hillary-clinton-then), saying Goldman Sachs had "total control" over her and then appointed a former Goldman Sachs partner, Gary Cohn, to a position as a top economic advisor in his own administration (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-22/goldman-is-back-on-top-in-the-trump-administration). People have been duped and some of them, if you look across Twitter, are starting to realise this fact.

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I'm a man of my times.I'm a libertine free to do and think whatever I want whenever I chose as long as nobody is harmed in the process .

That's fine, but you understand people are being harmed on places like Manus Island, right? You know that Muslim Americans, even those holding green cards, are being harmed by these anti-immigration laws. You can see your 'liberty' to pick and choose who enters countries is harming people, right? Or maybe you can't. 

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You are still clutching your worthless Uni degree as if the proletariat nonsense they taught you means something.

You stick up for yourself and your overeducated ,left leaning idiot friends, nobody else.

Wow. You can't be over educated. That's something a fascist might say. Now careful, petal. I'm not calling you a fascist, I'm just saying that being educated isn't a bad thing. In fact, it's important. Fascists, for example, don't want their people educated, because education leads to questioning. And it's interesting, you throw all these words at me, but the moment I call you out, you break down and say how dare I.

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It is my goal to take the brain washed  ,Muslim,femme nazis like you and others like you gently by the hand and show you that others may not agree with you but we will fight for your right to believe your out dated nonsense.

I'll just make a quick point about the nonsensical term femme Nazi. So I'll go back to my education. And remember, I'm overeducated, and I'll use a dictionary again to back up my argument, rather than just basing things on fear and emotion. The definition of Nazi is: "a person who holds and acts brutally in accordance with extreme racist or authoritarian views." I'm sorry, but women's rights and their right to protest and demand equality is not authoritarian. Neither is their view to equality racist. Actually, this has nothing to do with it at all.

And outdated would mean things from the past, correct? Things that are no longer needed or should be changed. Given the wage gap has always been slanted in a male's direction; given most of the laws have been written by men; given most of society's 'outdated' social constructs have been based on texts written by men in a time when people were superstitious and before the proper advancement of science - I don't think you can say equality is outdated at all, because we've never had equality. The only people who are scared of equality are those who benefit or think they benefit from the current inequitable paradigm. 

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Also, there are more important things happening today than sexual politics.

There might be more important things happening to you, but ask most women whether they like it when men have a say over their reproductive rights, or when they have to pay tax on tampons as a necessary item.

It's all lovely to be a libertarian knight in shining armour if you're just going to be a selfish person, but while you're worrying about all those terrorist attacks we've had on Australian soil since 9/11, please let a woman decide whether she'd like to express her own liberty and protest an inequitable situation. That's liberty.

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You might know that Australia and NZ were the first women to get the vote internationally.We are aware of difference and minority.

Yes, we did manage that terrific feat. So that's enough equality for you is it? Of course it is. Because you're only thinking about yourself and your own interests. If you want to be selfish, go and be selfish, but don't impose upon other people their right to fight for equality and their own liberty.

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Did you know that people are bombing us in nightclubs,office towers, restaurants,city squares and cafes for our acceptance of women's right,gay people, alcohol,pork,Jews,,nudity,and free thought?

Have a good think about it before you reply.

Sorry? We're being bombed? Have you been reading Australia's answer to Breitbart? Where are we being bombed in Australia? The only person trying to bomb us is Gina Rinehart. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/feb/08/gina-rinehart-australian-mining-magnate "She once looked into the feasibility of using a nuclear bomb to create a harbour on the north-west coast of Australia".

You've been had by politicians and a right wing media machine of Rupert Murdoch that's told you to fear Muslims, when in actual fact, you're far more likely to be killed by a white supremacist and other radical non-Muslim extremists than a jihadist. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html?_r=0 

And that is the danger of being 'overeducated'. You learn things that disprove fearful and socially controlling conspiracy theories that are aimed to keep a select few on top. You can't just decry an entire religion of people on a feeling that you might have picked up in a media that consistently pedals anti-Muslim sentiment. You need facts. Something that in a post-Truth world, the Right side of politics make up on the fly. Like, for example, the 'Bowling Green Massacre' that even the Murdoch press has denounced. http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/truth-behind-the-bowling-green-massacre-described-by-trump-aide-kellyanne-conway-that-never-really-happened/news-story/187db0692bb8f429bbd9b63e4b037a6f

Edited February 4, 2017 by A F

[Biffen 12,323]

5 minutes ago, A F said:

It seems like you stand for your own liberty, but like many sharing your views, clearly don't believe others are worthy of the same privileges. If you believed in total liberty you'd be saying that our borders should be completely opened and vetted, because I don't think I have to cite the definition of liberty to someone who is a total libertarian. Or do I? Not even a crazy commie, you've insinuated my stance as being, believes we should have totally unvetted borders. In the modern age, it's an unfortunate byproduct of 9/11, that people have a right to feel safe and thus upon entering a country, everyone should be thoroughly checked - and held in humane living conditions, whilst those background checks are being carried out.

And I'd debate the 'hard won ideals'. The only people destroying our hard won ideals are neoliberal and centre right governments. The centre left in Western politics moved moderate in the late 80s. They represent the majority of people. The Liberals represent corporates. They don't represent small business owners, such as myself. That is a absolute fallacy and one that is continually rolled out. They are also historically the poorest economic managers in the history of our country. Here ya go. Enjoy: 

 

What are you talking about? My uncle is a Muslim and he's happy to interpret the book whatever way he likes (hence the problem with ALL religions). Let me guess. All those "alternative thinkers" that you associate with are Muslims, Jews, Christians, atheists, right? Nah.

Congratulations. You've met some gay men. How very progressive of you.

Once again... not saying I like radical Islam. Just putting it out there again, in case you missed it the last time I said it... it my previous post. 

And Milo Yiannopoulos is one of the more obvious cases of 101 defence mechanism in the world. Don't bag me, I'll bag myself first. Therefore you'll respect me. Noooope.

Once again... I might quote myself because you seem to be having trouble keeping up. A F says: "I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. We are the lucky country."

Are you with me yet?

I abhor fundamentalist, conservative, violent and hateful religion of any kind.

Nazis are patriots. Okay. I'll use another dictionary definition here. Patriot - "a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors". Let's use the German Jews as an example here. How were German Jews enemies or detractors of Germany and the German people? They were only enemies because Goebbels ran a wide-reaching propaganda smear campaign that pinned the German peoples problems on the Jewish people. Not only that, his ministry invented lies about a Jewish financial conspiracy. 

So the Jews were the scapegoats for Nazi Germany, as was anyone who wasn't white and heterosexual, and followed the party line. This time, Muslims, the majority of whom are peaceful, law-abiding citizens have been made the scapegoats, but a white male fundamentalist Christian political class.

Donald Trump failed to denounce David Duke and the KKK...
- http://edition.cnn.com/2016/02/28/politics/donald-trump-white-supremacists/
- http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/donald-trump-fails-to-denounce-former-kkk-leader-s-endorsement-633148995760

- http://time.com/4240268/donald-trump-kkk-david-duke/

The Liberals here have failed to denounced Donald Trump's xenophobic Muslim laws, which were today ruled by the Washington State Attorney General Bob Ferguson to be "illegal and unconstitutional". http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38864253

In fact, the Liberal Prime Minister said "not his job" to comment on Trump's fascist policies. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-30/turnbull-refuses-comment-on-trump-travel-ban/8222616

And why do I call these fascist policies? Here is the poster that the American Holocaust Museum is selling at the moment regarding the "Early Warning Signs of Fascism". Try disputing most of these (I'm sure you'll try):

http://www.dailydot.com/irl/early-signs-of-fascism-holocaust-museum/

I actually said you held a racist position. 

And you've further proved this by saying: "When a Muslim is capable of free thought and the right to express ideas contrary to the book then we have won. You won't see it happen without some threat to this persons life." Therefore, you've cast every Muslim in the same light. And very deliberately, unless you're unaware of what you're actually typing.

Let me define racism for you in two ways, both from the New Oxford American Dictionary:

1) the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

2) prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

Now, you might try and say, well, yeah, your position is better than cutting someone's head off in the Middle East and then somehow cast me as championing that sort of violence. But this is where your racist position remains, in thinking that ALL Muslims will cut your head off in the Middle East. No. They won't. A very small portion, and particularly given there are an estimated 1.6 billion Muslims as of 2010 (Source: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/).

Surely, you can see the double standard of failing to mention fundamentalist Christianity in this debate. And remember here, before you go off at me again, I am an atheist.

The Right have very cleverly or stupidly, or maybe a bit of both, shaped this argument ever since Trump got in via the Electoral College system. It wasn't me who brought about massive job cuts, failing infrastructure and an underclass. It was an aggressive neoliberal political machine that has been going in tandem with Europe since Thatcher was in power. When self interest and the self is at the centre of every decision people are left behind. In fact, this is the basis for Ayn Rand's 'teachings' (if you can call them that) and the entire neoliberal movement. 

The thing that Trump and his team managed expertly, was to pin the blame, as Hitler did on the Jews, on the liberal media, liberals in general, even the GOP establishment, as well as the Muslims. We were all the scapegoats this time and amazingly, people don't vote simply because their feelings have been hurt. They vote, as they have always done and will always do, in self interest and on the hip pocket.

They bought his lies about drowning the swamp of the 1% and richest, yet look what's happened. Cronyism is rampant already in this government. Trump even targeted Hillary for speaking at a Goldman Sachs function (http://www.ibtimes.com/political-capital/donald-trump-said-goldman-sachs-had-total-control-over-hillary-clinton-then), saying Goldman Sachs had "total control" over here and then appointed a former Goldman Sachs partner, Gary Cohn, to a position as a top economic advisor in his administration (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-22/goldman-is-back-on-top-in-the-trump-administration). People have been duped and some of them, if you look across Twitter, are starting to realise this fact.

That's fine, but you understand people are being harmed on places like Manus Island, right? You know that Muslim Americans, even those holding green cards, are being harmed by these anti-immigration laws. You can see your 'liberty' to pick and choose who enters countries is harming people, right? Or maybe you can't. 

Wow. You can't be over educated. Something a fascist might say. Now careful petal. I'm not calling you a fascist, I'm just saying that being educated is important. Fascists, for example, don't want their people educated, because education leads to questioning. And it's interesting, you throw all these words at me, but the moment I call you out, you break down and say how dare I.

I'll just make a quick point about the nonsensical term femme Nazi. So I'll go back to my education. And remember, I'm overeducated, and I'll use a dictionary again to back up my argument, rather than just basing things on fear and emotion. The definition of Nazi is: "a person who holds and acts brutally in accordance with extreme racist or authoritarian views." I'm sorry, but women's rights and their right to protest and demand equality is not authoritarian. Neither is their view to equality racist. In fact, this has nothing to do with it at all.

And outdated would mean things from the past, correct? Things that are no longer needed or should be changed. Given the wage gap has always been slanted in a male's direction; given most of the laws have been written by men; given most of society's 'outdated' social constructs have been based on texts written by men in a time when people were superstitious and before the proper advancement of science - I don't think you can say equality is outdated at all, because we've never had equality. The only people who are scared of equality are those who benefit or think they benefit from the current inequitable paradigm. 

There might be more important things happening to you, but ask most women whether they like it when men have a say over their reproductive rights, or when they have to pay tax on tampons as a necessary item. It's all lovely to be a libertarian knight in armour if you're just going to be a selfish person, but while you're worrying about all those terrorist attacks we've had on Australian soil since 9/11, please let a woman decide whether she'd like to express her own liberty and protest an inequitable situation.

Yes, we did manage that terrific feat. So that's enough equity for you is it? Of course it is. Because you're only thinking about yourself and your own interests. If you want to be selfish go and be selfish, but don't impose upon other people their right to fight for equality and their own liberty.

Sorry? We're being bombed? Have you been reading Australia's answer to Breitbart? Where are we being bombed in Australia? The only person trying to bomb us is Gina Rinehart. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/feb/08/gina-rinehart-australian-mining-magnate "She once looked into the feasibility of using a nuclear bomb to create a harbour on the north-west coast of Australia".

You've been had by politicians and a right wing media machine of Rupert Murdoch that's told you to fear Muslims, when in actual fact, you're far more likely to be killed by a white supremacist and other radical non-Muslim extremists than a jihadist. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html?_r=0 

And that is the danger of being 'overeducated'. You learn things that disprove fearful and socially controlling conspiracy theories that are aimed to keep a select few on top. You can't just decry an entire religion of people on a feeling that you might have picked up in a media that consistently pedals anti-Muslim sentiment. You need facts. Something that in a post-Truth world, the Right side of politics make up on the fly. Like, for example, the 'Bowling Green Massacre' that even the Murdoch press has denounced. http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/truth-behind-the-bowling-green-massacre-described-by-trump-aide-kellyanne-conway-that-never-really-happened/news-story/187db0692bb8f429bbd9b63e4b037a6f

Well cut and pasted.

You don't possess the ability to think for yourself .

Ive told you I'm an atheist,not Christian,not KKK,not a Nazi.

Everything you've posted I've read before yet you attempt to hijack gay rights,women's rights,fake news ,anti Nazism and every other cause célèbre for your multiple band wagon of sympathy.

It doesn't work any more son.

The grown ups have decided in nearly every western democracy there is.

We cannot tolerate the blind dogma and Taqiya dupes like you spout in the face of Islamist hostility to our freedoms.

My qualm is with the doctrines of the Quran and the Hadiths.More closely to home- the Bali bombings,

The other stuff you raise is as relevant to me as a recitation of "The Female Eunich at  a bux party.

You won't have the intellect to survive , let alone pay your hecs debt without a govt grant

One piece of personal info I'll share is that I I was partnered to the former President of Melb uni feminist organisation and she was African.

We lived together for two years and I supported her through barrister school.

She couldn't argue herself out of a paper bag and like you is a time wasting,self indulgent,holier than thou attention seeker with a grab bag of notable causes I knew before I finished high school.

You are not over educated, you are just a tax burden.

Do something useful with yourself by educating Muslims to the disgusting precept and conceits contained in the book.

Argue the unifying texts of Islam and not all the other non sequiturs carp you think is useful knowledge.Next time reply with some immediacy. Try trusting your own brain and stick to the subject.

[Binmans PA 25,928]

1 hour ago, Biffen said:

Well cut and pasted.

You don't possess the ability to think for yourself .

Ive told you I'm an atheist,not Christian,not KKK,not a Nazi.

Everything you've posted I've read before yet you attempt to hijack gay rights,women's rights,fake news ,anti Nazism and every other cause célèbre for your multiple band wagon of sympathy.

It doesn't work any more son.

The grown ups have decided in nearly every western democracy there is.

We cannot tolerate the blind dogma and Taqiya dupes like you spout in the face of Islamist hostility to our freedoms.

My qualm is with the doctrines of the Quran and the Hadiths.More closely to home- the Bali bombings,

The other stuff you raise is as relevant to me as a recitation of "The Female Eunich at  a bux party.

You won't have the intellect to survive , let alone pay your hecs debt without a govt grant

One piece of personal info I'll share is that I I was partnered to the former President of Melb uni feminist organisation and she was African.

We lived together for two years and I supported her through barrister school.

She couldn't argue herself out of a paper bag and like you is a time wasting,self indulgent,holier than thou attention seeker with a grab bag of notable causes I knew before I finished high school.

You are not over educated, you are just a tax burden.

Do something useful with yourself by educating Muslims to the disgusting precept and conceits contained in the book.

Argue the unifying texts of Islam and not all the other non sequiturs carp you think is useful knowledge.Next time reply with some immediacy. Try trusting your own brain and stick to the subject.

Right. You don't appear to listen to reason or logic, yet you started the thread to debate a point. If you don't wish to actually engage on any of these issues and just throw insults instead, it's pretty pointless. You're just after an echo chamber, which I'm not going to provide you, nor is Demonland, to be honest.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that.

[Biffen 12,323]

So AF,

The one issue facing modern,secular society is the medieval doctrine that seeks to destroy the other things you mentioned .

You will see it questioned and fall to pieces in the next decade .

Concentate on questioning what  you learnt whilst others did actual work to pay for your impressive knowledge of how terrible the white straight man is.

You might be ok defending all this colonialist,capitalist ,conservative science one day . 

Keep an open mind Tiger.

[Jara 1,149]

Hey Biff my trouble with much of what you say is that it generalises Muslims.  I've got so many Muslim friends, colleagues (and even a relative) who share almost all of my liberal beliefs, and who are decent, loving people. Many of them were born here.

 

when you make these sweeping statements, you are alienating and demonising them, making it, I imagine, more likely that their offspring will be more radicalised. 

 

Theres only one one solution to the current situation: that we all work to communicate with each other.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

15 minutes ago, Jara said:

Hey Biff my trouble with much of what you say is that it generalises Muslims.  I've got so many Muslim friends, colleagues (and even a relative) who share almost all of my liberal beliefs, and who are decent, loving people. Many of them were born here.

 

when you make these sweeping statements, you are alienating and demonising them, making it, I imagine, more likely that their offspring will be more radicalised. 

 

Theres only one one solution to the current situation: that we all work to communicate with each other.

Jara aren't you generalising Muslims by saying their alienated and demonised offspring are more likely to be radicalised?

[Biffen 12,323]

18 minutes ago, Jara said:

Hey Biff my trouble with much of what you say is that it generalises Muslims.  I've got so many Muslim friends, colleagues (and even a relative) who share almost all of my liberal beliefs, and who are decent, loving people. Many of them were born here.

 

when you make these sweeping statements, you are alienating and demonising them, making it, I imagine, more likely that their offspring will be more radicalised. 

 

Theres only one one solution to the current situation: that we all work to communicate with each other.

My trouble is they alienate and stereotype themselves by believing such nonsense.

if they don't really believe it all they should say so but of course the penalty for that is death.

Of course I know they can't ALL be hardliners.

There is no justification for the recent actions of their brethren and those who have some reason in their heads need to challenge the text or else teach it somewhere else.

If I were to preach the things written in that text I would be quite rightly imprisoned.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Biffen

[Biffen 12,323]

 

[Jara 1,149]

18 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

Jara aren't you generalising Muslims by saying their alienated and demonised offspring are more likely to be radicalised?

Hey wrecker

 

No, I don't think so. I'm not saying that they're all going to be radicalised  - I just said "more likely" Didn't put a number on it, cos I've got no idea. Just off the top of my head, there's been - what?  60 or so Muslims on terrorist charges, so obviously more likely than Buddhists or Jains.

 

Saying that the more widespread and unfair criticism they receive as a community, the greater the chance that some will be radicalised, just seems like common sense to me. 

 

Im as worried about Fundamental Islam as anybody, but I can't see any solution to it other than communication and friendship. 

 

 

[Biffen 12,323]

13 hours ago, Jara said:

Hey wrecker

 

No, I don't think so. I'm not saying that they're all going to be radicalised  - I just said "more likely" Didn't put a number on it, cos I've got no idea. Just off the top of my head, there's been - what?  60 or so Muslims on terrorist charges, so obviously more likely than Buddhists or Jains.

 

Saying that the more widespread and unfair criticism they receive as a community, the greater the chance that some will be radicalised, just seems like common sense to me. 

 

Im as worried about Fundamental Islam as anybody, but I can't see any solution to it other than communication and friendship. 

 

 

"Communication and friendship" with a fundamentalist Islamist? We've tried that in Afghanistan .

I think it's "eye for an eye " time.

[Jara 1,149]

What the...? 

 

Invading a a country is "communication and friendship"?

 

Are you proposing "eye for an eye" with my Nephew-in-law who works as an electrical engineer for a major company and who happens to have been born Muslim?

 

ive no problem with "eye for an eye" if you get the bad guy's eye, but I'm not that impressed when you get his neighbour's (ie invading Iraq was about the worst piece  of idiotic warmongering I've seen in my lifetime; all it did was ramp up fundamentalism)

 

 

[Biffen 12,323]

38 minutes ago, Jara said:

What the...? 

 

Invading a a country is "communication and friendship"?

 

Are you proposing "eye for an eye" with my Nephew-in-law who works as an electrical engineer for a major company and who happens to have been born Muslim?

 

ive no problem with "eye for an eye" if you get the bad guy's eye, but I'm not that impressed when you get his neighbour's (ie invading Iraq was about the worst piece  of idiotic warmongering I've seen in my lifetime; all it did was ramp up fundamentalism)

 

 

Yes I clearly said let's go get Jaras nephew in law .

I admit invading Iraq was insane.

Afghanistan and Pakistan were training up more Jihadists if you recall.

I remember the time when Al Queda destroyed the huge Buddhas carved into those cliff faces in Afghanistan .They were about 3500 years older than Islam itself.

That was just before 9/11.

Do you suggest we sit back and watch it all happen ?

 

[Ethan Tremblay 28,341]

10 minutes ago, Biffen said:

Yes I clearly said let's go get Jaras nephew in law .

I admit invading Iraq was insane.

Afghanistan and Pakistan were training up more Jihadists if you recall.

I remember the time when Al Queda destroyed the huge Buddhas carved into those cliff faces in Afghanistan .They were about 3500 years older than Islam itself.

That was just before 9/11.

Do you suggest we sit back and watch it all happen ?

 

If we could shoot the extremists with some sort of gun that fires hugs and love, then we could save the world. 

Edited February 6, 2017 by Ethan Tremblay

[Binmans PA 25,928]

14 minutes ago, Biffen said:

Yes I clearly said let's go get Jaras nephew in law .

I admit invading Iraq was insane.

Afghanistan and Pakistan were training up more Jihadists if you recall.

I remember the time when Al Queda destroyed the huge Buddhas carved into those cliff faces in Afghanistan .They were about 3500 years older than Islam itself.

That was just before 9/11.

Do you suggest we sit back and watch it all happen ?

 

You've shifted your argument again, son. Are we talking about border protection/keeping Muslims out or are we talking about going to war in the Middle East? 

[Binmans PA 25,928]

On 2/6/2017 at 6:12 PM, Ethan Tremblay said:

If we could shoot the extremists with some sort of gun that fires hugs and love, then we could save the world. 

Yeah, because that's always been the argument, hasn't it, Ethan.

Here we go. Let's try this. Radicalised Muslims (tiny minority), peaceful Muslims (vast majority). You won't find many people/anyone arguing that fundamentalist Islam is a good thing. But what also happens when you blindly go into countries and bomb them, is that they tend to lead to proving what the fundamentalists are saying about the war-mongering Americans and the West. It creates radicalised pockets of the Muslim world that wouldn't be otherwise and the killing and terror continues.

Not to mention that every time, historically, forces have invaded the Middle East, it has created a vacuum for a much more radical Islam. When Reagan had the CIA operating in Afghanistan and helping the resistance to overthrow the Russian occupation, as soon as the Russians left, the same forces that the Americans had trained formed the Taliban and came back to get the Americans. Every time you bomb places mindlessly, you create more terrorists. It's actually that simple.

It's the major reason why the Right kept saying Clinton was going to cause World War 3, because she had a fascination with bringing down the al-Assad regime in Syria. He, by the way, is a bloodthirsty tyrant, as bad, if not worse than Saddam. As was his father.

Anyhow, the Americans under Obama fought Syria by proxy, but even if they'd overthrown al-Assad, that would only have created a vacuum for ISIS to take control. But now that Trump's in power, everyone on the Right is okay with an invasion in the Middle East or a war in the South China Sea. Hypocrisy central. 

Oh and Trump cosying up to the Russians is insane, as they've been backing al-Assad's regime in Syria and Syria's mortal enemy is Saudi Arabia, who is probably America's closest ally in the Middle East. It is not going to end well.

Edited February 7, 2017 by A F

[Biffen 12,323]

6 minutes ago, A F said:

You've shifted your argument again, son. Are we talking about border protection/keeping Muslims out or are we talking about going to war in the Middle East? 

You've interloped with a Dorothy Dixer again Tiger.

We civilised communities are both attempting to contain radical Islam and stop them from living amongst us.

The argument that our western policy makers have exascerbated radicalism is a furphy.

Stone age cultures only understand might so now we are delivering it to them.

They still don't understand drones and satellite technology either .As evidenced by the silly bearded men stocking up on and aiming shoulder mounted RPGs  at us before disappearing into a dust cloud.

 

[Binmans PA 25,928]

7 minutes ago, Biffen said:

You've interloped with a Dorothy Dixer again Tiger.

We civilised communities are both attempting to contain radical Islam and stop them from living amongst us.

The argument that our western policy makers have exascerbated radicalism is a furphy.

Stone age cultures only understand might so now we are delivering it to them.

They still don't understand drones and satellite technology either .As evidenced by the silly bearded men stocking up on and aiming shoulder mounted RPGs  at us before disappearing into a dust cloud.

 

What are you basing this on? Fear and emotion? Sounds like your MO, old chap.

[Biffen 12,323]

AF, 

Its disengenuous to keep blaming a tiny minority.

1.7 billion read the book delivered by Gabriel to Mohamed .

Every Mosque in 57 Muslim countries ,plus other countries that let them live amongst us ,starts their Friday night prayer that goes something along the lines of "Lord deliver us victory of the Kaffurs"

Well the kaffurs are a bit over it now .

50 per cent of Muslims think violent Jihad is justified in Western countries.

80 per cent think homosexuals should be executed in Western countries.

The figures are higher in Islamic countries.

1 per cent of 1.7 billion is 17 million psychotic scumbags.

Thats no small figure,and its likely to be more.

[Biffen 12,323]

7 minutes ago, A F said:

What are you basing this on? Fear and emotion? Sounds like your MO, old chap.

Isn't it our fault?

Edited February 6, 2017 by Biffen

[Binmans PA 25,928]

39 minutes ago, Biffen said:

AF, 

Its disengenuous to keep blaming a tiny minority.

1.7 billion read the book delivered by Gabriel to Mohamed .

Every Mosque in 57 Muslim countries ,plus other countries that let them live amongst us ,starts their Friday night prayer that goes something along the lines of "Lord deliver us victory of the Kaffurs"

Well the kaffurs are a bit over it now .

50 per cent of Muslims think violent Jihad is justified in Western countries.

80 per cent think homosexuals should be executed in Western countries.

The figures are higher in Islamic countries.

1 per cent of 1.7 billion is 17 million psychotic scumbags.

Thats no small figure,and its likely to be more.

Lol. Where are you pulling these stats from?